Another topic about the crusades

[lookaround]

After reading several Catholics replies on the crusades and it being viewed as a positive. It has caused me to look at the topic from a different angle.

I would like to know if the RCC and/or the Catholics on this forum consider the crusades being of God or of man?

Apologies if the question is unclear.

 

[DavidFilmer]

I would like to know if the RCC and/or the Catholics on this forum consider the crusades being of God or of man?

The Crusades were of man. God does not compel us to do ANYTHING. We are created with Free Will - we make our own decisions, without divine meddling.

I had coffee this morning. This was also of man. God did not compel me to have coffee this morning (even though I usually don’t have coffee).

There is really no difference. It is really that simple. Really.

Everything a man does is “of man.” God does not force us to do anything. That is the definition of “free will.”

Now, if you ask if it was God’s divine Will for the crusades to happen - that’s an entirely different question.

 

[lookaround]

The Crusades were of man. God does not compel us to do ANYTHING. We are created with Free Will - we make our own decisions, without divine meddling.

I had coffee this morning. This was also of man. God did not compel me to have coffee this morning (even though I usually don’t have coffee).

There is really no difference. It is really that simple. Really.

Everything a man does is “of man.” God does not force us to do anything. That is the definition of “free will.”

Now, if you ask if it was God’s divine Will for the crusades to happen - that’s an entirely different question.

I don’t know too much about the crusades. Do you know if they were ordered by a Pope or a council?

 

[Katholish]

I don’t know too much about the crusades. Do you know if they were ordered by a Pope or a council?

Yes, having been called by the pope is part of the very definition of a crusade. Pope Urban II preached the first Crusade to the Holy Land in 1095.

They are “of God” insofar as they are sanctioned by the Church, but Catholics do not hold that this sanctioning was some kind of divine inspiration, but rather the pope, as head of the Church, making a prudential decision regarding the safety of the Church and the responsibility of princes.

 

[JimG]

A good, well researched, but reasonably short book on the subject is God’s Battalions by Rodney Stark.

 

[Major_Tom]

I had coffee this morning. This was also of man. God did not compel me to have coffee this morning (even though I usually don’t have coffee).

There is really no difference. It is really that simple. Really.

Yes, but if the Pope offered you an indulgence for having a muffin to go along with the coffee… would you be more or less likely to have the muffin?

 

[IHeartAquinas]

Yes, but if the Pope offered you an indulgence for having a muffin to go along with the coffee… would you be more or less likely to have the muffin?

Muffins and coffee for breakfast are a ubiquitous combination. I don’t think a muffin/coffee/indulgence combination would make the sales of muffins go through the roof, especially since there are much more profoundly reverent ways of attaining indulgences.

Also, you fail to understand what was being said. Indulgences are “of man” in that the Pope is a man. Such an indulgence would be done out of a sense of prudence for the faith and the Church (though unlikely that this particular combination would be worthy of an indulgence). GOD would not compel any of us to partake of it, nor would He compel the Pope to declare it as such.

ALL OF US have free will to make our own decisions. God does not compel us to do anything.

 

[Major_Tom]

Also, you fail to understand what was being said. Indulgences are “of man” in that the Pope is a man. Such an indulgence would be done out of a sense of prudence for the faith and the Church (though unlikely that this particular combination would be worthy of an indulgence). GOD would not compel any of us to partake of it, nor would He compel the Pope to declare it as such.

No, I think I understand. The Pope wants to encourage participation in an activity (paying money for the restoration of St. Peter’s, participating in a Crusade, etc.) so he offers an enticement to increase enrollment in the event.

Why else would he offer the indulgence?

ALL OF US have free will to make our own decisions. God does not compel us to do anything.

Agreed. I’m not aware of many people, Catholic or otherwise, who would say that God compels us to do anything.

 

[The_Scott]

The First Crusade was declared by Pope Urban II in (or around) 1054, as a response by the Byzantine Empire’s plea to stop the Turks from invading. Furthermore, it was to help secure a safe passage to Christian pilgrims going to the Holy Land.

The Pope also said that anyone who died during the Crusade would have their venial sins forgiven, not mortal sins.

 

[Zooey]

I don’t know, but I’m awfully glad they happened. Without the crusades, we would be almost certainly be living in a Muslim country, subject to sharia law.
Well, at least you all would. The modesty police would have had me beheaded long ago.:twocents:

 

[Pawel_J]

The First Crusade was declared by Pope Urban II in (or around) 1054, as a response by the Byzantine Empire’s plea to stop the Turks from invading. Furthermore, it was to help secure a safe passage to Christian pilgrims going to the Holy Land.

The Pope also said that anyone who died during the Crusade would have their venial sins forgiven, not mortal sins.

There was also a crusade against the Cathar heresy in Languedoc (South of France) in 1209 - 1229 - the so called Albigensian Crusade. It gave rise to the Holy Inquisition established in Toulouse in 1229 to suppress the heresy. Everything ended up with the genocide of tens of thousands of people. What was good in that crusade?

 

[Third_Day]

I cannot rule out that the crusades were part of God’s divine plan. What if no crusade had been called? What if the Moslems had been allowed to destroy the Holy Land, take over all of Europe and impose Sharia law and forced conversion.
Christ commisioned the Church to spread the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. How would that have happenned if Moslems were in control?
DIdn’t God command the Israelites to destroy various countries for His divine plan?
Just as I believe that the emperor Constantine had a vision that said, “By this sign conquer” and therefore end the 300 year persecution of the Church I believe that the hand of God was also in the crusades. DId fallible sinful men abuse this directive? Of course. But that does not take away the fact that without the Crusades we would be living in a much different world.

 

[Major_Tom]

There was also a crusade against the Cathar heresy in Languedoc (South of France) in 1209 - 1229 - the so called Albigensian Crusade. It gave rise to the Holy Inquisition established in Toulouse in 1229 to suppress the heresy. Everything ended up with the genocide of tens of thousands of people. What was good in that crusade?

Pawel, that crusade stamped out heresy! Isn’t that good?

(Now, do they make a sarcastic emoticon…?)

 

[The_Scott]

There was also a crusade against the Cathar heresy in Languedoc (South of France) in 1209 - 1229 - the so called Albigensian Crusade. It gave rise to the Holy Inquisition established in Toulouse in 1229 to suppress the heresy. Everything ended up with the genocide of tens of thousands of people. What was good in that crusade?

I must be frank and say that I don’t know that much about the Albigensian Crusade; so if you’ll allow me to take more time in researching the subject, I’d be grateful.

This is from the Catholic Encyclopedia (under the article “Alibigenses”), to get a sense of the politics prior to said crusade:
Catholic Encyclopedia:

Pope Eugene III (1145-53) sent a legate, Cardinal Alberic of Ostia, to Languedoc (1145), and St. Bernard seconded the legate’s efforts. But their preaching produced no lasting effect. The Council of Reims (1148) excommunicated the protectors “of the heretics of Gascony and Provence.”
That of Tours (1163) decreed that the Albigenses should be imprisoned and their property confiscated. A religious disputation was held (1165) at Lombez, with the usual unsatisfactory result of such conferences.
The Cardinal-Legate Peter made another attempt at peaceful settlement (1178), but he was received with derision.
The Third General Council of the Lateran (1179) renewed the previous severe measures and issued a summons to use force against the heretics, who were plundering and devastating Albi, Toulouse, and the vicinity.
At the death (1194) of the Catholic Count of Toulouse, Raymond V, his succession fell to Raymond VI (1194-1222) who favoured the heresy.

So with the above, it seems that the political terms were futile. There were attempts at diplomatic persuasion, political threats, economic threats, and legal threats, but no actual killing.

The article later on says the following: “The crusade now degenerated into a war of conquest, and [Pope] Innocent III, in spite of his efforts, was powerless to bring the undertaking back to its original purpose.”

So at first viewing, it seems that the Pope was not in control of the actual Crusade.

Also, St. Dominic took this chance to start the centralization of what would become the Dominican Order, as an Order of Preachers against the Cathars.How can that not be a blessing from God?

Allow me to study the matter more thoroughly, however, and I’ll get back to you with a more educated view.

 

[Pawel_J]

Pawel, that crusade stamped out heresy! Isn’t that good?

(Now, do they make a sarcastic emoticon…?)

Nobody should be allowed to kill other people or exhort anybody to kill in the name of God only because the others believe in a different way. In this case the pope Innocent 3rd was responsible for this barbarism.

 

[Mintaka]

The Albigensians were the ones who started the killing in Provence. They were a very nasty bunch, and they had the favor of powerful lords. They also were busy taking over, politically as well as religiously, one of the breadbaskets of Europe. It’s all very well to say “let the Dominicans convert everybody”, but the Albigensians were doing their best to kill Dominicans and eliminate Provencal Catholics.

The Albigensian Crusade wasn’t well run or well controlled. But Albigensians were a good deal like medieval Nazis. Something had to be done.