Thanks. There was a post long ago by someone (Ambrose?) who linked to a page by sAt. Thomas Aquinas or someone that explained how this was a philosophical term. I can’t find it. Does anyone have it handy or know where I can look?The substance of a thing is its … “thing-ness.” Not any descriptive thing about it, like size or shape or color or sound or taste or texture (those are all accidents) but the underlying reality of the thing. Normally, you can’t have a thing without having the accidents of that thing, and if you change the substance of a thing (from wood to ashes by fire, for example) the accidents also change (ashes do not look or otherwise respond to the senses like wood).
In transubstantiation, the claim is that the substance of the bread and wine – but not any of their accidents – is changed into the substance of Jesus’ body and blood. So the identity of what’s there is changed, from “bread-ness” and “wine-ness” to “Jesus-ness,” but every property that we can sense or measure remains that of bread or wine.
It’s a strange idea, to be sure, and it’s pretty much the only time we have to worry about a change of substance occurring undetectably. Some people mix up “substance” with scientific concepts like “molecular structure” and wonder why we can’t tell that the change has occurred with microscopes and other scientific instruments – but molecular structure still operates on the accidental level. When we say the substance changes, we mean that what this thing IS changes, not anything we can sense or measure.
Now, more recent systems of philosophy tend to deny that a thing has an underlying “thing-ness” that is separate from its actual properties. To some degree, Catholic theology is kind of shackled to older currents of philosophy because we use those terms to define what happens in the Eucharist. But no attempt to reproduce the same idea without using substance/accident terminology has been entirely successful.
Usagi
I doubt this is exactly what you were looking for, but this question in Aquinas’ Summa talks extensively about the substances. This page is the introduction of the topic and click the “Next” button to move on to the content of his explanations. ccel.org/ccel/aquinas/summa.TP_Q75.htmlThanks. There was a post long ago by someone (Ambrose?) who linked to a page by sAt. Thomas Aquinas or someone that explained how this was a philosophical term. I can’t find it. Does anyone have it handy or know where I can look?
So you’re saying two things cant inhabit the same place at the same time so Jesus and the bread (and wine) cant both be present at the same ? Its just Jesus alone?Substance is the essence of something, that which defines (actualizes) its matter or its being.
When we say the Father and Son are “consubstantial”, we are saying they have the same being with (con) each other; they are one Divinity, not two Divinity substances.
Here is a definition I found of consubstantial online:
Definition of consubstantial - Of one and the same substance. A concept especially necessary in Christian theology, as providing the unity between the three persons in the Trinity.
While Luther did not intend consubstantial this way, he intended it to mean both the substance of bread and the substance of the body of Christ dwelt in the same place, the material of bread remaining bread and the spiritual body of Christ somehow dwelling in the same space as the bread. So there would be two substances actualizing themselves in the matter on the altar, such that two things are in the same space on the altar.
But, Christ’s body is material, literally (he told his disciples to touch him, handle him, and see that he was not a spirit, not a ghost). And two bodies cannot occupy the same space (the body of bread and the body of Christ). And also, when Christ says on Sunday at Mass, “this is my body”, he is referring to the material in his hands (your priest’s hands) and not to some other invisible material that is in the same space.
?So you’re saying two things cant inhabit the same place at the same time so Jesus and the bread (and wine) cant both be present at the same ? Its just Jesus alone?
That seems consistent with this from the CCC:In the online article, The Sacrament of the Eucharist, Difficulties Answered from the Witings of Alphonsus Liguori, it says that Jesus is present in a supernatural, not natural manner in the Eucharist and that He exists sacramentally. Is that correct?
1374 The mode of Christ’s presence under the Eucharistic species is unique. It raises the Eucharist above all the sacraments as "the perfection of the spiritual life and the end to which all the sacraments tend."201 In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist "the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained."202 "This presence is called ‘real’ - by which is not intended to exclude the other types of presence as if they could not be ‘real’ too, but because it is presence in the fullest sense: that is to say, it is a *substantial *presence by which Christ, God and man, makes himself wholly and entirely present."203
1375 It is by the conversion of the bread and wine into Christ’s body and blood that Christ becomes present in this sacrament. The Church Fathers strongly affirmed the faith of the Church in the efficacy of the Word of Christ and of the action of the Holy Spirit to bring about this conversion. Thus St. John Chrysostom declares:
It is not man that causes the things offered to become the Body and Blood of Christ, but he who was crucified for us, Christ himself. The priest, in the role of Christ, pronounces these words, but their power and grace are God’s. This is my body, he says. This word transforms the things offered.204
And St. Ambrose says about this conversion:
Be convinced that this is not what nature has formed, but what the blessing has consecrated. The power of the blessing prevails over that of nature, because by the blessing nature itself is changed. . . . Could not Christ’s word, which can make from nothing what did not exist, change existing things into what they were not before? It is no less a feat to give things their original nature than to change their nature.205 1376 The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: "Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation."206
Correct - only one substance, if it is material, can inhabit an area of space at any given time. You are chewing flesh and sipping blood when you receive communion. That is what Jesus is understanding as he looks at his body and blood in your hands and in your mouth. He is thinking about and knowing what the Sacrament is at the same time that you are.So you’re saying two things cant inhabit the same place at the same time so Jesus and the bread (and wine) cant both be present at the same ? Its just Jesus alone?
Supernatural means that there is not a process of humans putting the right materials or ingredients together and out comes a little body of Christ cake. That would be the natural method of having a material substance. But supernatural means it cannot happen without something above or beyond the ability of nature to cause. The body and blood are caused by such a being above and beyond material natures (God)In the online article, The Sacrament of the Eucharist, Difficulties Answered from the Witings of Alphonsus Liguori, it says that Jesus is present in a supernatural, not natural manner in the Eucharist and that He exists sacramentally. Is that correct?
What exactly does it mean that these are here present “sacramentally”? I mean, what does it mean to be present “sacramentally”?Supernatural means that there is not a process of humans putting the right materials or ingredients together and out comes a little body of Christ cake. That would be the natural method of having a material substance. But supernatural means it cannot happen without something above or beyond the ability of nature to cause. The body and blood are caused by such a being above and beyond material natures (God)
Jesus exists, period. But the Sacrament exists sacramentally. Jesus’ “body” and Jesus’ “blood” - these exist without any sacrament. But these are here present sacramentally.
You wrote that he “exists sacramentally”, which is not what is. He exists without qualification.What exactly does it mean that these are here present “sacramentally”? I mean, what does it mean to be present “sacramentally”?
I dont know about that. DavidV says its consistent with the CCC.You wrote that he “exists sacramentally”, which is not what is. He exists without
Note that I do not disagree with John Martin’s explanation. I also find it consistent with the CCC.I dont know about that. DavidV says its consistent with the CCC.
So he does or doesnt exist sacramentally?Note that I do not disagree with John Martin’s explanation. I also find it consistent with the CCC.
What does sacramentally mean to you?davidv;12927605:
So he does or doesnt exist sacramentally?Note that I do not disagree with John Martin’s explanation. I also find it consistent with the CCC.
Faith1960;12927635:
Im not sure, but not in the mortal sense. What does it mean and does he exist sacramentally,?What does sacramentally mean to you?
davidv;12927690:
Then I’m not sure I can answer your question adequately. Because, depending on what you mean, my words may not mean to you what I intend.Im not sure, but not in the mortal sense.
There is an difference between Jesus “existing” and Jesus’ “presence”davidv;12927605:
So he does or doesnt exist sacramentally?Note that I do not disagree with John Martin’s explanation. I also find it consistent with the CCC.
Faith1960;12927635:
The last part of this seems to depart from Church teaching.There is an difference between Jesus “existing” and Jesus’ “presence”
An “existing being” can either be present or not present yet still existing either way.
Jesus exists, his body raised from the dead and ascended into heaven.
Yet he also takes bread into his hands and gives it to you saying, “This is my body; take it and eat it”. What you then have in your hand when you do take it is his body, present in your hand, his Sacramental presence, for your benefit.
Only his body and blood are the sacramental presence - his whole being is concomitantly present with the sacramental presence (his soul and divinity are never apart from his body and blood since his resurrection, making it a living body and blood, but only his body and blood are his material body. His soul and Divinity are not material. It is the substance of the material of bread and wine which the sacrament changes to the substance of his material body and blood).
Your body exists materially. Your soul exists spiritually. “You”, the whole “you”, are a composite, such that while you live, your soul is “concomitantly present” with your body. But your body is not “you”, but a part of you. Your soul goes wherever your body goes, in fact directs your body in its movement and life.
Jesus’ body and blood become present in the sacrament, but “Jesus himself” is wholly there only because it is living “food” and living “drink”, his soul goes wherever his body goes. And so with his divinity. But bread can never change into a soul, nor into divinity - it is material and can only be material. It is the soul that makes it a living body and living blood. The sacrament does not change anything into the soul of Christ.
This would indicate the not only are Christ’s body and blood present, but His soul and divinity also.CCC said:1377 The Eucharistic presence of Christ begins at the moment of the consecration and endures as long as the Eucharistic species subsist. Christ is present whole and entire in each of the species and whole and entire in each of their parts, in such a way that the breaking of the bread does not divide Christ.