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TexanKnight
Guest
He has to.
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TexanKnight
Guest
Sometimes, to understand a person, you must understand where they came from.
Tom is LDS. To be LDs, one must believe in a god who was once a man. Furhter, he must beleive in a Christ who was a liar, cruel and weak. This then allows one to accept a prophet who was a convicted con man, dishonest, who had a huge ego, stole wives and tried to wife swap with William Law.
When one has a god who was once human and a weak Christ, your prophet can be js.
Tom is LDS. To be LDs, one must believe in a god who was once a man. Furhter, he must beleive in a Christ who was a liar, cruel and weak. This then allows one to accept a prophet who was a convicted con man, dishonest, who had a huge ego, stole wives and tried to wife swap with William Law.
When one has a god who was once human and a weak Christ, your prophet can be js.
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Porknpie
Guest
Kathleen,
My friend. The consistency comment is a reasonable challenge in a very positive way.
For instance, no matter where geographically the early Church communities were established, whether in Jerusalem, Turkey, Syria, North Africa, Spain or India etc., they all believed in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.
To hold & believe otherwise means that either:
- The apostles all misunderstood Christ
- Christ taught in error
PnP
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zaffiroborant
Guest
I just a matter of no one meeting the criteria laid out in Acts any longer.
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LivingWaters7
Guest
We need to be specific about what you mean by “supernatural public revelation”, and if we are speaking of the same thing that ended. As well, we must understand why Catholics believe that ended, while at the same time maintaining that God still speaks, the Heavens are open, the Church is guided by the Spirit, Papal Infallibility and Councils are Spirit-guided efforts, visions and Heavenly visitations occur, and there are still prophets and prophetesses down through Catholic history.
What Catholics mean when we say that “public revelation” is complete is that all that is necessary for salvation has been revealed, ultimately being revealed in the Divine Person Jesus Christ. Biblical history and Sacred Tradition include the Truth of God’s slowly unfolding revelation to man on eternal life, culminating in the self-revelation of God to His people in Jesus Christ. Therefore, nothing necessary for salvation will ever be revealed, since all that is necessary has already been revealed, again personified in Jesus Christ.
This is also why Catholics don’t view the LDS restoration as true, because it introduces necessary ordinances and rites that simply weren’t had anciently, nor do we see any Biblical evidence for them as requirements for eternal life in the New Testament Church. These include:
-priesthood ordination for men
-eternal marriage/sealing
-temple washing and anointing and Endowment
Catholics do not believe that the requirements for eternal life change after Jesus Christ established the Kingdom of God anciently. This is why Catholics believe that public revelation is complete. Now, Catholics also believe that we come to fuller understanding of that public revelation as the ages pass, through the Spirit. God guides us in that understanding, and guides His Church into all Truth. None of this adds to what has already been revealed, but grows our understanding of the fulness of Truth revealed by Jesus Christ and to His Apostles. Further, Catholic history contains many examples of messages from Heaven given to Catholic prophets and prophetesses.
Lastly, Catholics see no need to add to the Bible since the documents from Church Councils, as well as Papal Encyclicals, are viewed quite similarly to scripture, and hold the same authority (i.e. the magisterium). Catholics not only read the Biblical books, but also Lumen Fidei, or Evangelii Gaudium. We have the inspired teachings of those with apostolic authority in this day, and therefore, again, no need for a “restoration” of something that was never lost.
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LivingWaters7
Guest
As others have already mentioned, this simply is not true. The Catholic view of the sacraments (contrary to LDS apologetics, which I assume you are referring to such thing as The Decline of Covenant in Early Christian Thought) not only includes the belief in a conferral of grace to the recipient, but also a covenantal relationship between the recipient and God. This is evident in all of the sacraments, and is exactly the same as how early Christianity viewed the sacraments. Covenant was never lost, and this is yet another LDS misrepresentation.
For more on covenant and how Catholics view the sacraments, in direct contradiction to your claim (as well as the specific importance of covenant in how Catholics view the Church and the impossibility of a total apostasy of Christ’s Kingdom), see:
Swear to God: The Promise and Power of the Sacraments, by Scott Hahn
A Father Who Keeps His Promises: God’s Covenant Love in Scripture by Scott Hahn
Covenant and Communion: The Biblical Theology of Pope Benedict XVI by Scott Hahn
Kinship by Covenant: A Canonical Approach to the Fulfillment of God’s Saving Promises by Scott Hahn
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LivingWaters7
Guest
Perhaps you would be interested in reading the following article, which directly refutes Father Sullivan’s claim:
The Bishops of History and the Catholic Faith: A Reply To Brandon Addison
And yes, I own and have read Sullivan’s and Nibley’s books.
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LivingWaters7
Guest
Again, you completely misunderstand how Catholics view the matter of public revelation endign. As has been stated multiple times, Catholicism is replete with visions, visitations, etc from Heaven (including to leaders). Catholicism teaches that the Pope, as well as the Bishops in Council, can be guided by the Spirit in formally defining Truth, in our unfolding understanding of the Deposit of Faith. Therefore, we readily accept Heavenly guidance in any issues that may come up, as has been the case throughout Catholic history, including in explicitly defining the Truth in the face of heresy.
So again, your argument is based on a false premise, and not something that Catholics would agree with.
As well, it seems as if the days of the LDS church claiming revelations and visions to solve issues are long gone. We don’t even have the actual text of the purported revelation received in 1978 to end the priesthood/temple ban of blacks, just a declaration that a revelation was received (the same goes for plural marriage). Very odd, at least compared to the rest of the D&C. Will there ever be a day when the LDS church canonizes a revelation in the same way the rest of the D&C is? I doubt it.
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KathleenGee
Guest
Great responses, Living Waters!
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TexanKnight
Guest
I doubt it, too. The written ones have come back to haunt them and forces their apologists to do too many handstands and pretzel moves. Better not to have any “revelations” can be found to be as bogus as the past ones.
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Telstar
Guest
Catholics would only agree that new public revelation can never be found anywhere on earth; either in the Catholic Church, or in the CoJCoLDS. There will never be any more revealed than what has already been revealed by Jesus, Himself. All of which, was already given to us by His eyewitnesses; the Apostles that He chose when He walked this earth. There aren’t any more eyewitnesses that can reveal anything new. That’s why Jesus said, “It is finished.”.
"The Christian revelation
It remains here to distinguish the Christian Revelation or “deposit of faith” from what are termed private revelations. This distinction is of importance: for while the Church recognizes that God has spoken to His servants in every age, and still continues thus to favour chosen souls, she is careful to distinguish these revelations from the Revelation which has been committed to her charge, and which she proposes to all her members for their acceptance. That Revelation was given in its entirety to Our Lord and His Apostles. After the death of the last of the twelve it could receive no increment. It was, as the Church calls it, a deposit — “the faith once delivered to the saints” (Jude, 2) — for which the Church was to “contend” but to which she could add nothing. Thus, whenever there has been question of defining a doctrine, whether at Nicæa, at Trent, or at the Vatican, the sole point of debate has been as to whether the doctrine is found in Scripture or in Apostolic tradition. The gift of Divine assistance (see I), sometimes confounded with Revelation by the less instructed of anti-Catholic writers, merely preserves the supreme pontiff from error in defining the faith; it does not enable him to add jot or tittle to it. All subsequent revelations conferred by God are known as private revelations, for the reason that they are not directed to the whole Church but are for the good of individual members alone, They may indeed be a legitimate object for our faith; but that will depend on the evidence in each particular case. The Church does not propose them to us as part of her message. It is true that in certain cases she has given her approbation to certain private revelations. This, however, only signifies:
- that there is nothing in them contrary to the Catholic Faith or to the moral law, and,
- that there are sufficient indications of their truth to justify the faithful in attaching credence to them without being guilty of superstition or of imprudence."
You have no idea what Catholic Sacraments really are, or what they do, if you can promote that blatant untruth.
If you continue to look at the facts through the greasy lens of anti-Catholic sources and beliefs, you will never be able to see the truth.
The Apostles were the first Bishops of the Church, who received their Priesthood authority from Jesus. They were the first to lead the faithful, through preaching the Gospel and performing Baptisms. All Bishops appointed from that point on, are Priests first. As the Church grew, more Bishops were chosen from the Priests that the Apostles ordained through the ‘laying on of hands’, that is still found today in the Sacrament of Holy Orders. Again, your greasy lens is flawed, and keeps you from seeing the truth.
We can only become more Christlike by receiving the True Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ into us. And, that is only available in the Catholic Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist. There is no other source that you can ever find, where that truly occurs. Pray on that.
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PaulDupre1
Guest
If the LDS would bother to check their bibles, they would see this spelled out clearly in Acts chapter 1 which takes place after the death of Judas:
Verse 20 shows that, as an apostle, Judas was a bishop in the Church.
Verses 21-22 show why there can be no more apostles after the deaths of all the eye witnesses to Jesus’ entire ministry. No man today could possibly satisfy these conditions, and therefore no man today can be an apostle.
Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)
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Telstar
Guest
Amen! That’s what is so frustrating when trying to convince non-Catholics (and especially anti-Catholics) that the Church has never lost it’s authority, and the Priesthood of the Apostles is where that authority originated. It’s obvious to me that there must also be a continuation of a leader to stand in for Jesus at the head of the Church that He founded. The only logical choice is seen in what Jesus said in Matthew 16, from verse 16 to 20, about Peter. But, logic doesn’t seem to matter to some people, especially when it’s clearly called for to prove a truth that they don’t want to see.
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zaffiroborant
Guest
I’ve posted those verses at least 3 times and referred to them just as often. LDS simply ignore them.
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PaulDupre1
Guest
Me too. I keep posting them for those lurkers who may be, right now, being deceived by the Mormons.
Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)
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zaffiroborant
Guest
Like you I will keep on keeping on
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KathleenGee
Guest
I read a book by Fr Thomas DuBay years ago, ‘The Fire Within’, I believe was the book that had this insight.
All down through the ages in the lives of the saints, we see those special people come forth who gave us a new insight and a new charism that brought us deeper into the fullness of faith in Christ as Church.
All these saints of the past 2000 years came from different cultures, languages, and their histories in the times they were living in.
But the common denominator of all the saints is that they consistently brought us to the same knowledge and presence of Jesus Christ and Who He is. This would not have been possible either without the Church discerning their charisms, character, and works to verify that these holy people were living heroic and authentic lives that bore witness to the One True Lord.
All down through the ages in the lives of the saints, we see those special people come forth who gave us a new insight and a new charism that brought us deeper into the fullness of faith in Christ as Church.
All these saints of the past 2000 years came from different cultures, languages, and their histories in the times they were living in.
But the common denominator of all the saints is that they consistently brought us to the same knowledge and presence of Jesus Christ and Who He is. This would not have been possible either without the Church discerning their charisms, character, and works to verify that these holy people were living heroic and authentic lives that bore witness to the One True Lord.
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Porknpie
Guest
Kathleen,
I just read the attached on life of St. Benedict. I encourage everyone to read of this man of faith and holiness. I could compare him to Joseph Smith and Brigham Young but the reading itself does so, so clearly.
PnP
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Marie5890
Guest
I think this is what LW means by “putting it on the mental self”
What Mormons cant respond to, is put on the “mental self”?
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