Another Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil Thread

[lemondiesel]

Two points I would like to discuss,

* God Created all, even the realms of Good and Evil. He created the Devil, which is the driving force of Evil
* Adam and Eve represent Man's first conscious act

God’s gift to us is free will, which if used properly, we are awarded eternal life. Yet in order to even give this gift, God had to create the realms of Good and Evil. Yet he needed some force that would present itself as an influence, giving us an optional choice. Without this, his creations would do Good, but only because it was instinct. They wouldn’t know why nor question.

Humans are naturally curious, and it reflects in children. However, if everything is “Good” then there are no choices for us to choose. God presented us the other choice, even the Devil can’t claim something evil without God declaring so. What is most worth noticing is why God declared the Tree of Knowledge. Knowledge is interpretations of reality, and diminishes the need for God. We can see this in today’s society, where many think the world and the universe work just the way they are suppose to; there is no need for God. Once the Tree of Knowledge was declared forbidden, the Devil becomes Temptation. Like being poisoned by a snake, Temptation slowly eats away at us. This was Man’s first “bad” act, which we were punished for. We were no longer apart of the pure Garden of Eden.

The Devil then had the ability to bring the Evil realm among us, which he did so. This now gives all of us the ability to choose between Good and Evil. I would also like to note that from this very story we can see that only God can Create things out of nothing, while the Devil is only limited to what God declares bad.

add- After reading over, this would imply that God’s view of Evil is necessary for us. He is always and eternally Good, and only used Evil to benefit us.

That’s all I got for now I guess…** I have been told I have a misunderstanding of Evil.**

 

[valentino]

Two points I would like to discuss,

* God Created all, even the realms of Good and Evil. He created the Devil, which is the driving force of Evil
* Adam and Eve represent Man's first conscious act

God’s gift to us is free will, which if used properly, we are awarded eternal life. Yet in order to even give this gift, God had to create the realms of Good and Evil. Yet he needed some force that would present itself as an influence, giving us an optional choice. Without this, his creations would do Good, but only because it was instinct. They wouldn’t know why nor question.

Humans are naturally curious, and it reflects in children. However, if everything is “Good” then there are no choices for us to choose. God presented us the other choice, even the Devil can’t claim something evil without God declaring so. What is most worth noticing is why God declared the Tree of Knowledge. Knowledge is interpretations of reality, and diminishes the need for God. We can see this in today’s society, where many think the world and the universe work just the way they are suppose to; there is no need for God. Once the Tree of Knowledge was declared forbidden, the Devil becomes Temptation. Like being poisoned by a snake, Temptation slowly eats away at us. This was Man’s first “bad” act, which we were punished for. We were no longer apart of the pure Garden of Eden.

The Devil then had the ability to bring the Evil realm among us, which he did so. This now gives all of us the ability to choose between Good and Evil. I would also like to note that from this very story we can see that only God can Create things out of nothing, while the Devil is only limited to what God declares bad.

add- After reading over, this would imply that God’s view of Evil is necessary for us. He is always and eternally Good, and only used Evil to benefit us.

That’s all I got for now I guess…** I have been told I have a misunderstanding of Evil.**

Dear lemondiesel:We’ll take this step by step.there was no realm of evil.il.Adam’s relatiiontionship to God was uniqque.Its as if they were joined together.Except their was just a tiny iti bit where there minds were not joined.That iti bit was the freedom to make a choice.Not alot of freedom because they were so tightly joined.it wasnt instinct.although it may be considered very close.Actually it was the tree of good and evil.
Regardless.now the snake comes along,sees eve,says “Did God say…” Eve says"no only this tree…" Satan:Surely you wont die,but God knows if you eat…your eyes will be open and you’ll become like god knowing good from evil"Eve saw that…did eat"Now what was Eve’'s sin.Disobedience yes.But mostly it was a sin of pride.In actuality she was saying I know God loves me,he created me,he gave me everything,Im closer than a brother,he’s always had all good intentions for me at heart.She says:I dont care.HOw do I know im being lied to?Well Im free.I can make a decision.So what that He’s never done anything But give me good thinngs.Im going to eat it anyway.She eats the apple.Adam and Eve are ashamed.They hide.Question:You and your dad are buddies.He gives you everything.Daddy can i have that toy?Here son. Daddy can we spend all day tommorrow to gether and do what ever we want?yes son.Daddy can we goto the movies Friday and eat popcorn?Yes son.And on and on and on.Son ive never asked anything from you your whole lfe have I?no.Son do 1 thing for me will you?Sure.Anything.Theres one toy in that box of 50 i dont want you to play with OK?Sure.A neighbor Boy comes over.Billy we’ve played with all the toys but there is one on the floor of the closet we havent touched.Stop.I think you get my point.When we inherited Adam sin we inherited his attitude.His now sinful nature.Mans most deadly sin.Pride.Its what keeps man from accepting.(im my own person.IM happy.I dont need God.I can have money ,woman,ect.)God bless you.

 

[rcjones]

There is no realm of evil.

The serpent was more subtle than the other animals.

If the serpent was more subtle, the other animals must have been less subtle, or more obvious. Obvious at what? At their temptation of Eve.

How did they tempt Eve? They ate of the tree. They were not commanded to not eat, so the animals could eat freely of it. As Eve saw the animals eating, she likely thought to herself… “They eat and don’t die, why? Oh because thy are animals. And I am different.”

Then the serpent suggested… Aren’t you an animal too? Show me how you are different. We all have similar designs of body frame, symmetry, bodily functions, respiration, etc. Don’t you bleed like an animal if you prick your finger. Hey it is likely we all evolved from the same blob of goo… We animals can eat of the tree because we eat instinctively. Didn’t God give us our instincts? Don’t we glorify God by doing what comes naturally? Doesn’t it look good and smell good? We animals don’t die. Surely God didn’t tell you you would die. Aren’t you an animal too?

You see original temptation hasn’t changed. Isn’t that the message of the world today? You are just an animal so do what comes naturally. We look to seagulls and walruses to justify homosexuality. We have people in cages at the London Zoo to emphasize we are just animals. We indoctrinate our children that we are not qualitatively different than any other species that crawled out of the goo.

But here’s the thing. Though we share many design properties with animals, God breathed his spirit into man, making him in his image. We have the capacity, and the duty to respond to God’s word. He gave the tree as a reminder that we were more than animals. That we were special.

So there is pain in child birth to remind us that we aren’t animals. Instinctive animals don’t have it and we should wonder why and remember that it is there because Eve chose being an animal over being human. It is a painful reminder. But we have a sabbath so we don’t pass time instinctively. We have meal prayers so we don’t eat instinctively. We have marriage so we don’t procreate instinctively. We have clothing, Mezuzzahs, teachings… all of these things to remind us that we are more than animals.

The first kind of sin, sin of the flesh, is simply living instinctively without considering and responding to God’s word. There is no need for a realm of evil. Too many Disney cartoons.

Though Satan is real, we don’t need him to sin. We have sufficient capacity in ourselves to do it. You see the flesh was created good. But it was created to be held in check by that wonderful nature of the spirit that God breathed into us. Rather than instinctively satisfying our own needs and wants, God gave us the capacity to think of others first.

Isn’t it a wonderful symmetry that the opposite of original sin (instinctive living) is the Golden rule (do unto others…) This is why Love is the fulfillment of the law. If you love God and your neighbor, you are not living instinctively like animals.

The second kind of sin is produced by the first. When we behave instinctively and are caught with our pants down (naked before God) we hide in the bushes and blame others and blame God. This is rebellion. The first a sin of the flesh, the second a sin of the spirit. Again, no need for a realm of evil.

Now the literal tree was an allegorical prophecy of Christ. There were two trees mentioned by name in Genesis but only one tree in Revelation. In the beginning God separated the revelation of himself into a revelation of Holiness and a revelation of Grace. These two things are difficult to understand if they are all mixed up.

The criminal is caught red handed but goes free, where is justice? So God’s law reveals his holiness and his grace was revealed in the sacrifices. He did this so we could understand his nature. He puts it all back together… reconciling law and grace on the cross, where all the sins of man are punished, by by taking them upon himself, he can let us go free.

We would think God a great big pansy if he just ignored our sin. We would have no respect for Him. But the cross reconciles us to Him giving us the opportunity for great awe… the essential nature of worship.

In the end Satan will be seen to be insignificant, we, having given him way too much importance. God uses people living like animals and rebellious people in order to show his justice. Death is a great reminder of the consequences of sin. Literal death is just a reminder of the source of pain and suffering in the world. Living instinctively and rebellion against God.

The naysayer shows his hypocrisy by claiming to be an animal then blaming God for suffering. You want to be an animal? Then God gives you what you want (Rom 1)… welcome to the dog eat dog world. You asked for it.

Oh you say you didn’t ask for it? When was the last time you lived instinctively without giving thought to what God wants for your life?

 

[lemondiesel]

Wow, thanks for the feedback. I will think over this today and reply back.

 

[Crumpy]

the seven deadly sins:

anger, greed, sloth, pride, lust, envy, and gluttony

Was not the sin of Adam and Eve all seven of the deadly sins? Yeah, pride is in the list, but so is gluttony – eating when you’re not hungry, eating what you don’t need to eat. seems like Eve’s sin was gluttony as much as pride, maybe all seven, in a way that I can’t explain just now.

But, gluttony as much as pride!

 

[PurrfectPenance]

She eats the apple…Son do 1 thing for me will you?Sure.Anything.Theres one toy in that box of 50 i dont want you to play with OK?..God bless you.

First, I’d like to begin by stating I am a firm believer of the Word of God. My most common reply when presented with a statement is, “Show me where the Bible says that.” OK, now that we have gotten that cleared up…

1. The apple…where in the Bible does it ever say Eve bit into an apple? Forbidden fruit, yes. Apple, no. If anything, the fig tree is mentioned a multitude of times in Scripture.
2. Why - God being all powerful and all mighty and all knowing - why would God even create the Tree of Knowledge? (Don’t say to give us free will. God wanted us to be happy, to enjoy, to obey.) Why even put that tree in there? Why even create the opportunity to open that door? Where in Scripture does it say why He chose to create the tree of good and evil? And being all knowing, doesn’t that mean He already knew of the fall? So what was He hoping for? Man to rewrite His story?
3. God bless you as well.

 

[rcjones]

1. Why - God being all powerful and all mighty and all knowing - why would God even create the Tree of Knowledge? (Don’t say to give us free will. God wanted us to be happy, to enjoy, to obey.) Why even put that tree in there? Why even create the opportunity to open that door? Where in Scripture does it say why He chose to create the tree of good and evil? And being all knowing, doesn’t that mean He already knew of the fall? So what was He hoping for? Man to rewrite His story?

.

God is perfect Holiness and perfect Love. These are revealed to us separately so that we can understand them and Him.

Holiness is revealed through separateness, obedience, justice, law, etc.
Love is revealed through bearing with sin, forgiveness, patience, long-suffering, self-control, etc.

If God’s revelation of Himself mixed these, we would have difficulty understanding them. If a judge forgives, we would say there is no justice for the grieved. We must understand these aspects separately.

The tree was separate (that is Holy). It was put there to show that even though we can walk with God in the garden, He is different from us. He is not the same species, he is not a man. We must acknowledge him as God and give him thanks (Rom 1:18ff)

Adam had the opportunity to learn of the Holiness of God through the symbol of the tree being set apart, and to acknowledge God by being obedient to not eat the fruit. Instead He chose to learn of God’s holiness through judgement.

The penalty of being cast out is simply a larger expression of being separate than merely not being able to eat the fruit.

So once Adam chose to disobey, he entered into the realm of being separate from God. Though God created the system of cause and effect, where sin causes suffering, pain and death, man is the one who chooses how much suffering, pain and death he will put into the world by his sin. This is the system that we choose.

God gives us what we want. We cry out for Barrabas representing chaos, and murder. And God gives it to us to let us wallow in the consequences. (Rom 1:18ff) He does this so we might learn of his holiness.

Whenever we think “Things are supposed to be better than this.” We acknowledge that there is a God capable of making things better than this. And we acknowledge that we are not Him. We are learning of God’s holiness the hard way.

We are told that God causes calamity
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil [calamity]: I the LORD do all these [things].
I think that a system of cause and effect qualifies. We choose to cause, and a the effect is already “programmed into the system”.

Once we understand the concepts of Holiness and Love, God puts it all back together in the revelation of himself through Jesus where Holiness and love are combined on the cross.

In the meantime, the consequence of suffering due to sin is designed to point us back to God, as we seek a path back to the garden. We all know it exists, because we all know that the world should be better than this.

BTW. This resolves the whole works issue. Obedience to God is not a work. It is an acknowledgement of His holiness. We are to trust and obey Him. “Man does not live by bread (my body given for you [the cross]) alone, but by every word which proceeds from the mouth of God.”

 

[Uzziah1]

Two points I would like to discuss,

* God Created all, even the realms of Good and Evil. He created the Devil, which is the driving force of Evil
* Adam and Eve represent Man's first conscious act

God’s gift to us is free will, which if used properly, we are awarded eternal life. Yet in order to even give this gift, God had to create the realms of Good and Evil. Yet he needed some force that would present itself as an influence, giving us an optional choice. Without this, his creations would do Good, but only because it was instinct. They wouldn’t know why nor question.

Humans are naturally curious, and it reflects in children. However, if everything is “Good” then there are no choices for us to choose. God presented us the other choice, even the Devil can’t claim something evil without God declaring so. What is most worth noticing is why God declared the Tree of Knowledge. Knowledge is interpretations of reality, and diminishes the need for God. We can see this in today’s society, where many think the world and the universe work just the way they are suppose to; there is no need for God. Once the Tree of Knowledge was declared forbidden, the Devil becomes Temptation. Like being poisoned by a snake, Temptation slowly eats away at us. This was Man’s first “bad” act, which we were punished for. We were no longer apart of the pure Garden of Eden.

The Devil then had the ability to bring the Evil realm among us, which he did so. This now gives all of us the ability to choose between Good and Evil. I would also like to note that from this very story we can see that only God can Create things out of nothing, while the Devil is only limited to what God declares bad.

add- After reading over, this would imply that God’s view of Evil is necessary for us. He is always and eternally Good, and only used Evil to benefit us.

That’s all I got for now I guess…** I have been told I have a misunderstanding of Evil.**

The problem with discussing the Tree of Knowledge is that it can’t really be well done unless we talk about it as though it were allegory, which gently implies that Adam and Eve are allegory, which gently implies the correctness of evolution, which s a prohibited topic in this website.

 

[patg]

The problem with discussing the Tree of Knowledge is that it can’t really be well done unless we talk about it as though it were allegory, which gently implies that Adam and Eve are allegory, which gently implies the correctness of evolution, which s a prohibited topic in this website.

Well, you can get around that a little bit by looking at the literary form of the story (as described in *And God Said What? *by Margaret Ralph):

The story of the man and the woman in the garden is a myth. It is an imaginative story that uses symbols to explore a realty beyond the author’s comprehension. The reality being explored is “Why do human beings suffer?” In its present position, coming after a story nowhere near as old, the question becomes even more mysterious. Given the beliefs that God is all loving and all powerful, that God made humans human beings in God’s own image, and that we are very good, why do we suffer? You would think God would have created things in an order that didn’t involve suffering. Why pain in childbirth? Why death? Suffering appears to be part of the order of things. All of this is very mysterious. How can our belief that God is all loving and all powerful be made compatible with our experience of suffering?

The author who chose to explore this question does not have the option of giving an historical explanation. He doesn’t know a historical explanation. The author makes it very evident that his genre is not historical by his obvious use of symbols.

Also, the catechism states: *The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event,…

 

[rcjones]

The problem with discussing the Tree of Knowledge is that it can’t really be well done unless we talk about it as though it were allegory, which gently implies that Adam and Eve are allegory, which gently implies the correctness of evolution, which s a prohibited topic in this website.

Moses literally lifted up a serpent in the wilderness which represented Christ bearing our sins on the cross allegorically.

Israel literally passed through the waters as they left Egypt, yet allegorically it represented baptism and the death burial and resurrection of Jesus.

Since the church teaches that there are four layers of meaning, called the Quadriga, literal events can be interpreted as allegorical without contradicting a literal interpretation.

I personally believe in a literal Adam and Eve and a literal garden and a literal tree, the events have a moral lesson, as well as a prophetic message of Christ.

As a prophetic message, the two trees are one tree, as we see joined in Revelation as the roots are parted by the stream. They are both Christ and represent him as the one who gives life or death depending upon our response to him. God’s Holiness and Love were joined and the cross which is also called a tree.

 

[grannymh]

Well, you can get around that a little bit by looking at the literary form of the story (as described in *And God Said What? *by Margaret Ralph):

The story of the man and the woman in the garden is a myth. It is an imaginative story that uses symbols to explore a realty beyond the author’s comprehension. The reality being explored is “Why do human beings suffer?” In its present position, coming after a story nowhere near as old, the question becomes even more mysterious. Given the beliefs that God is all loving and all powerful, that God made humans human beings in God’s own image, and that we are very good, why do we suffer? You would think God would have created things in an order that didn’t involve suffering. Why pain in childbirth? Why death? Suffering appears to be part of the order of things. All of this is very mysterious. How can our belief that God is all loving and all powerful be made compatible with our experience of suffering?

The author who chose to explore this question does not have the option of giving an historical explanation. He doesn’t know a historical explanation. The author makes it very evident that his genre is not historical by his obvious use of symbols.

Also, the catechism states: The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event,…

The primeval event (original fault freely committed CCC 390) is that the first human person deliberately scorned his Creator (CCC 398). Personally, I do not see this loss of harmony as mysterious. But then, I am only a simple granny who occasionally is cranky.

 

[GFRDHa1]

Wow, thanks for the feedback.http://www.50centloseweight.com

 

[fhansen]

The knowledge of good and evil is the natural consequence of a sentient, rational being with free will disobeying his creator. IOW, disobedience of God*** is*** evil, i.e. anything outside the will of God is evil. Man now lives in a disordered state, separated from God, a state chosen by Adam but one still operative in us and reflected in our own sins, which themselves are a reflection of our own preference to remain distanced from God. Anyway, once man is no longer under Gods’ wing, so to speak, once man disobeys God, determining right and wrong for himself, then evil is known, because mans’ choices are often, simply, wrong and in any case are outside of Gods direct control and perfect will. Good was already known in the garden, even if not recognized as such, since all creation is good in and of itself.

We must consciously and freely place ourselves in a position of obedience vis a vis God. All of this is why the Catechism says the following:

**396 God created man in his image and established him in his friendship. A spiritual creature, man can live this friendship only in free submission to God. The prohibition against eating “of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” spells this out: "for in the day that you eat of it, you shall die."276 The "tree of the knowledge of good and evil"277 symbolically evokes the insurmountable limits that man, being a creature, must freely recognize and respect with trust. Man is dependent on his Creator, and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom.
**

 

[Jerry-Jet]

God said not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Would it have been OK for Adam and Eve to cut it down and burn it?

 

[patg]

God said not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Would it have been OK for Adam and Eve to cut it down and burn it?

And then roasted the snake! That would have been a great solution to all our problems…

Nothing like a myth to open up endless possibilities!

 

[grannymh]

God said not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Would it have been OK for Adam and Eve to cut it down and burn it?

And before he roasted the snake, suggested by Patg, Adam could have made a purse of snake skin for Eve.

Neither a warm fire nor a present for Eve will make a whit of difference when it comes to Divine Revelation that an actual, real, live, first human being freely committed an actual, real Original Sin. The organic tree and the garden snake are considered figurative language, i.e., more analogical not necessarily allegorical or an unsubstantiated myth.

 

[patg]

Neither a warm fire nor a present for Eve will make a whit of difference when it comes to Divine Revelation that an actual, real, live, first human being freely committed an actual, real Original Sin. The organic tree and the garden snake are considered figurative language, i.e., more analogical not necessarily allegorical or an unsubstantiated myth.

Just as an aside, I know that is a church doctrine and I know one *must *believe it but after 12 years of catholic school and more years than I care to admit thinking about it, I still think Original Sin is one of the most ridiculous concepts the church insists on. The story stands on its own perfectly well as an ancient myth exploring the nature of suffering (there is suffering when we disobey God…).

Someone once said “The heart will never worship what the mind rejects”. The ancient belief that the children are punished for the sins of the parents (as mentioned even in the gospels - John:9, 1-3) went out a long time ago.

 

[grannymh]

Just as an aside, I know that is a church doctrine and I know one *must *believe it but after 12 years of catholic school and more years than I care to admit thinking about it, I still think Original Sin is one of the most ridiculous concepts the church insists on. The story stands on its own perfectly well as an ancient myth exploring the nature of suffering (there is suffering when we disobey God…).

Someone once said “The heart will never worship what the mind rejects”. The ancient belief that the children are punished for the sins of the parents (as mentioned even in the gospels - John:9, 1-3) went out a long time ago.

Since being on CAF, I have heard so many stories about Original Sin that I truly wonder how they originated. One of the newer stories, to me, is that there is an ancient myth exploring the nature of suffering. Since such a myth would be valuable in understanding the current environment, I am most interested in it.

I can understand how suffering can be connected to ones’ choice to physically sin such as misusing alcohol or drugs in contradiction to the good of one’s anatomy.

What I want to know is –
What is the direct connection between the Catholic doctrines about Original Sin and an ancient myth exploring the nature of suffering?