Another Question on Sola Fide

[fabsooi]

I was having a conversation with a Protestant friend. If a person who leads a sinful life but before his death, repents and accepts Christ, does he receive salvation? If this is the case, how does this coincide with the Catholic view of salvation where faith and works is required.

 

[FightingFat]

I would say that it’s up to God; if his repentence is sincere, God, who sees into all men’s hearts would see that and would forgive him.

 

[Nicene]

fabsooi:

I was having a conversation with a Protestant friend. If a person who leads a sinful life but before his death, repents and accepts Christ, does he receive salvation? If this is the case, how does this coincide with the Catholic view of salvation where faith and works is required.

We do so to the best of our ability. For example if someone accepts Christ and lives for 30 years he should be doing the will of God.

But the thief on the cross is the best example of repentance and recieving salvation. He did what was required by Christ, He believed, repented and asked forgiveness. He didn’t have time to do works (the will of the Father).

Catholics view faith as a lifelong journey, certain protestants, a one time stopgap event. Faith alone doesn’t mean the same thing to all protestants, but it’s a slogan that is hard to let go regardless.

Ask in return, how does faith alone attain one salvation if you aren’t going to follow Christ’s commands for the next 30 years? If they ignore what Christ has asked them to do and don’t avail of graces given by Christ they are going to be in for a big surprise Mt 25:31-46 as well as Mt 7:21-23.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[tdandh26]

Nicene:

We do so to the best of our ability. For example if someone accepts Christ and lives for 30 years he should be doing the will of God.

But the thief on the cross is the best example of repentance and recieving salvation. He did what was required by Christ, He believed, repented and asked forgiveness. He didn’t have time to do works (the will of the Father).

Catholics view faith as a lifelong journey, certain protestants, a one time stopgap event. Faith alone doesn’t mean the same thing to all protestants, but it’s a slogan that is hard to let go regardless.

Ask in return, how does faith alone attain one salvation if you aren’t going to follow Christ’s commands for the next 30 years? If they ignore what Christ has asked them to do and don’t avail of graces given by Christ they are going to be in for a big surprise Mt 25:31-46 as well as Mt 7:21-23.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

I agree, just a side note. Sorrow and repentance is an act of the will thus it is in itself a work. For God wills not the death of the sinner.

 

[AquinasXVI]

Let’s say this happens to Tony Soprano.

His time in purgatory would possibly be a lot harder than the cloistered nun who gave her life to Christ and grew in virtue…

It’s a matter of the state of the soul.

in XT.

 

[jimmy]

fabsooi:

I was having a conversation with a Protestant friend. If a person who leads a sinful life but before his death, repents and accepts Christ, does he receive salvation? If this is the case, how does this coincide with the Catholic view of salvation where faith and works is required.

Read 1Corinthians13. Paul says there are three things, the most important is love. Without love you have nothing. Faith means nothing without love. If a man sins all his life and one day has a conversion and he begins to love God he will certainly be saved. Love is the essence of all good works. Love is the work. You don’t have to do what mother Teresa did. Love is a good act in itself. Don’t think that you can avoid that work and still claim to love, those outward works are the fruit of love(not the fruit of faith).

 

[Thal59]

The real answer is God’s alone, so you will never get a definitive answer to your question. But one can attempt to understand the issue this way:

“If a man turns from wickedness to righteousness, and I see he has turned, he shall not die and I will remember his sins no more.
If a man turns from righteousness to wickedness, and I see he has turned, dying he shall die the death and I will remember his justices no more.”

Flavius Josephus remarked how a man being cured of an illness was like a man who was forgiven his sin; both require a period of time to regain full health and strength.

The problem with leading a sinful ife and then turning to Jesus on one’s death bed is that one has not let God “see” the turning of one’s lifestyle as in the first quote, nor has he “shown” over time that he is serious about his repentence giving him time to obtain and grow in grace. The Protestant, of course, will say that God will look into the man’s heart, see that he is sincere, and he will be saved.

I have always wondered why God can never look into the heart of the death bed conversion and see a coward who is simply trying to save his rear end now that he has no choice.

Thal59

 

[Godfrey]

If someone can deny God on their deathbed, they can accept him there too

God knows the hearts of men and no one else
He will always judge justly and fairly and is merciful

This is a classic question posed, but it is almost non-reality and purely theoretical. Who really operates in life this way?

A good gambler wouldn’t even bet his salvation on that chance to do it just before he died!

I feel it could happen for a few sincere, but as scripture says, if we know to do good and don’t do it, it is a sin.

Peace

 

[Pax]

fabsooi:

I was having a conversation with a Protestant friend. If a person who leads a sinful life but before his death, repents and accepts Christ, does he receive salvation? If this is the case, how does this coincide with the Catholic view of salvation where faith and works is required.

Please keep in mind that although faith is gift by way of God’s grace that it is also a work. Believing is something we do. Scripture even says that faith is a work. Please note the following:

In John’s vision in the book of Revelation, Jesus warns members of the church at Ephesus that they might be destroyed if they do not repent and return to the love they once had. This is very clear in Rev 2:4-5 where Jesus says, “But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.” Then again just before addressing the transgressions of the church at Thyatira, Jesus says in Rev 2:19 that, "**I know your works, your love and faith ** and service and patient endurance, and that your latter works exceed the first." These verses are significant in two ways. They show the necessity of love in the plan of salvation, and they show that both love and faith are referred to as works.

Paul teaches that faith and love are works in 1st Thessalonians 1:2-3 where he says, " We always give thanks to God for all of you and mention you in our prayers, constantly remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ."

This linkage is also made by Paul in Galatians 5:6 where we read, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, **but faith working ** through love.”

John 6:27-28
Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For it is on him that God the Father has set his seal." Then they said to him, “What must we do to perform the works of God?” Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

 

[FightingFat]

AquinasXVI:

Let’s say this happens to Tony Soprano.

His time in purgatory would possibly be a lot harder than the cloistered nun who gave her life to Christ and grew in virtue…

It’s a matter of the state of the soul.

in XT.

LOL!!!

Brilliant post!

 

[mozart-250]

I was gonna start another thread, but I will put it here…

How does the Catholic view assurance of salvation (from a non Catholic)?

I was reading a thread somewhere with real troubling answers. Hypothetical: a guy was faithful all of his life go God and missed mass say after 40 years of being a Christian. He walked to the store and was struck dead hit a car. The consesus was this guy goes directly do hell…do not pass go…not not collect $200 bucks.

Now I am not an eternally secure calvinist by any stretch, but the implications of this are staggering.

I hope I have this wrong, but this reads to me that to the Catholic, your eternal destination is like a light bulb…heaven one minute…hell the next minute…all depends on the timing of your death…if it just happens to be before you go to confession after committing a mortal sin…sorry you’re out of luck.

This mindset would drive me nuts. I think this mindset would lead me to despair and an ultimate loss of faith. I might not be eternally secure, but it would seem to me that “now security” is a good thing.

(and to be fair I remember of hearing this mindset from a not-Catholic with the statement “If you sin and the rapture comes you are not going up”)

 

[Yerusalyim]

I was having a conversation with a Protestant friend. If a person who leads a sinful life but before his death, repents and accepts Christ, does he receive salvation? If this is the case, how does this coincide with the Catholic view of salvation where faith and works is required

This question is based on a faulty premise, that the Church teaches that works are a part of Salvation. The Catholic Church has consistently taught that salvation is a free gift from God that can not be earned. Works are a RESULT of faith, and our reward in heaven will, in part, be based upon what we do. But PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don’t get stuck in the Protestant idea of Catholicism…the Church teaches salvation is a free gift, not that we earn it.

 

[Flopfoot]

To Mozart

Short answer - No, it is not like a lightbulb turning on and off just by luck and the flick of a switch. If you go to hell, you deserved it.

How does that fit with the story about the man getting run over by the car after missing mass? Well, if missing mass was a mortal sin for that man, that means that he must have known that it was wrong (full knowledge) and deliberately did it when nothing was forcing him to (full consent) - this also means if he has a good reason for missing mass, or doesn’t do it on purpose as it is a case of bad memory, then it’s not necessarily full consent due to mitigating circumstances hence not necessarily a mortal sin. Since he is/was a good Catholic, he knows that missing mass will offend God and he even knows that he can get sent to hell for it! So this man is not ‘merely’ missing mass, he is thumbing his nose at God in the greatest ever sign of disrespect since the pro-abortion movement. To do something like this, he has obviously had one heck of a change of heart, turning away from God, in just a week. What if he had missed mass in one moment of weakness, and regretted it (but too late, mass was already over)? Well if he regretted it then he has had a change of heart and repented, probably turned his heart back to God. This can even happen just as he’s about to get hit by the bus and he realises he was a fool to offend God and repents in a split second. Thal59 calls this ‘a coward trying to save his own skin’ but I think that actually what happens is that death forces you to realise what is really important, and someone who is really turned against God can’t even repent in the face of death while someone who has always ‘secretly’ had some respect for God, can. And God is not boud by the sacraments, so if the man repents and dies before he has a chance to actually go to reconciliation, he can still recieve God’s grace and go to heaven. Point is that if he doesn’t even repent as he’s about to die then he really has no respect for God.

Same thing goes for all mortal sins not just missing mass. In order to commit one you have to have a change of heart, you pretty much have to hate God. It’s not a matter of timing because a faithful heart will likely never fall into mortal sin (it’s very possible to live your life without a single mortal sin) and a ‘borderline’ person might commit mortal sins but always repent. Only a really bad person or someone who becomes really bad can commit a mortal sin (remember, thats grave matter, full knowledge that its grave matter, and full consent) and never repent. Hence, as I say, if you end up in hell, you deserved it. If you’re a generally good bloke who occasionally does some bad stuff (most likely venial sins) then you will probably have to go to purgatory when you die but you’ll end up in heaven in the long run. Keep your faith (-:

 

[IanS]

Can you be saved if you accept Jesus on your death bed? When the “good thief” asked for forgiveness while he was on the cross, Jesus gave it to him. God’s mercy is infinite and only He knows the state of a person’s soul, and He can forgive whomever He wills. God also never gives up on us, not even to the last moments of out life. However, the whole concept of Sola Fide goes against Sacred Scripture.

When someone asks me if I’ve been “saved”, I just tell them, “I don’t know, I would never do so foolish as to make that assumption, but I’m sure working on it”.

Philippians, chapter 2:12:
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;

James 2:14-24, 26
What good is it, my brothers and sisters,
if someone says he has faith but does not have works?
Can that faith save him?
If a brother or sister has nothing to wear
and has no food for the day,
and one of you says to them,
“Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,”
but you do not give them the necessities of the body,
what good is it?
So also faith of itself,
if it does not have works, is dead.

Indeed someone might say,
“You have faith and I have works.”
Demonstrate your faith to me without works,
and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
You believe that God is one.
You do well.
Even the demons believe that and tremble.
Do you want proof, you ignoramus,
that faith without works is useless?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works
when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
You see that faith was active along with his works,
and faith was completed by the works.
Thus the Scripture was fulfilled that says,
Abraham believed God,
and it was credited to him as righteousness,
and he was called the friend of God.
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
For just as a body without a spirit is dead,
so also faith without works is dead.

Matthew 7:21:
Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord” shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but only those who do the will of my Father who is in heaven.

 

[Flopfoot]

Just re-reading, I noticed that 1) I didn’t really answer your question and such and 2) You don’t seem to be Catholic if I now understand what you’ve written correctly. Okay, so I’ll go into more detail rather than just ‘if you’re generally a good bloke…’ to answer Catholic view on assurance of salvation (although I am no expert).

Okay, straightforward path to heaven - Get a valid Catholic baptism, live life as a good Catholic, not committing mortal sins, you will go to heaven. If you commit a mortal sin and later repent it and you have a valid confession then it will be forgiven. If you have no unrepented mortal sins when you die you will go to heaven. 100% guarantee on this one. Eg, I’m pretty sure I haven’t committed any mortal sins since my last confession (it’s pretty hard to commit a mortal sin without knowing it, although it’s possible I may have blocked it out of my mind or something. But if I go to reconciliation and don’t remember or know of any mortal sins then I can still have a valid confession and those sins I don’t remember will be forgiven). If it is in fact the case that I haven’t committed mortal sin since my last confession then if I get hit by lightning now and die then I will go to heaven (probably via purgatory, but I’ll still end up in heaven).

But it’s not only Catholics who can go to heaven. There are other paths. For the non-Christian who is completely ignorant of God through no fault of his own, he has invincible ignorance which means he won’t be condemned for not believing. If he lives his life by what he feels to be right (following his conscience, not treating others badly, etc) then he can be saved - God is not bound by the sacraments and can impart grace to him anyway. No guarantees, but after all God is rich in mercy and slow to anger.

How about non-Catholic Christians, and also perhaps Jews and Muslims? They are generally pretty similar to Catholics and while not having the fullness of truth, have got lots of stuff right. They are, then, to some extent supposed to know right from wrong and should believe in God and live by His teachings. Some baptisms in non-Catholic Christian churches are valid by the way and so I think they can actually impart sanctifying grace. People can’t be saved through any church except the Catholic church but since the other churches are similar to the Catholic church, it’s as if they have a bit of ‘Catholic’ in them and so depending on the degree of similarity, thats like the degree that that church can be good for salvation. So, I know this isn’t a great answer, but for other Christians (plus Jews and Muslims) it’s like a mixture of the Catholic way (knowing God and knowing whats right and doing that) and the invincible ignorance way (it’s not really youre fault you dont have the fullness of truth since it was just the way you were brought up, so just try to live the best you can and seek God).

 

[JoeyWarren]

fabsooi:

I was having a conversation with a Protestant friend. If a person who leads a sinful life but before his death, repents and accepts Christ, does he receive salvation? If this is the case, how does this coincide with the Catholic view of salvation where faith and works is required.

Works is a result of your faith. As James said “Faith without works is dead”. As for the man that repents and confesses his sins prior to death, that is not a problem. He will go to heaven in due based on his acceptance of Jesus as Lord. But, his Foundation of Life is built a mile high with wood, hay, stubble which must be burneth away…and we all know what that means.

 

[mozart-250]

Yeah you’re right, I’m not Catholic…but not hostile towards it either. Although I do no have enough reason to leave where I am at and convert, neither have I eliminated the possibility … particularly should I move (which is my inclination for now). But back to salvation issues…

First: aren’t there good news scriptures on salvation also:

Say Romans 10:9: If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.

This seems straightforward enough that even a simpleton like me understands this: If A is your present state, then B will be the future results. .

BTW I would advise Catholic Christians to use this Scripture when confronted by someone who assumes you are not Christian because you are Catholic (just my unsolicited advice you know).

Anyway, the Catholic definition of mortal sin is interesting. I might make the case that under the Catholic definition of mortal sin, that it is probably very rare by itself.

I suppose if you sin and at the same time consciously renounce
Christ that would be mortal. But that is not the way sin works in my life. There seems to be some level of self-deception involved, and of course after the fact some guilt and a desire to seek God’s forgiveness. Under this scenario, is it really “full knowledge” and “full consent”. I mean “full” is a “big word” (sort of like alone), do we normally sin under 100% knowledge and 100% consent when there is self-deception involved.

And wouldn’t just the fact that a believer has the desire for repentance be indicative that it is not mortal (yet). Doesn’t it say somewhere that the grace of God leads you to repentance. And if I still have the grace of God after the fact operating in my life, am I going to hell.

So in the hypothetical case of that guy who misses Mass, could I assume normally that the grace of God would not have left him, and that the normal result had not his life been interrupted would be that at some point he seeks forgiveness from the Lord?

However, there is a flip side to all this, that being that sin leads to death (much like a terminal disease) even in the believer. The passage in the Bible I would point to in this is James 1:12-15. We see a progression in this passage…lust leading to sin …leading to death. The disease analogy being that left untreated, the disease of sin will eventually and certainly kill. So maybe in this sense all sin eventually becomes mortal. The good news being that there is a time dimension to this process, and the treatment for this disease is readily available.

 

[mozart-250]

One more questions:

I have never really heard the term “Sola Fide”, but from my Latin I understand this to be “faith alone”.

Now I believe in “faith alone”…with my understanding of the term being that when one is initially converted, this is through faith. No works involved.

Now, I am not calvinistic at all (more the traditional Wesleyan I guess). Much of the Catholic/Protestant “faith alone” debate really sounds like the Calvinistic/not Calvinistic argument that I am quite familiar with. So I am really wondering for a person like me whether this issue is a tempest in a teapot.

(BTW the same goes for “Sola Scriptura” where from my tradition it is probably more “Prima Scriptura”).

 

[JoeyWarren]

Romans 10:9: If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.

Only if were that easy…it sounds to good to be true to me. Gee I just once confess Jesus is Lord and I believe that God raised his Son from the dead! That’s all I have to do? Then, I can then do as I please for the next 50 years? Yeah, it really sounds to good to be true.

 

[mozart-250]

JoeyWarren:

Only if were that easy…it sounds to good to be true to me. Gee I just once confess Jesus is Lord and I believe that God raised his Son from the dead! That’s all I have to do? Then, I can then do as I please for the next 50 years? Yeah, it really sounds to good to be true.

May I enter this statement of exhibit A of Catholics misrepresenting a non-Catholic statement.

If you had read all of what I had said, you would have known that is not what I am saying. I am not even a Calvinist. Sheesh.

And even the text of the scripture does not warrant that misreading. I mean the text does not say:

Romans 10:9: If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved no matter what you do for the next 50 years.

…does it.

But whatever. All non-Catholics believe you can be converted and then do whatever you want with no consequences. Whatever.