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Prague
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Yes!
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tdgesq
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The Roman Catholic Church is fine. Even Atemi is okay with it, so it must be alright. Besides, it distinguishes us from the Eastern Catholic Churches, even though we are in communion. Btw, despite Atemi’s suggestion to the contrary, most Eastern Orthodox on this forum call it the Roman Catholic Church, and we call them the Orthodox Church. It doesn’t mean that they see us as fully catholic or we see them as fully orthodox.
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ElizabethPH
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Roman Catholic is a rite not a title. We are really the Church of Christ.
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Petergee
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Yes!
Even if we didn’t know of the hateful and bigoted way that description has been used in the past, it is simply not true. I am not a citizen of Rome, and Rome has churches of many different denominations.
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JKirkLVNV
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The Holy Father was called Patriarch of the West, but that title has been dropped.
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Atemi
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There should be no reason calling the RCC “the Roman church” should offend anyone as that is what the RCC often calls herself.
I have referred to the RCC as “the Roman church” in the past and heve unfortunately gotten attacked for it. This never made any sense to me at all.
We must remember that there are those, no matter how well meaning, who will perceive offense wherever they can, whether it is there or not.
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Atemi
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I am sorry. I thought I was quite clear.
I will repeat myself.
Faithful Orthodox will not refer to the RCC as the Catholic Church.
This is true.
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rtconstant
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Well you could just call us The Church.
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Petergee
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Cite?
Maybe you should ask a black person whether he minds you calling him “n*****r” because YOU personally don’t mean any offence by it and YOU’RE not responsible for how others have used it in the past!
Not to mention that “RCC” and “Roman Church” are simply factually incorrect (regardless of anyone’s beliefs) as several here have pointed out.
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Atemi
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This is common knowledge.
CANON III.-If any one saith, that in the Roman church, which is the mother and mistress of all churches, there is not the true doctrine concerning the sacrament of baptism; let him be anathema. (Trent: On Baptism)
CCC 1383 The liturgy expresses this unity of sacrifice and communion in many prayers. Thus the Roman Church prays in its anaphora…
Between and beyond just those two little bookends are similar authoritative citations that could probably fill volumes. Why anyone would claim offense to something that is readily accepted is beyond me.
Can you explain why any Roman Catholic would reject what the RCC herself already accepts and readily employs?
“Regardless of anyone’s beliefs”?
Well I have cited both the Council of Trent and the present Catechism. I have not even begun to cite any of the numerous other references to the same.
If there is some reason why I cannot trust Trent or the Catechism, please let me know.
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The term “Roman Church” is acceptable only for the Roman church.
It is not acceptable for other Catholics who are not Roman
The term “Roman” is therefore insufficient to cover the Catholic faith, since it is not the faith of just the Roman church.
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Petergee
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OK out of charity I’m going to assume you’re speaking from simple naivete rather than deliberate bigotry. Is there any reason why you can’t work out from the fact that Trent refers to all the other churches of which Rome is the mother and mistress, and from the fact that the CCC refers to “its [Rome’s] anaphora” (as opposed to the 12 others which are approved for use in the Latin-rite Catholic Church and dozens of others in the Eastern Catholic Churches), that they are both referring to the diocese of Rome? Do you think an Anglican/Episcopalian in San Francisco or Port Moresby would be offended if you said he belonged to “the Canterburian Church”? (even though that term has none of the horrible historical connotations that your offensive terms for the Catholic Church have).
Can you explain why you would deliberately continue using these two terms towards Catholics who have just pointed out that they are offensive and factually incorrect?
Indeed, we’re not talking about whether you agree with Catholic doctrine or not. We’re talking about what everyone knows the Catholic Church is and is not, even if they think Catholicism and/or all of Christianity is a load of baloney.
You can trust them with your life, just stop distorting them.
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Atemi
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Thank you for such kindness.
The OP asked:
“My question is this, is there a way to refer to the RCC’s set of beliefs without using the word “Catholic”?”
To refer to the beliefs of the Roman Church, by definition, is to refer to the beliefs of the Roman Catholic Church.
The beliefs are one and the same. This is why all Catholics must be unified in their doctrine with that of the Roman Church.
In fact, speaking of the entire Roman Catholic community:
CCC 1059 “The holy Roman Church firmly believes and confesses that on the Day of Judgment all men will appear in their own bodies before Christ’s tribunal to render an account of their own deeds”
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM
References like this are common and acceptable all through Catholic sources.
I have no interest in being rude, but I have no interest in denying what is plain to all either.
What two terms?
I have only been addressing the accepted use of “Roman Church” when speaking of the beliefs and doctrines the RCC.
They are synonymous.
Now if you do not hold to some/any of the doctrines that the Roman Church teaches must be held, then correct me.
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Atemi
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Must not the faith of the entire Catholic faith be in harmony and agree totally to that of the Roman Church?
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FightingFat
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He’s right actually!
The term Catholic has been used by some to distinguish their own position from a Calvinist or Puritan form of Reformed-Protestantism. These include High Church Anglicans, known also as “Anglo-Catholics”, 19th century Neo-Lutherans, 20th century High Church Lutherans or evangelical-catholics and others.
I think the OP’s problem stems from the fact that most Reformation and post-Reformation Churches use the term Catholic (sometimes with a lower-case c) to refer to the belief that all Christians are part of one Church, regardless of denominational divisions. It is in line with this interpretation, which applies the word “catholic”/“universal” to no one denomination, that they understand the phrase “One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church” in the Nicene Creed, the phrase “the catholic faith” in the Athanasian Creed, and the phrase “holy catholic church” in the Apostles’ Creed.
This seems like a bit of a cop out to me personally. They broke with the unified Church and then want to somehow re-identify with it as being part of the body of Christ. Of course as Catholics we agree that we are all Christians unified in Baptism.
Ultimately, Ignatius’ letter to Smyrna in 106 is the earliest documented usage of the term καθολικός being used to refer to the Catholic Church we here are members of today, that was in 106 AD. For him to use it, it would have to have been in a recognisable context.
Irrespective of the OP’s feelings about the validity of the term it seems pretty historically valid and accurate!
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Petergee
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The dogma must be the same as the Roman Church, and of the Sydney Church and the New York Church and every other particular church which makes up the Catholic Church. This is a very different thing from saying that “The Roman Church” is, or means the same thing as, the Catholic Church. It does not, and to make or imply this assertion is deeply offensive to Catholics. We are not “the Roman Church” or “the RCC” or “papists” or whetever other pejoratives you name. We are the Catholic Church.
To assert that it Catholics can’t object to this because the Catholic Church speaks of the particular term “the Roman Church”, is as ludicrous as asserting that black people can’t object to being called “n****r” because it’s virtually just the Latin word for “black”, right? Who could object to such a simple descriptive term?
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Atemi
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Wait a second.
We all know the doctrine of all Catholic churches must not be in unity and harmony with the some Roman Catholic church in Sydney. I am shocked you would make this claim.
All Catholic churches must be in unity with one church: the Roman church. I am not saying anything here that every well catechised Catholic does not already know.
“Roman Catholic Church” (RCC) is not a pejorative as that also is used regularly by Catholic leadership and lay Catholics alike.
**Why can’t non-Catholics use the same terms Catholics use themselves? **
As to insisting be called the “Catholic Church,” I spoke on that earlier. Many churches insist on being called the “Catholic Church.” Yours is not the only one.
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The faith must agree with the Magisterium, but the Magisterium isn’t limited to the church of Rome, but consists of all Catholic bishops in union with the Pope.
That does not mean the Pope dictates the faith. There are many expressions and understandings of the same faith within the Catholic Church. Rather, he confirms it, and only when necessary. But that does not make the Church Roman. Only the Roman church is Roman. The Church is Catholic.
So to call us who are of the Roman Church “Roman Catholics” is fine and valid. Don’t call Byzantine Catholics “Roman”.
But the Catholic faith is the Catholic faith. It isn’t the Roman faith.
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ASimpleSinner
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It simply isn’t accurate.
20M+ of us are Catholic but not Roman, like this here Byzantine Catholic…
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ASimpleSinner
Guest
More accurately some of the stricter to more hardline groups in Eastern Orthodoxy will tend to refrain from doing so…
I know many Orthodox priests bishops and faithful who use the term Catholic Church to describe the church lead by the Pope of Rome. I would not assert that they are unfaithful or less faithful than those who go out of their way to use a more nuanced polemic parlance. (A lot of the latter then also go out of their way to self-describe themselves as “The Holy Catholic Orthodox Church” from time to time throwing in “Most” for good measure.)
Ask a man on the street where the nearest Catholic Church is I don’t know how many would need clarification what you were intending to mean. Would simple use of the term “Catholic” - as it is accepted broadly by secular and other religious groups - be that difficult?
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