Another Round with the Baptist

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CEAbbott

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Hi there again folks,

Got another message from my FaceBook Baptist friend regarding the Catholic Church not being the Church Christ established. Before I post it here for your help, I want to thank each and every one of you who wrote to help me debate her accusations against the Church with Catholic apologetics.
Here is the new message she sent me this morning…:

**"The truth is that the Catholic church was started by emperor Constantine 4 century’s after the death and resurrection of Christ. I’d like to add that if you are familiar with the book of Revelation, 7 churches are discussed therein as being the “seat” of Christianity. NOWHERE is mentioned the "church of Rome **

I have been advised by a few people to block her from my FB page, but I don’t think that is the best way to handle this, as I think keeping open communications regarding our faith is the best way to share the faith. As with what happened with my own conversion to the Catholic Church 6 years ago, all it took was for some wonderful devout Catholic to show me the errors of my thinking and what I had been erroneously taught by protestant ministers, that brought me swiftly running to the Catholic Church. So for all its worth, I think I’ll put up with her accusations and questions for now and hopefully, with your help and alot of prayer, she’ll start to see the light. I would also like to add that many a good book has been advised that I should read (and I will read them) in order to know our faith more indepth, but I will learn much faster from you good people who have so much knowledge about the Church, and also, because I could not possibly write her with enough intelligence and/or wisdom to persuade her that her thoughts concerning the Catholic Church are completely incorrect.
 
CEAbbott said:
**"The truth is that the Catholic church was started by emperor Constantine 4 century’s after the death and resurrection of Christ. I’d like to add that if you are familiar with the book of Revelation, 7 churches are discussed therein as being the “seat” of Christianity. NOWHERE is mentioned the "church of Rome **
Click to expand...
The Seat of Christianity?!? Where is it called the Seat of Christianity. And for that matter, where is Jerusalem & Antioch, the true seats of Christianity? No, those Churches would have been familiar to St. John, who resided in Ephesus during most of his Christian life, which is why they were probably included, but I couldn’t call them “the seat of Christianity”.

Also, regarding the Constantine myth, if Constantine started the Catholic Church, then She would have been Arian in belief. This did not happen.

Ask your friend what makes him think that Constantine started the Church?
 
NotWorthy said:
The Seat of Christianity?!? Where is it called the Seat of Christianity. And for that matter, where is Jerusalem & Antioch, the true seats of Christianity? No, those Churches would have been familiar to St. John, who resided in Ephesus during most of his Christian life.

Also, regarding the Constantine myth, if Constantine started the Catholic Church, then She would have been Arian in belief. This did not happen.

Ask your friend what makes him think that Constantine started the Church?
Click to expand...
Hi “NotWorthy”
She actually sent me a YouTube Video of some black minister teaching some odd things where he mentions that the Catholic Church is trying to start a “New World Order” --and this minister happens to mention that Constantine started the Catholic Church in 400 AD. I can’t upload the video here and really don’t want to even if I could. It’s all hogwash. This is where she is getting alot of her “truth” about the Catholic Church – YouTube videos.
 
CEAbbott said:
Hi “NotWorthy”
She actually sent me a YouTube Video of some black minister teaching some odd things where he mentions that the Catholic Church is trying to start a “New World Order” --and this minister happens to mention that Constantine started the Catholic Church in 400 AD. I can’t upload the video here and really don’t want to even if I could. It’s all hogwash. This is where she is getting alot of her “truth” about the Catholic Church – YouTube videos.
Click to expand...
I agree, but you can’t use “a preacher on a you-tube” video for proof. Your friend has to tell you how Constantine started the Catholic Church. They will throw out some false statements like “Constantine wrote the ‘Edict of Milan’ which made Christianity the official religion of Rome” which is false. The Edict made it legal, but not exclusive. But this statement made by many “false historians” only prove that they are just cutting-and-pasting things written by Lorraine Boehtner instead of any real study.
 
Point out to her that youtube videos hardly constitute historical proof, and that you’d be happy to check out any actual documentation she might produce.
She won’t, of course, there isn’t any; but don’t let her get by with this youtube nonsense.
CEAbbott said:
Hi there again folks,

Got another message from my FaceBook Baptist friend regarding the Catholic Church not being the Church Christ established. Before I post it here for your help, I want to thank each and every one of you who wrote to help me debate her accusations against the Church with Catholic apologetics.
Here is the new message she sent me this morning…:

**"The truth is that the Catholic church was started by emperor Constantine 4 century’s after the death and resurrection of Christ. I’d like to add that if you are familiar with the book of Revelation, 7 churches are discussed therein as being the “seat” of Christianity. NOWHERE is mentioned the "church of Rome **

I have been advised by a few people to block her from my FB page, but I don’t think that is the best way to handle this, as I think keeping open communications regarding our faith is the best way to share the faith. As with what happened with my own conversion to the Catholic Church 6 years ago, all it took was for some wonderful devout Catholic to show me the errors of my thinking and what I had been erroneously taught by protestant ministers, that brought me swiftly running to the Catholic Church. So for all its worth, I think I’ll put up with her accusations and questions for now and hopefully, with your help and alot of prayer, she’ll start to see the light. I would also like to add that many a good book has been advised that I should read (and I will read them) in order to know our faith more indepth, but I will learn much faster from you good people who have so much knowledge about the Church, and also, because I could not possibly write her with enough intelligence and/or wisdom to persuade her that her thoughts concerning the Catholic Church are completely incorrect.
Click to expand...
 
CEAbbott said:
Actually, here is the YouTube video where she gets this nonsense about the Catholic Church and the “new world order” and that Constantine started the Catholic Church in 400AD.

youtube.com/watch?v=_CEiFIeADe8&feature=player_embedded
Click to expand...
Your friend is bending the truth to prove his fallacious point, just as he is doing this with Glen Beck and the Tea-partiers.

Constantine did try and exert control over the Church, this is true. Constantine succeeded in controlling the Church, this is False.

Let’s look at that one single point. The Church was being torn apart by the teachings of Arias. This was causing problems in the Roman Empire, of which Christians represented 10% of the population. So Constantine did indeed call the Nicene Council to settle the issue. Bear in mind, that Constantine leaned to Arianism, not orthodoxy. And he didn’t call them together with the express purpose of creating the Creed. The Church did that on her own.

As mentioned, Constantine, through the influence of Eusebius, was Arian in thinking. As a result, he tried to squelch those Champions of Orthodoxy, such as Bishop Athanasius, and have them replaced with Arian bishops. This ultimately failed, and the Council of Constantinople (or was it Chalcedon) ultimately put down Arianism “for good”. I highlight “for good”, for it will still raise its ugly head for the next 3-400 years among the German tribes.
 
CEAbbott,
I do a lot of this type of arguing with my in-laws. The preacher in the video is simply repeating hearsay that he learned from someone else, who learned it from someone else, who learned it from someone else, etc. all the way back to the Reformation. There is no physical evidence that this preacher shows in the video or that ANY preacher I have ever heard of can show. I have found several things in this apologetics forum and the Bible itself to assert my disbelief in sola scriptura and de-bunk some of the frankly outlandish accusations of world domination and such the Church is accused of. Some times it works, and some times it’s like talking to a brick wall. If she’s not willing to move on any position regardless of what evidence you show her, I would tell her that there’s no point in even having a discussion about it.
 
CEAbbott said:
Actually, here is the YouTube video where she gets this nonsense about the Catholic Church and the “new world order” and that Constantine started the Catholic Church in 400AD.

youtube.com/watch?v=_CEiFIeADe8&feature=player_embedded
Click to expand...
Just take the statement he made about McCain. Although there was some confusion in where he was born, all proof shows that he was born on a military base in the Panama Canal. But your preacher-friend still clings to the false accusation. He’s not looking for the truth, he’s simply wanting to you think he speaks the truth.
 
CEAbbott said:
Hi there again folks,

Got another message from my FaceBook Baptist friend regarding the Catholic Church not being the Church Christ established. Before I post it here for your help, I want to thank each and every one of you who wrote to help me debate her accusations against the Church with Catholic apologetics.
Here is the new message she sent me this morning…:

**"The truth is that the Catholic church was started by emperor Constantine 4 century’s after the death and resurrection of Christ. I’d like to add that if you are familiar with the book of Revelation, 7 churches are discussed therein as being the “seat” of Christianity. NOWHERE is mentioned the "church of Rome **
Click to expand...
Let’s see, the Book of Revelation lists: Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea. No Jerusalem, no Antioch, no Alexandria. Also, John picked the seven churches as examples of something, such as suffering persecution, having a false prophet or having a lukewarm faith. He has prove John said these were the “seats of Christianity” and why did he picked less than shining examples.

One thing I use to disprove the Constantine idea that I came across is the Assyrian Church of the East. It’s located in what was the Parthian and later Sassanid Empire, now present day Iran and Iraq. it was the main rival of the Roman and later Byzantine/Eastern Roman Empire. Near the end of its existence in the 7th century, it came close to conquering the Eastern Roman Empire by conquering Egypt and Syria and laying siege to Constantinople before being defeated. Yet, the Christians there, at the Council of Seleucia-Ctesiphon in 410, accept the canons and decrees of the first Council of Nicea. If there was anything herectical or unorthodox, they could have and would have rejected it. They were in a nation capable of providing “protection,” as proven when the Nestorians fled to the Persian Empire and flourished. What happened when they accepted Nicea? The Persians saw them as Roman spies and persecuted them. They could have declared the “Church of Rome” was heretical and saved themselves, but they didn’t.
 
CEAbbott said:
Hi there again folks,

Got another message from my FaceBook Baptist friend regarding the Catholic Church not being the Church Christ established. Before I post it here for your help, I want to thank each and every one of you who wrote to help me debate her accusations against the Church with Catholic apologetics.
Here is the new message she sent me this morning…:

**"The truth is that the Catholic church was started by emperor Constantine 4 century’s after the death and resurrection of Christ. I’d like to add that if you are familiar with the book of Revelation, 7 churches are discussed therein as being the “seat” of Christianity. NOWHERE is mentioned the "church of Rome **

I have been advised by a few people to block her from my FB page, but I don’t think that is the best way to handle this, as I think keeping open communications regarding our faith is the best way to share the faith. As with what happened with my own conversion to the Catholic Church 6 years ago, all it took was for some wonderful devout Catholic to show me the errors of my thinking and what I had been erroneously taught by protestant ministers, that brought me swiftly running to the Catholic Church. So for all its worth, I think I’ll put up with her accusations and questions for now and hopefully, with your help and alot of prayer, she’ll start to see the light. I would also like to add that many a good book has been advised that I should read (and I will read them) in order to know our faith more indepth, but I will learn much faster from you good people who have so much knowledge about the Church, and also, because I could not possibly write her with enough intelligence and/or wisdom to persuade her that her thoughts concerning the Catholic Church are completely incorrect.
Click to expand...
Since your friend is making the assertions, make her do the homework. Tell her that she has to prove that Constantine started the Catholic Church. Since it’s not true she won’t be able to prove it. Ask her who started her denomination.
 
Accusations like these are just so ridiculous… Tell this person to research the Fathers of the Church who predate constantine. This person will see the succession of Catholic bishops including the Bishop of Rome, and all of the other Catholic doctrines held by the early Church.
 
CEAbbott said:
Hi there again folks,

Got another message from my FaceBook Baptist friend regarding the Catholic Church not being the Church Christ established. Before I post it here for your help, I want to thank each and every one of you who wrote to help me debate her accusations against the Church with Catholic apologetics.
Here is the new message she sent me this morning…:

**"The truth is that the Catholic church was started by emperor Constantine 4 century’s after the death and resurrection of Christ. I’d like to add that if you are familiar with the book of Revelation, 7 churches are discussed therein as being the “seat” of Christianity. NOWHERE is mentioned the "church of Rome **

I have been advised by a few people to block her from my FB page, but I don’t think that is the best way to handle this, as I think keeping open communications regarding our faith is the best way to share the faith. As with what happened with my own conversion to the Catholic Church 6 years ago, all it took was for some wonderful devout Catholic to show me the errors of my thinking and what I had been erroneously taught by protestant ministers, that brought me swiftly running to the Catholic Church. So for all its worth, I think I’ll put up with her accusations and questions for now and hopefully, with your help and alot of prayer, she’ll start to see the light. I would also like to add that many a good book has been advised that I should read (and I will read them) in order to know our faith more indepth, but I will learn much faster from you good people who have so much knowledge about the Church, and also, because I could not possibly write her with enough intelligence and/or wisdom to persuade her that her thoughts concerning the Catholic Church are completely incorrect.
Click to expand...
My question is, Has she even attempted to understand your POV? Did you confront her about her Landmarkism, which the majority of baptist reject and was she even open to reading a refutation of landmarkism by a baptist?

If not, shake the dust from your feet and move on.

Now if you want to continue ask her to:
  1. Prove Constantine started the Catholic Church. Not just the word or works of some radical protestant teacher. The original document in which Constantine states he is starting the Catholic Church. The document appointing the bishops, organizing the Church, setting doctrine, setting the scriptures etc etc etc. Hint she can’t and won’t.
  2. Most protestant theologians and seminaries teach nothing of what she is saying about the Revelation of Jesus Christ, which we shorten to Revelations. Ask her to name prominent protestant theologians who support what she says about Revelations…guys like Sproul, Packer, Wright, Guthrie etc. Not fringe guys like Camping or White whom most protestants think are fringe and/or a joke…especially Camping. I was taught in protestant seminary that the churches named were those under the authority of St John the Apostle, whom I was taught wrote the Revelation. Also, the Revelation never named one of those churches as the seat of power, nor does it say Rome is not the seat of power. So she can not use sola scriptura to prove it as scripture is silent on it.
I have been gone due to work, so I have not read the other thread completely. I seriously doubt she addressed any of your points. I would be surprised if she did. So I will go and read it.

I applaude your desire, but am cynical to its fruit. I have dealt with such too many times as a protestant pastor, they only accuse and condemn and never reason from the scriptures as I use to say.

I will pray for your success and to be proven wrong.

blessings
Mark
 
From looking at what she is presenting as facts and as sources I don’t think this person is open at all to logical, historical, or scriptural debate. I see no point in continuing this conversation.
 
CEAbbott said:
**"The truth is that the Catholic church was started by emperor Constantine 4 century’s after the death and resurrection of Christ. I’d like to add that if you are familiar with the book of Revelation, 7 churches are discussed therein as being the “seat” of Christianity. NOWHERE is mentioned the "church of Rome **
Click to expand...
The Church was legalized by Constantine, not invented.

Before legalization, the Church was underground and therefor, not as visible as it became after legalization. Consider the fact that if you were caught with Christian documents you would likely be executed. The early Christians under persecution couldn’t just rent out office space and build Churches on the street corners but after Constantine legalized Christianity they did just that.

The fact that the Church began building a much more publically visible structure and hierarchy in the fourth century was not because it suddenly sprang into existence but because Christians were no longer under the threat of torture and death for doing so.

The good Baptist may need a reminder that the Book of Revelation was written by a Catholic Bishop in Asia minor, hence its preoccupation with the seven Churches in that particular part of the world.

-Tim-
 
A thought has come to my mind about one of my own rules for apologetics, specifically changing the subject when you are hit with obstinance and the standard Protestant arguments.

Change the subject to things you know well and address those. The idea is to show that there is at least one Catholic doctrine which is scriptural. The idea is to show the beauty and truth in at least one Catholic doctrine, preferably something which he had previously denied or never considered. The goal is simply to get him to say, “OK, I see your point” or “You know, I never really thought of it that way” and then move on letting God to the rest. The idea is to leave him thinking that those Catholics arn’t as crazy as he originally thought, at leas on one particular doctrine.

Personally, I’d change the subject and take this guy straight to Mary. I’d go straight to Our Lady, the Blessed Mother. Marian doctrine is something which Catholics have traditionally been cautious about discussing with Protestants but I’d go there. Doing so would hit the good Baptist with the doctrine that he probably believes Catholics are completely wrong about and something which he thinks he knows all about.

Since he knows so much about Revelation, I’d ask him if he keeps God’s commandments and bears witness to Jesus and then go straight to Revelation 12 and show him where those who do so are called Mary’s “Offspring”.

-Tim-
 
CEAbbott said:
Hi there again folks,

Got another message from my FaceBook Baptist friend regarding the Catholic Church not being the Church Christ established. Before I post it here for your help, I want to thank each and every one of you who wrote to help me debate her accusations against the Church with Catholic apologetics.
Here is the new message she sent me this morning…:

**"The truth is that the Catholic church was started by emperor Constantine 4 century’s after the death and resurrection of Christ. I’d like to add that if you are familiar with the book of Revelation, 7 churches are discussed therein as being the “seat” of Christianity. NOWHERE is mentioned the "church of Rome **

.
Click to expand...
Tell you baptist friend that listening to a youtube video is not proof, but historal documents are. The guy on youtube could be telling lies, and tell her she fell for it.

As possible proof, cite the list of popes from Peter to Benedict, which should be available on the vatican site.

This will show a line of popes and have her refute it or tell you where constantine fits in the list.
 
sanjuro893 said:
CEAbbott,
I do a lot of this type of arguing with my in-laws. The preacher in the video is simply repeating hearsay that he learned from someone else, who learned it from someone else, who learned it from someone else, etc. all the way back to the Reformation. There is no physical evidence that this preacher shows in the video or that ANY preacher I have ever heard of can show. I have found several things in this apologetics forum and the Bible itself to assert my disbelief in sola scriptura and de-bunk some of the frankly outlandish accusations of world domination and such the Church is accused of. Some times it works, and some times it’s like talking to a brick wall. If she’s not willing to move on any position regardless of what evidence you show her, I would tell her that there’s no point in even having a discussion about it.
Click to expand...
Hi Sanjuro,
I agree with you completely. I have a gut feeling it will be like talking to a wall and within not too long, I will be telling her just that – “there’s no point in even having discussions about it”…
But you guys are great and I’m sure when she reads your comments, will stump her for a time being, or at least, until she either finds new youtube videos or talks to her paster. I noticed that her pastor, or some pastor from somewhere “Likes” her comments which I can view from my FB page,as well as some of her church congregation, with whom I can view on my FB wall where she writes them saying “Amen Sister!” about this or that regarding the Catholic Church. So, she is also getting backup from this pastor,and her congregation friends. Wouldn’t that be wonderful if little by little they all start to see the light. I doubt it, but God works His hands in strange ways.
 
Methos said:
Let’s see, the Book of Revelation lists: Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea. No Jerusalem, no Antioch, no Alexandria. Also, John picked the seven churches as examples of something, such as suffering persecution, having a false prophet or having a lukewarm faith. He has prove John said these were the “seats of Christianity” and why did he picked less than shining examples.

One thing I use to disprove the Constantine idea that I came across is the Assyrian Church of the East. It’s located in what was the Parthian and later Sassanid Empire, now present day Iran and Iraq. it was the main rival of the Roman and later Byzantine/Eastern Roman Empire. Near the end of its existence in the 7th century, it came close to conquering the Eastern Roman Empire by conquering Egypt and Syria and laying siege to Constantinople before being defeated. Yet, the Christians there, at the Council of Seleucia-Ctesiphon in 410, accept the canons and decrees of the first Council of Nicea. If there was anything herectical or unorthodox, they could have and would have rejected it. They were in a nation capable of providing “protection,” as proven when the Nestorians fled to the Persian Empire and flourished. What happened when they accepted Nicea? The Persians saw them as Roman spies and persecuted them. They could have declared the “Church of Rome” was heretical and saved themselves, but they didn’t.
Click to expand...
**Wow! Thanks for that information Methos.

It’ll take me a while to think about how I’m going to word that to her though without sounding too confusing. But it’s really great info!**
 
garysibio said:
Since your friend is making the assertions, make her do the homework. Tell her that she has to prove that Constantine started the Catholic Church. Since it’s not true she won’t be able to prove it. Ask her who started her denomination.
Click to expand...
***Yes I have already done that! I told her to show the documentation that Constantine did this. She hasn’t responded yet. I did tell her that Constantine converted to the Catholic faith by means of his mother Helena, who was a devout Catholic, and that Constantine also legalized the Church so that the faithful could worship without fear of being persecuted and killed. I learned this much from watching EWTN ***
 
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