Another Question on Sola Fide

[JoeyWarren]

mozart-250:

May I enter this statement of exhibit A of Catholics misrepresenting a non-Catholic statement.

If you had read all of what I had said, you would have known that is not what I am saying. I am not even a Calvinist. Sheesh.

And even the text of the scripture does not warrant that misreading. I mean the text does not say:

Romans 10:9: If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved no matter what you do for the next 50 years.

…does it.

But whatever. All non-Catholics believe you can be converted and then do whatever you want with no consequences. Whatever.

Relaxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. A lot of non-catholics believe the OSAS theory. They actually don’t read the whole chapter to see what Paul is talking about. But at the same time, they don’t care what the context is. They take the one verse as proof…I came from that type of belief…not all believe that…true…but the number that do is overwhelming.

 

[mozart-250]

JoeyWarren:

Relaxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. A lot of non-catholics believe the OSAS theory. They actually don’t read the whole chapter to see what Paul is talking about. But at the same time, they don’t care what the context is. They take the one verse as proof…I came from that type of belief…not all believe that…true…but the number that do is overwhelming.

OK. I am back to my original questions:

I was initially responding to this statement:

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When someone asks me if I’ve been “saved”, I just tell them, “I don’t know, I would never do so foolish as to make that assumption, but I’m sure working on it”.​

That seems really odd to be a practicing Christian and to be unsure of your eternal destination in “present tense” (as opposed to nothing I can ever do in the future will put it at risk). It would drive me nuts to be constantly wondering whether my good works are enough to get me to heaven as a Christian; because to be honest they probably are not. I would find that very depressing.

I hope I am misunderstanding something here.

I have some larger questions as to why the Catholic finds “sola fide” so objectionable. When I was initially converted to Christ, I brought no good works to the table; in fact at that point in time my good works would have been as filthy rags. Isn’t that “sola fide”.

 

[Philthy]

fabsooi:

I was having a conversation with a Protestant friend. If a person who leads a sinful life but before his death, repents and accepts Christ, does he receive salvation? If this is the case, how does this coincide with the Catholic view of salvation where faith and works is required.

It is not required by Catholic theology - you and your friend are mistaken regarding Catholic theology. This is a desperate attempt at justifying sola fide…

 

[JoeyWarren]

When someone asks me if I’ve been “saved”, I just tell them, “I don’t know, I would never do so foolish as to make that assumption, but I’m sure working on it”.

Yes, that is a question that I answer in like manner also. They cite scripture and I just reply. I would not presume to know whose names are written in the “lambs book of life”, not even my own. I am a humble seeker of eternal life in heaven, there are no guaratees that I could take to the bank, then I give this from Catholic Answers in my email signature

I’m already saved (Rom 8:24, Eph 2:5-8), but I am also being saved **(1 Cor 1:8, 2 Cor 2:15, Phi 2:12), **] and I have the hope that I’ll will be saved

**(Rom 5:9-10, 1 Cor 3:12-15). **
Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling **(Phi 2:12), ** with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ **(Rom 5:2, 2 Tim 2:11-13).**I actually have business cards made up with this on the back…I get some interesting emails as a result.

 

[Flopfoot]

I think it may be a misunderstanding on the word saved. Catholics should know that in the present tense they can generally tell you to a high degree of certainty whether they are going to heaven or hell (“If I was to die in the state I’m in right now then I am going to…”) because like I said, if someone has committed a mortal sin since their last confession then they would generally know about it.

However, the idea of ‘saved’, it’s a past tense word. So if taken under the Catholic idea of sanctifying grace, it’s like asking “have you ever been in a state of sanctifying grace before”. Of course then the answer is yes, because we are all in a state of grace immediately after being baptised. Of course no one would bother to ask that question, so when a Catholic hears the question “are you saved”, the way he might interpret it is not as “have you been in a state of grace in the past” but “did some event happen in the past that puts you in a state of grace forever”. The answer has to then be ‘no’ because while I’m alive it is always possible for me to go from a state of grace to a state of sin by mortal sin. Not until I die and find myself in either heaven or purgatory can I know that I am in a state of grace forever more.

Summary -
Past Tense - Have I (any catholic) ever been saved (ie, been in a state of grace) in the past - yes for every Catholic, we have all been in a state of grace at one time.

Present Tense - Am I in a state of grace now? Either yes or no, I can know which it is to a high degree of certainty. If I go to reconciliation and confess all mortal sins I can remember since my last confession, then I can say yes for sure, immediately after confession.

Future Tense - Will I be in a state of grace at time x? I hope so, and I can work towards it by avoiding mortal sin from now till then. But I can’t say for sure since I can’t predict the future.

Timeless present - Will I be in a state of grace now and forever? While I’m alive, no, I can’t say this for sure.

By the way, about full knowledge and consent -
You mention self-deception. That’s basically the same as making excuses, it’s like trying to fool yourself into thinking it’s not really wrong. That can’t change the fact that you really do know. In fact there are some things that all people know innately - like that murder is wrong, even atheists know that, because it is a part of natural moral law, buried inside us, in our conscience. Self decption and making excuses is no excuse. If you know it’s wrong, you know it’s wrong.

However, in cases of insane people, for eg, they are generally not consenting to anything they do. If your decision making facilities are not at their best due to illness, effects of substances, addiction, etc., then there can be mitigating circumstancews (some blame is removed) which can sometimes mean that the sin is venial rather than mortal.

Ah, you talk about the grace of God. The grace of God (sanctifying grace at least) leaves you when you commit mortal sin. God still calls you to repentance though.

You make it sound as if committing mortal sin and not repenting is almost impossible (because deep down we still love God and of course that’s going to bring us to repentance or else prevent us from really sinning - grave matters - with full consent in the first place). The thing is though that there are things that sometimes stop people from loving God, and all of a sudden mortal sin becomes easy to commit. Like some people become angry at God after someone they love dies. In this angry time they might well do something to offend God and not care. Only if they turn back to God later will they try to make repentance.

Or things other than anger can have effect as well. Eg, many speculate that Judas never repented, and the reason for this was his despair. They speculate that he gave up hope of ever being forgiven, hence didnt seek forgiveness and hung himself instead.

Despair, fear, anger, etc., many things can keep us from God.

 

[mozart-250]

It sounds like we are not miles apart in how we perceive this.

Yet it also sounds like your perception is more “light-bulbish” than I am really comfortable with (as also I am not comfortable with eternal security which implies there is no relationship between sin and death in the believer). I am not saying you are wrong; I am saying I am not comfortable with it…not there yet.
(at some point I am going to study the early church and I am sure I might change my opinions on some things after that study. If I can see any doctrine or practice prevalent in the time period 100-200AD; I would say there is a high degree of probability such doctrines/practices are apostolic and therefore correct.)

On the relationship between “sin and death” I am most comfortable with James 1:12-16 where it reads to me as a process.

I therefore would be inclined to see mortal and venial not as two black/white states where all sins are either one or another. I see them more as two ends of a continuum. If I were Catholic I would be inclined to confess all sins I am aware of and not worry about the mortal/venial distinction.

I wonder if there are Catholics who have the same perception as I do, or who at least who would not say I am wrong.

 

[Flopfoot]

Hmm well 1 thing that is worth noting, and slightly related to the passage from James you put up, is that while the Church teaches that venial sin can’t directly affect your salvation (or lack thereof), it also teaches that the more we commit venial sins and give into those little temptations, the more inclined / less resistance we will have to committing mortal sin.

The Church actually does ecnourage Catholics to confess venial sins at confession even though they have no obligation to do so, I guess one reason is so that it will help them to fight these smaller temptations to avoid falling into bigger ones.

Sort of like ‘gateway drugs’, you know, a few people go tobacco to marijuana to heroin, people can also go from venial sins getting progressively more serious, to eventually falling into mortal sin - so that I suppose would be a fairly “non-lightbulb” way of a person falling from a state of grace.

 

[magdelaine]

mozart-250:

Now I believe in “faith alone”…with my understanding of the term being that when one is initially converted, this is through faith. No works involved.

It is common to think of “faith alone” as you just described it. However, we are saved by grace alone, and the natural result of that grace in a Christian is faith and works. As it is natural, denying God the works or faith that result from grace is a positive action; i.e., something you do that cuts off that flow of grace from God. Sin is never something you just fall into, although it may feel that way. It is a decision to be less than fully human; to be less than the example of humanity that Jesus is for us.

mozart-250:

I therefore would be inclined to see mortal and venial not as two black/white states where all sins are either one or another. I see them more as two ends of a continuum. If I were Catholic I would be inclined to confess all sins I am aware of and not worry about the mortal/venial distinction.

This is what I do. I just don’t find the distinctions helpful and I find thinking about them too closely leads to scrupulosity. But then, I wasn’t raised in the Church.

 

[magdelaine]

magdelaine:

the natural result of that grace in a Christian is faith and works.

I should add that this is a result of grace in all humans, regardless of religion, because I believe, as the Church teaches, that this grace is available at all times to all people regardless of individual belief.

 

[mozart-250]

magdelaine:

It is common to think of “faith alone” as you just described it. However, we are saved by grace alone, and the natural result of that grace in a Christian is faith and works.

But how is one converted? I used the word converted because I sense Catholics and non-Catholics use the verb “saved” and the noun “salvation” differently. And to be honest in Scripture the words do seem to have different meanings dependent upon the passage selected.

I was converted in a college dorm room. I did not go to Church. I did not say the “sinners prayer”. I did not go down front in any “alter call”. I did not perform any other ritual that any particular church may or may not practice. The person I was with was only a Christian a couple of weeks and had no idea what to do with someone like me who wanted to convert. In fact my memory escapes me 30 years later concerning all the details of just what did happen that night. But I do know that I did not perform any great work to make it happen…indeed at that point works would have been as filthy rags.

All that I know is that my Christianity has a starting point and that night in 1973 was it. I might use the words saved or born-again to title that night while you might use something else (actually I like the word converted) but whatever words we might use to title the process does not change what happened.

 

[magdelaine]

mozart-250:

But how is one converted? I used the word converted because I sense Catholics and non-Catholics use the verb “saved” and the noun “salvation” differently.

Yes, I think that the difference in meaning of those words for Protestants and Catholics is the root of much misunderstanding on these forums and elsewhere.

I don’t know if conversion is a good stand-in word for salvation, but to talk about how it happens and what it is, and its relationship to grace; if the conversion experience is a lightbulb in your heart, then grace is the electricity that makes it glow. There are many channels for this grace; it may be intellectual or it may be emotional, it may be like your Aha! moment or it may come slowly with time. Once it turns on, though, it is up to the convert to keep the Greatest Commandment: to love God with all your soul, all your strength, and all your mind (faith), and to love your neighbor as yourself (works). It is the daily decisions we make after this experience that will enhance or diminish the flow of grace in our lives.

Looking at this experience to say whether one is “saved” or not is like a couple thinking the wedding day is the whole marriage. It’s not. After the party is over, the real, good, hard, challenging, life-fulfilling work starts, ya know?

You are on the right path. Keep asking the questions and you will get the answers you need (not to say that I’m the one that will give them to you, LOL).

God bless!