Another Quirinius Thread

  • Thread starter Thread starter Faith1960
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
PNEUMA said:
Acts 5:37 “After him Judas the Galilean arose in the days of the census and drew away some of the people after him; he also perished, and all who followed him were scattered.”

Judas the Galilean arose in 6 A.D. the same year Jesus was born, the same year Quirinius became governor of Syria, the same year the cencus/registration was taken in Judea (Bethlehem) !

Luke 2:1 “Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus, that a census be taken of all the inhabited earth. This was the first census taken while Quirinius was governor of Syria.”
Click to expand...
King Herod didn’t lived to 6AD. Luke differentiated the 1st registration from that of the second one in Acts. That is obvious wasn’t it?

WHY do you have to assume that there was only 1 registration and that it was in 6AD?
 
ericc said:
PNEUMA;13546986 said:
Acts 5:37
Click to expand...
“After him Judas the Galilean arose in the days of the census and drew away some of the people after him; he also perished, and all who followed him were scattered.”

Judas the Galilean arose in 6 A.D. the same year Jesus was born, the same year Quirinius became governor of Syria, the same year the cencus/registration was taken in Judea (Bethlehem) !

Luke 2:1 "Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus, that a census be taken of all the inhabited earth. This was the first census taken while Quirinius was governor of Syria."King Herod didn’t lived to 6AD. Luke differentiated the 1st registration from that of the second one in Acts. That is obvious wasn’t it?

WHY do you have to assume that there was only 1 registration and that it was in 6AD?
Click to expand...

6 A.D was also the last year of king Herod Archelaus regin.

I do not “assume that there was only 1 registration” in the Roman province Judea (6 A.D - 135 A.D)
 
ericc said:
Yes the audiences are different. But you are alluding that they lied and wrote untruth WITHOUT a shred of evidence. Just so to maintain your agenda? And now you are claiming that you understand and that I don’t? Perhaps coming down from your high horse is a good idea. Humility is difficult to learn and ego difficult to overcome.

But both Matthew and Luke agree on King Herod timings. Since we know Jesus and John the Baptist are within few months of each other, you have no logical conclusion to reach a 6AD date. You are standing on very weak arguments. You are prepared to sacrifice Matthew and Luke to errors and ridicule just to protect your pet theory? Now what exactly is your agenda?

Regardless of audiences, there is no reason for Matthew and Luke to fudge on the timing of King Herod. If Matthew can’t get it right, it would be better to omit Chapter 1 and 2 altogether. And since he wrote it down, he was prepared to defend his Gospel against all enemies of early Christianity. Similar for Luke. Anything that they wrote if remotely untrue would be seized by the Jews and Romans to discredit them and their cause. And yet their Gospels stand today. Your theory will just fade away if your foundation is not solid. And it is not. Accusing Gospel writers of error using irrational logic is just taking cheap shots at them. Stating audience is different and therefore Matthew/Luke lied is a terrible terrible way of accusing anyone of untruth. You wouldn’t want me to accuse you that your audience is different and therefore you lied as a good argument would it? You could use this tactic to discredit ALL of the biblical writers since you are at it. And throw in Josephus as well. ALL of them have their own audiences.

Now defend your accusations of error for Matthew and Luke. List them down and your rationale for concluding that they are in error.
Click to expand...
Yes both John and Jesus were born in 6 A.D. (six months apart) The beginning of John’s ministry was 28 A.D. (Luke 3:1-2) The beginning of Jesus’s ministry in 34 or 35 A.D at the age of 28 or 29. (Luke 3:23)

It’s a well known historical fact, that the Church after Jesus’ departure, split into the Church of the circumcised and the Church of the uncircumcised. That’s why Matthew wrote like he did and Luke wrote like he did. And that’s somthing the Bible-compilers wanted us to know and see for ourselves.

The problem is your misconceptions about the Bible, not what Matthew and Luke wrote.
 
PNEUMA said:
6 A.D was also the last year of king Herod Archelaus regin.
Click to expand...
Are you going to ignore Matthew Chapter 2? Especially Mat 2:19-22. You skipped over these completely. How do you account for this? Matthew know who is King Herod is and who is Archelaus. Unfortunately for you, Archelaus was never known as King but Ethnarch as decided by Rome. Are you also going to skip the Magis, the Killing of the Innocents and the flight to Egypt as well? Cherry picking does not help your cause…
I do not “assume that there was only 1 registration” in the Roman province Judea (6 A.D - 135 A.D)
Click to expand...
You did for Luke 2 and Acts with no basis.

Despite my repeated requests for the justifications of errors committed by Matthew/Luke as alleged by you, it seems none would be forthcoming. With nothing to support your views, unfortunately your mantra will be indeed hollow.

And since you already conceded that Luke got it right in #172, you must accept his Luke 1:5 and which will mean 6AD is out for Jesus/John births. Else you contradict yourself,
 
My Chronology of Jesus:
Construction of Temple 19 B.C.
September B.C. Registration under Quirinius. Jesus is born.
December 25, 2 B.C. Magi visit Jesus.
1 B.C. Herod dies
October 27-October 28 A.D. John the Baptist starts ministry.
January 6 28 A.D. Jesus baptized by John
Passover 28 A.D. Jesus cleanses temple 1st time
Passover 29 A.D. Jesus feeds 5000
Passover 30 A.D. Jesus dies and rises from death.
 
It is common for both Christian and pagan historical works to refer to imperial records which used to exist in their time, but no longer do. Josephus referred to genealogical records that no longer exist, too.

It was also common in non-official books for all sorts of people to be called kings by their people or the neighbors, but for them to have a different official Roman title. “Ethnarch” does not trip off the tongue like “basileos.”
 
PNEUMA said:
No, I don’t believe in astrology and astrologers.

Matthew and Luke had two very different viewpoint. Matthew thought that the gospel was only for the Jews, Luke thought it also was for the Gentiles. These two views, divide the first century church. The gospel of Luke and the gospel of Matthew, reflects this division.

Matthew 15:24 “He answered, ‘I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel”

Matthew 10:5 “These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: ‘Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans, but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel”
Click to expand...
Matthew 24: 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, as a testimony to all nations; and then the end will come.

Israel was the firstborn. The message was promised to them first. Furthermore, there’s reasons why Jesus preached first in Galilee before bringing most of his preaching to Judah. But the Gospel was promised to the whole world. Through Israel, and through Christ, the whole world will be saved. There’s no conflict between Matthew and Luke’s focus, which is what you propose, even if there were different target audiences.
 
JB_Brother_4446 said:
My Chronology of Jesus:
Construction of Temple 19 B.C.
September B.C. Registration under Quirinius. Jesus is born.
December 25, 2 B.C. Magi visit Jesus.
1 B.C. Herod dies
October 27-October 28 A.D. John the Baptist starts ministry.
January 6 28 A.D. Jesus baptized by John
Passover 28 A.D. Jesus cleanses temple 1st time
Passover 29 A.D. Jesus feeds 5000
Passover 30 A.D. Jesus dies and rises from death.
Click to expand...
So, any comments?
 
JB_Brother_4446 said:
So, any comments?
Click to expand...
Actually, yes. How did you narrow the date of Jesus’ baptism so precisely? There are a few others that I would ask about, as well.

The Jewish calendar had 13 months, with the first being Nisan – the month of the Passover. Did your transposition to our calendar consider those?
 
TMC said:
C’mon now, Faith, you are involved in at least a dozen threads on this topic. You know the breadth of opinion. The Church teaches the Bible can contain factual errors, but some Catholics maintain that it cannot. The usual suspects have gone round and round on this. Why do you keep asking the same question. I predict you will get the same answers.
Click to expand...
You’re Catholic, aren’t you?
 
TMC said:
Why do you ask me this four months after my post? I am Catholic, why do you ask?

Have you satisfied your questions about inerrancy of Scripture?
Click to expand...
I asked because that other poster brought this all up again and I reread your post and was curious.

And yes, I realize that Scripture can have a few factual errors.

A woman I grew up with said she was going to church, on Facebook, this past weekend. I asked her if she was still Catholic, as so many aren’t anymore. It sounded like I struck a nerve. No, she’s not Catholic and calls her motorcycle riding “going to church”. Apparently I’m offending everybody lately.
 
Peter_Plato said:
Actually, yes. How did you narrow the date of Jesus’ baptism so precisely? There are a few others that I would ask about, as well.

The Jewish calendar had 13 months, with the first being Nisan – the month of the Passover. Did your transposition to our calendar consider those?
Click to expand...
I used the theory that John’s ministry started from October 27 A.D. to October 28 A.D. amd how the East dates the Baptism of Jesus.
 
My Chronology of Jesus Revised:

Construction of Temple 19 B.C.
3 B.C. Registration under Quirinius. Jesus is born.
2 B.C. Magi visit Jesus.
1 B.C. Herod dies
October 27-October 28 A.D. John the Baptist starts ministry.
28 A.D. Jesus baptized by John
Passover 28 A.D. Jesus cleanses temple
Passover 29 A.D. Jesus feeds 5000
Passover 30 A.D. Jesus dies and rises from death.

So Peter Plato, you can correct me if I am wrong.
 
JB_Brother_4446 said:
My Chronology of Jesus Revised:

Construction of Temple 19 B.C.
3 B.C. Registration under Quirinius. Jesus is born.
2 B.C. Magi visit Jesus.
1 B.C. Herod dies
October 27-October 28 A.D. John the Baptist starts ministry.
28 A.D. Jesus baptized by John
Passover 28 A.D. Jesus cleanses temple
Passover 29 A.D. Jesus feeds 5000
Passover 30 A.D. Jesus dies and rises from death.

So Peter Plato, you can correct me if I am wrong.
Click to expand...
Anyone?
 
JB_Brother_4446 said:
My Chronology of Jesus Revised:

Construction of Temple 19 B.C.
3 B.C. Registration under Quirinius. Jesus is born.
2 B.C. Magi visit Jesus.
1 B.C. Herod dies
October 27-October 28 A.D. John the Baptist starts ministry.
28 A.D. Jesus baptized by John
Passover 28 A.D. Jesus cleanses temple
Passover 29 A.D. Jesus feeds 5000
Passover 30 A.D. Jesus dies and rises from death.

So Peter Plato, you can correct me if I am wrong.
Click to expand...
I am currently working on a chronological synthesis of the four Gospels so your dating is interesting.

One slight concern: Jesus’ ministry lasted three years (according to Luke, if I remember correctly.) If it started on or just before a Passover, three years would actually involve the periods inclusive of four Passover Feasts, not just three, since he would have died on the fourth. His three years of ministry would have been bookended by Passovers with two inside the time of his ministry, no?

Jesus feeding the five thousand was just prior the Passover time, according to John.
 
Peter_Plato said:
I am currently working on a chronological synthesis of the four Gospels so your dating is interesting.

One slight concern: Jesus’ ministry lasted three years (according to Luke, if I remember correctly.) If it started on or just before a Passover, three years would actually involve the periods inclusive of four Passover Feasts, not just three, since he would have died on the fourth. His three years of ministry would have been bookended by Passovers with two inside the time of his ministry, no?

Jesus feeding the five thousand was just prior the Passover time, according to John.
Click to expand...
Yeah, been flirting with the 3.5 year ministry theory.

The Jews counted inclusively not exclusively, that’s how although Jesus was actually in the tomb for Friday to Sunday for a duration of two days, it was still counted as three days. Similarily, although Jesus ministry according to me lasted 2 years and 2 months or 2.5 years if He was baptized in 27 A.D. it could still be counted as three years. Also the total amount of Passovers in John’s ministry is 3 passovers. According to Eusebius, Jesus died 40 years before the destruction of the temple, 30 A.D., amd started his minstry in the 15th year of Tiberius or late 27 A.D. to late 28 A.D.
 
JB_Brother_4446 said:
My Chronology of Jesus Revised:

Construction of Temple 19 B.C.
3 B.C. Registration under Quirinius. Jesus is born.
2 B.C. Magi visit Jesus.
1 B.C. Herod dies
October 27-October 28 A.D. John the Baptist starts ministry.
28 A.D. Jesus baptized by John
Passover 28 A.D. Jesus cleanses temple
Passover 29 A.D. Jesus feeds 5000
Passover 30 A.D. Jesus dies and rises from death.

So Peter Plato, you can correct me if I am wrong.
Click to expand...
I would question “Jesus cleanses the Temple” having occurred so early in his career.

My reasons are…
  1. Luke’s account is the intentionally “orderly” one, as opposed to Mark or Matthew which were less likely to have been ordered chronologically, but were organized thematically.
  2. Jesus “set his face to go to Jerusalem” because the “days drew near for him to be taken up.” (Luke 9:51) This seems to imply that events from here on to his Passion and death occurred in the six months or so prior to the month of Nisan when he was crucified. I would estimate July-August – the month of Av on the Jewish calendar.
  3. After heading out for Jerusalem, he sends out 70 disciples to proclaim the kingdom (Luke 10:1) and they return (Luke 10:17). This would imply a period of weeks or even months between the two events while Jesus was making his way to Jerusalem. (September or Tishri?)
  4. Jesus enters Jerusalem on a colt in Luke 19:37. This would have been a month or two before the Passover of his Passion and death. (See 8) below.) (February-March or Shevat?)
  5. Jesus drives the sellers out of the Temple in Luke 19:45, after he entered Jerusalem on the colt.
  6. His cleansing the Temple would have been the “last straw” as far as the Sanhedrin were concerned, since he definitively made himself out to have higher authority than the high priest and council regarding the comings and goings at the Temple. His claim to authority was again challenged by the chief priests in Luke 20:1-8. (March or Adar?)
  7. Shortly after the cleansing, the chief priests and teachers were trying to find a way to kill Jesus (Luke 19:47)
  8. Jesus was said to “regularly” teach in the Temple during the day and go to the Mount of Olives at night (Luke 21:37-8) This would seem to indicate a somewhat prolonged period of weeks or even months before the Passover of his death. (April or Nisan?)
Thoughts?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top