Another Vatican council needed: Kung [CNAU]

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Catholic_Press

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Dec 8, '09 5:00 pm
Theologian Fr Hans Kung said the Church needs another Vatican council to move reforms forward, The Age reports.

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We need a Trent II to fix, revise, and clarify Catholic Belief and fix Vatican II, prefer revise it heavily to remove all ambiguity, if not revoke Vatican II.
 
Some of those comments are scary. Fr. Kung again seems to have a lot of time on his hands. Perhaps he wants to explore another niche in the marketplace among atheists, Muslims, Taoists, and Buddhists to sell his theories?
 
ravenonthecross said:
We need a Trent II to fix, revise, and clarify Catholic Belief and fix Vatican II, prefer revise it heavily to remove all ambiguity, if not revoke Vatican II.
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Revoke Vatican ll? Kind of talk that is tearing our Faith in half. I agree better definition should done on Vatican ll but not to revoke it. Catholic teacing is Catholic teaching and we much follow the holy father. I trust in God that He has placed a good Bishop on the seat of Peter.
 
perhaps you should re-read it; I said that if we’re NOT GOING TO REVOKE IT: IT NEEDS TO BE REVISED, and clarified. The orthodox parts are to be keep and deepened and clarified and the ambiguous and nigh-heretical or potentially ambiguous enough to be ALMOST, [BUT NOT QUITE] heretical needs to be erased out of Vatican II; this is why a Trent II is sorely needed to do so. the Catholic Church needs a thorough orthodox neo-CounterReformation, and a clear Council in like manner as Trent II was expelling Modernism, Liberalism, Post-Modernism, etc.
 
I doubt this will ever happen, since BXVI is very commited to go forward with the ecumenism thing.

i wish at least, he would call all the Bishops around the world and have a talk with them.

Peace
 
Revision of the mass does not require another council. There have been revisions in the past 15 years and there continues to be today.
 
Catholic_Press said:
Dec 8, '09 5:00 pm
Theologian Fr Hans Kung said the Church needs another Vatican council to move reforms forward, The Age reports.

More…
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What the Catholic Church does NOT need is more advice from Hans Kung. He & his cohorts from the countries by the Rhine river, especially his follower Karl Rahner, did quite enought damage during the council.

Having consistently criticized papal authority, he became the first major Roman Catholic theologian to reject the doctrine of papal infallibility in his book “Infallible?”. In 1979 he was stripped of his right to teach as a Roman Catholic theologian.
 
ravenonthecross said:
perhaps you should re-read it; I said that if we’re NOT GOING TO REVOKE IT: IT NEEDS TO BE REVISED, and clarified. The orthodox parts are to be keep and deepened and clarified and the ambiguous and nigh-heretical or potentially ambiguous enough to be ALMOST, [BUT NOT QUITE] heretical needs to be erased out of Vatican II; this is why a Trent II is sorely needed to do so. the Catholic Church needs a thorough orthodox neo-CounterReformation, and a clear Council in like manner as Trent II was expelling Modernism, Liberalism, Post-Modernism, etc.]

Those are some excellent ideas that I have thought a little about myself. Your reference to “potentially ambiguous to be ALMOST heretical…but not quite”, describes exacrly what happened.
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=Catholic Press;6032610]Dec 8, '09 5:00 pm
Theologian Fr Hans Kung said the Church needs another Vatican council to move reforms forward, The Age reports.
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More…
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Wow:o

So now he’s willing to work within the church?

Of far greater need, and as I understand it, one being addressed; His Holiness in October appointed a committee to review and report on what the teachings of Vatican II actually were. That’s an idea worth our prayers,

Pat
 
ProVobis said:
Some of those comments are scary. Fr. Kung again seems to have a lot of time on his hands. Perhaps he wants to explore another niche in the marketplace among atheists, Muslims, Taoists, and Buddhists to sell his theories?
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Well I can see where he is coming from and had you ever taken a look inside a Catholic Church building in Germany you would understand.
The parish I was baptized in used to be one of 15 parishes in the city I grew up in. The churches got empty more and more and priests are lacking. Now those 15 parishes are partly closed and led by 3 priests. One of them, who is now leading the parish I was baptized in happens to be a friend of mine. He had been brought into a higher office and asked to come back because of the lack.
Another friend of mine is better off. He shares 4 parishes with another priest.
The church I went to last is going to be part of something like this too in the near future or is already there. When I moved away the pastor had 2 parishes. The plan back then was to give him 3 more to the two he already has… and that is just the number of priests.
The village I grew up in has a parish that is now not having an individual pastor anymore either. Back when I was a child there was one who cared for 2 parishes. He retired and now this church is part of a group of 4 churches… and that’s really close to the archdiocese of cologne, a Catholic dominated area… the diocese itself has only few Protestant churches and is Catholic dominated too…
When I was a teenager there were never more than 150 in church… in 2 villages with nearly 100% Catholics and a total of little over 1800 inhabitants… and that’s on a Sunday. On a weekday you might find 5 parishioners in church…
It even happened to me that there was a day when the lady who plays the organ was on vacation and I was the only one in the pew… We had a mass with 1 priest, 2 altar servers and me as the congregation (I was an altar server too back then). We decided to hold the mass around the altar to make it easier…
You see where I’m getting at?
 
Janet1983 said:
Well I can see where he is coming from and had you ever taken a look inside a Catholic Church building in Germany you would understand.(1)
…
It even happened to me that there was a day when the lady who plays the organ was on vacation and I was the only one in the pew… We had a mass with 1 priest, 2 altar servers and me as the congregation (I was an altar server too back then). We decided to hold the mass around the altar to make it easier…
You see where I’m getting at?(2)
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  1. See where he is coming from?
“we did not discuss divorce though dozens of millions of Catholics are in this situation; and we did not discuss women’s issues like conception”

What’s to discuss? Its already been spoken on by hundreds of years of Church teaching. The Church isn’t relative. Truth is Truth.

“Instead, it was trying to restore the pre-Vatican II church…”

The pre-Vatican II church? What, is that some insult? pre-Vatican II, hmm, would that happen to include Jesus and Peter?
  1. I don’t see where you getting at. Attendance based on wishy washy principles and compromise is false attendance. And since when has Mass been about what is easy? That is a disgraceful approach to take to Mass. I can’t believe you assisted Mass on the altar, let alone because it was “easier.”
 
franklinf said:
  1. See where he is coming from?
“we did not discuss divorce though dozens of millions of Catholics are in this situation; and we did not discuss women’s issues like conception”

What’s to discuss? Its already been spoken on by hundreds of years of Church teaching. The Church isn’t relative. Truth is Truth.

“Instead, it was trying to restore the pre-Vatican II church…”

The pre-Vatican II church? What, is that some insult? pre-Vatican II, hmm, would that happen to include Jesus and Peter?
  1. I don’t see where you getting at. Attendance based on wishy washy principles and compromise is false attendance. And since when has Mass been about what is easy? That is a disgraceful approach to take to Mass. I can’t believe you assisted Mass on the altar, let alone because it was “easier.”
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Well if the CC truly cares for her members there are 2 ways to handle this:
  1. Discuss, declare conservative statements to be true and make sure that all Catholics know the demands of the Church and the results from disobedience. Catholic Religious Education is part of every Catholics school curriculum in public schools in Germany.
  2. Discuss, loosen the rules by making exceptions and still tell everybody…
Secularization is gnawing away the roots of all denominations in Germany apart from a few non-denominational churches and apart from a few Baptist churches.
In a time when everybody can get whatever he or she wants and can strive for every sexual pleasure it seems that those churches who place rigid rules upon their members have no problem with secularization.
The state-subsidized churches (Catholic and Lutheran/Reformed) see their members fleeing the pews and the remaining members getting older and passing on.

Edit: The churches that refute the secular movement by the way are frequently called names as fundamentalists and radicals…
I am of the opinion that the CC needs to go back to the roots (radix) if she actually wants to survive.
 
Janet1983 said:
Well if the CC truly cares for her members there are 2 ways to handle this:
  1. Discuss, declare conservative statements to be true and make sure that all Catholics know the demands of the Church and the results from disobedience. Catholic Religious Education is part of every Catholics school curriculum in public schools in Germany.
  2. Discuss, loosen the rules by making exceptions and still tell everybody…
Secularization is gnawing away the roots of all denominations in Germany apart from a few non-denominational churches and apart from a few Baptist churches.
In a time when everybody can get whatever he or she wants and can strive for every sexual pleasure it seems that those churches who place rigid rules upon their members have no problem with secularization.
The state-subsidized churches (Catholic and Lutheran/Reformed) see their members fleeing the pews and the remaining members getting older and passing on.
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I completely agree with #1. That is exactly what needs to be done. Like you said we are in an era of secularization. The Church must not compromise but at the same time it must teach.
 
ravenonthecross said:
perhaps you should re-read it; I said that if we’re NOT GOING TO REVOKE IT: IT NEEDS TO BE REVISED, and clarified. The orthodox parts are to be keep and deepened and clarified and the ambiguous and nigh-heretical or potentially ambiguous enough to be ALMOST, [BUT NOT QUITE] heretical needs to be erased out of Vatican II; this is why a Trent II is sorely needed to do so. the Catholic Church needs a thorough orthodox neo-CounterReformation, and a clear Council in like manner as Trent II was expelling Modernism, Liberalism, Post-Modernism, etc.
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What “nigh-heretical or potentially ambiguous enough to be ALMOST, [BUT NOT QUITE] heretical” bits are you speaking of? I know none that exist within this context.
 
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