Another Significant Evangelical Comes Home

[ConfusedTim]

Joshua Betancourt is the co-author of a book entitled “Is Rome the True Church?” which tries to debunk the Catholic faith, This book only came out last year and now we hear that Joshua has converted to Catholicism.

Why is it that so many learned Christians come home and yet only poorly catechised Catholics head to protestantism.

 

[Geocacher]

Seems like there is an attraction to the faith, for those who learn too much, and those others, who are poorly catechised, become bored with the church. Human nature to see whats on the other side of the fence.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Joshua Betancourt is the co-author of a book entitled “Is Rome the True Church?” which tries to debunk the Catholic faith, This book only came out last year and now we hear that Joshua has converted to Catholicism.

Why is it that so many learned Christians come home and yet only poorly catechised Catholics head to protestantism.

Steve Ray answered this on his blog yesterday. You can find it using Google.

 

[surritter]

Why is it that so many learned Christians come home and yet only poorly catechised Catholics head to protestantism.

That’s an easy question – If I am learned in a topic, I will gravitate toward the truth of that subject matter. If I am poorly educated in that area, I’ll fall for anything.

Therefore, your question points to the answer that the Truth is found in Catholicism.

 

[Reuben_J]

Joshua Betancourt is the co-author of a book entitled “Is Rome the True Church?” which tries to debunk the Catholic faith, This book only came out last year and now we hear that Joshua has converted to Catholicism.

Why is it that so many learned Christians come home and yet only poorly catechised Catholics head to protestantism.

When one has learned how Christianity started, steeped in History and what it entails, and have sufficiently dealt with prejudice, the Catholic Church would seem to be the obvious conclusion to go home to.

 

[SunnaB16]

How many Catholics would head off for Protestantism if they truly believed in the Real Presence … and the Mass … ?

Abominable “catechesis”.
And lousy, empty sermons.
And the seductive 'Bible knowledge" of these other groups.

 

[Contarini]

Joshua Betancourt is the co-author of a book entitled “Is Rome the True Church?” which tries to debunk the Catholic faith, This book only came out last year and now we hear that Joshua has converted to Catholicism.

Why is it that so many learned Christians come home and yet only poorly catechised Catholics head to protestantism.

Because the Catholic Church is great in theory and more problematic in practice. This is a conclusion that I came to 15 years ago, comparing the great Catholic writers I knew with the negative accounts of Catholicism I had heard from ex-Catholics and from my family (who had never been Catholic but who had experience evangelizing nominal Catholics–people who clearly needed evangelizing and were not being effectively evangelized by the Catholic Church). Now, after pretty extensive personal experience with Catholicism (obviously short of actual conversion, though I was a candidate for a couple of months), I have to conclude that my youthful judgment was largely correct. Catholicism is a lot better in practice than I then thought. At worst, it is no worse than Protestantism. But there are good reasons why people head out the door, and they are reasons that clearly point to actual flaws in Catholicism. The other explanations are cop-outs on the part of Catholics.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

How many Catholics would head off for Protestantism if they truly believed in the Real Presence

And believed that it was not to be found in other Western churches. Many ex-Catholics become Episcopalians precisely because we claim to have and believe in the Real Presence.

But you’re right–many ex-Catholics don’t seem to care about the sacraments. What I think you are missing is that faith is not simply a set of propositions that can be proven logically. If people are not surrounded by experiences that bolster their faith, they will probably abandon it. You can rail against this reality all you like, but it remains reality.

Edwin

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

…If people are not surrounded by experiences that bolster their faith, they will probably abandon it. You can rail against this reality all you like, but it remains reality.

This is why I admire the saints that have the dark night of the soul. They remained faithful despite not having the experiences that bolster faith. Faith experiences are antedotal evidence in support of a faith system, but they aren’t the proof in and of itself. The proof is in the fruit the faith produces.

 

[ralphinal]

Because the Catholic Church is great in theory and more problematic in practice. This is a conclusion that I came to 15 years ago, comparing the great Catholic writers I knew with the negative accounts of Catholicism I had heard from ex-Catholics and from my family (who had never been Catholic but who had experience evangelizing nominal Catholics–people who clearly needed evangelizing and were not being effectively evangelized by the Catholic Church). Now, after pretty extensive personal experience with Catholicism (obviously short of actual conversion, though I was a candidate for a couple of months), I have to conclude that my youthful judgment was largely correct. Catholicism is a lot better in practice than I then thought. At worst, it is no worse than Protestantism. But there are good reasons why people head out the door, and they are reasons that clearly point to actual flaws in Catholicism. The other explanations are cop-outs on the part of Catholics.

Edwin

Interesting. What is the disconnect between practice and theory and how can it be fixed?

 

[Mark77]

Because the Catholic Church is great in theory and more problematic in practice. This is a conclusion that I came to 15 years ago, comparing the great Catholic writers I knew with the negative accounts of Catholicism I had heard from ex-Catholics and from my family (who had never been Catholic but who had experience evangelizing nominal Catholics–people who clearly needed evangelizing and were not being effectively evangelized by the Catholic Church). Now, after pretty extensive personal experience with Catholicism (obviously short of actual conversion, though I was a candidate for a couple of months), I have to conclude that my youthful judgment was largely correct. Catholicism is a lot better in practice than I then thought. At worst, it is no worse than Protestantism. But there are good reasons why people head out the door, and they are reasons that clearly point to actual flaws in Catholicism. The other explanations are cop-outs on the part of Catholics.

Edwin

Edwin,

i completely agree with you on the point that many Catholics are ignorant of the treasure they were given (i used to be one!), like the spoiled rich kid who is bored with all the privilege, money & toys they were given but never earned.

Where you go wrong is implying that the Catholic Church is " great in theory", it is not theoretical, but the Perfection of Truth that Jesus Christ established to guide us until His return.

Throwing out the Fullness of Truth that can only be found in the Catholic Church is like rejecting Jesus because His Apostles betrayed, denied & abandoned Him. Sounds familiar!

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

I was away from the Church for 26 years–egregiously bad catechism was one prime reason (revert, 02/2002 )

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

And believed that it was not to be found in other Western churches. Many ex-Catholics become Episcopalians precisely because we claim to have and believe in the Real Presence.

But you’re right–many ex-Catholics don’t seem to care about the sacraments. What I think you are missing is that faith is not simply a set of propositions that can be proven logically. If people are not surrounded by experiences that bolster their faith, they will probably abandon it. You can rail against this reality all you like, but it remains reality.

Edwin

It is rather condescending to state that only poorly informed Catholics leave the church. I have known very dedicated catholics who have become very dedicated Baha’is, for example. I think more priests have left the Catholic church for the Episcopal Church than have gone in the other direction. Presumably these priests knew their catechism.

It is dangerous to judge the motives or knowledge of others.

Sometimes, when you approach a subject with genuine malice, that malice works on you and you end up becoming that thing you once hated.

 

[Teneas]

I was away from the Church for 26 years–egregiously bad catechism was one prime reason (revert, 02/2002 )

This is the scariest thing I have seen in our Church, and I agree with this poster. I am afraid we don’t teach our faith well enough, even to our own. It is a scary thought, but I hear of it more and more.

 

[Randy_Carson]

It is rather condescending to state that only poorly informed Catholics leave the church. I have known very dedicated catholics who have become very dedicated Baha’is, for example. I think more priests have left the Catholic church for the Episcopal Church than have gone in the other direction. Presumably these priests knew their catechism.

I’d be interested in reviewing any data if you have a link to a report on this.

As for priests leaving the Catholic Church, my only question is this: How many of them left due to issues surrounding sexuality or other moral issues?

 

[Lief_Erikson]

It is rather condescending to state that only poorly informed Catholics leave the church. I have known very dedicated catholics who have become very dedicated Baha’is, for example. I think more priests have left the Catholic church for the Episcopal Church than have gone in the other direction. Presumably these priests knew their catechism.

It is dangerous to judge the motives or knowledge of others.

Sometimes, when you approach a subject with genuine malice, that malice works on you and you end up becoming that thing you once hated.

All the ex-Catholics I’ve met were poorly catechized. I’ve had to explain to them some of the basics of what Catholic doctrine is and means.

 

[qui_est_ce]

… If people are not surrounded by experiences that bolster their faith, they will probably abandon it. You can rail against this reality all you like, but it remains reality.

Edwin

That’s why incense, bells, and (real) candles are so important. Don’t get me started on electric “candles.”

 

[Contarini]

It is rather condescending to state that only poorly informed Catholics leave the church. I have known very dedicated catholics who have become very dedicated Baha’is, for example. I think more priests have left the Catholic church for the Episcopal Church than have gone in the other direction. Presumably these priests knew their catechism.

I don’t know a lot of ex-Catholic Episcopal priests. I know a non-Episcopal Anglican priest who is an ex-Catholic, and I believe went to Catholic seminary but was not ordained in the Roman Communion. In North Carolina there was a Spanish-speaking priest who was an ex-Catholic, but I didn’t know him personally. The well-known Catholic priests who become Episcopalians are usually doing so because of their unorthodox theology (Matthew Fox is the most obvious example). I’m more sympathetic with the theology of such figures than I used to be, but I find Fox in particular (based on his writings) to be arrogant and presumptuous and not particularly profound.

Most of the ex-Catholic Episcopalians I know are laypeople, and again I have become more sympathetic with some of their reasons than I used to be. But it’s hard for me to avoid the conclusion that generally folks leave the Catholic Church for the Episcopal Church either because of the stringency of Catholic teaching (both with regard to faith and morals) or because they are fed up with the legalism and moral failings of the Catholic Church, particularly the clergy. I think it’s fair to say that such people generally do not have the same sense of entering into a fuller, richer communion with historic Christianity that those going the other way do. But there are flaws on the other side too–many of the converts to Catholicism seem hung up on minor points, deeply suspicious of women having any role in the Church (hostile to female altar servers, for instance), and generally emblematic of the traditional negative stereotypes of Anglo-Catholicism (well, except for the gay stereotype–those guys generally tend to stay Episcopalian, I think).

In Christ,

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

That’s why incense, bells, and (real) candles are so important. Don’t get me started on electric “candles.”

Yes, I agree. Sensory experience is a great strength of Catholicism, and one of the huge mistakes of post-Vatican-II Western Catholicism was to play this down.

Edwin

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

I’d be interested in reviewing any data if you have a link to a report on this.

As for priests leaving the Catholic Church, my only question is this: How many of them left due to issues surrounding sexuality or other moral issues?

Sorry, I don’t have data to hand, but I did read from a RC study that followed up on priests who left the RCC and about 400 had. The overwealming majority went to the Episcopal Church, but perhaps 15% went elsewhere. I believe that there have been about 200 priests admitted under the Pastoral Provision.

As to your question about sexuality or other issues, I don’t know. And of course, of those who did, how many went into faithful heterosexual marriages, and how many were attracted to other forms of sexuality?

I will look for the report. But certainly, in my region, I know of maybe 2 pastoral provision priests, and at least 4 catholic->episcopal priests, including Matthew Fox. Interestingly enough, the bishop of Long Island NY, James Provenzano is a former RC priest.

Apparently there is a fair amount of cooperation between the two communions on this. If a priest from one wants to go to the other, the former communion is happy to open its files with the consent of the applicant.