Answer to Born Again Bash on Catholicism

[mlchance]

Cut and paste this:
You said, in part, in your email:

**The Roman Emperor Constantine established himself as the head of the church around 313 A.D., which made this new “Christianity” the official religion of the Roman Empire. **

This is not true, as any high school text on Roman and early medieval history can verify. Constantine’s Edict of Milan (A.D. 313) was a decree of religious toleration that merely made it legal to be Christian. Christianity did not become the official religion of the Roman Empire until well after Constantine’s death.

Given your inability to get right a basic and widely known fact pertaining to history, I feel confident in ignoring the rest of your claims as equally false.



– Mark L. Chance.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

Cut and paste this:
You said, in part, in your email:

This is not true, as any high school text on Roman and early medieval history can verify. Constantine’s Edict of Milan (A.D. 313) was a decree of religious toleration that merely made it legal to be Christian. Christianity did not become the official religion of the Roman Empire until well after Constantine’s death.

Given your inability to get right a basic and widely known fact pertaining to history, I feel confident in ignoring the rest of your claims as equally false.



– Mark L. Chance.

ROTFL!

 

[strngrnrth]

newprotestants.com/2babylons.htm Is the site of Ralph Woodrow, who wrote a book for modern readers rehashing for modern readers the false information your friend sent you, taken from the poorly researched (even by 19th Century standards) book by Alexander Hislop.
In this site, Woodrow recants and patiently explains the problems with the Babylon Connection version of history. He makes it very easy to understand.
It isn’t realistic to think your friend is necessarily ignorant, hateful or insincere. He is probably just in a subculture filled witht his version of reality. It becomes very hard to judge ideas when they are repeated enough. That is how cults change people’s thnking. Most people who are coercively persuaded of irrational things are very bright and sincere going in. The repetition changes their thought patterns. Be patient and don’t startle him away.

 

[Church_Militant]

The Plain Truth about
the Roman Catholic Church

The Roman Catholic Church claims to have started in Matthew 16:18 when Christ supposedly appointed Peter as the first Pope. However, the honest and objective student of the Scriptures and history soon discovers that the foundation of the Roman church is none other than the pagan mystery religion of ancient Babylon.

** :yawn:
**Hunting the Whore of Babylon
**The Whore of Babylon
**Is Catholicism Pagan?

While enduring the early persecutions of the Roman government (65-300 A.D.), most of professing Christianity went through a gradual departure from New Testament doctrine concerning church government, worship and practice. Local churches ceased to be autonomous by giving way to the control of “bishops” ruling over hierarchies. The simple form of worship from the heart was replaced with the rituals and splendor of paganism. Ministers became “priests,” and pagans became “Christians” by simply being sprinkled with water. This tolerance of an unregenerate membership only made things worse. SPRINKLED PAGANISM is about the best definition for Roman Catholicism.

See above, and also the writings of the ECF like The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans and Martyrdom of Polycarp and then tell me if the so called “Anabaptists” believe any of that. they don’t. Look at Ignatius’ comments about those who reject the Eucharistic Real Presence in chapter 7.

Oh…and these two Trail of Blood: Baptist Successionism ~ “Apostolic Succession of Heresy” & Trail of Blood: What about “Baptist Successionism”? (Word.doc)

The Roman Emperor Constantine established himself as the head of the church around 313 A.D., which made this new “Christianity” the official religion of the Roman Empire.

A complete historical misrepresentation.
A “Christian Church” in Antiquity? (This Rock: December 2004)

**Quick Questions (This Rock: July 1992)**Q: How can you deny that Constantine was the first pope and that he personally instituted the Roman Catholic Church at the Council of Nicaea (where he also invented the unbiblical doctrine of the Trinity)? It’s a matter of historical fact.

A: We deny it on the excellent ground that it isn’t true.

Flavius Valerius Constantinus (275-337) reigned as the Roman emperor between 306 and 337. He never was pope–he wasn’t even baptized a Christian until he lay on his deathbed. He attributed to Christ his winning a decisive battle in Rome at the Milvian Bridge.

Legend has it that a large cross appeared in the sky over his troops, and superimposed on the cross were the words In hoc signo vinces, “In this sign you conquer.” As a result of his victory, he promptly lifted the empire-wide ban on Catholicism (Edict of Milan, 313). Although he didn’t make Christianity the state religion, it achieved that status by the end of the century.

In 325 the Emperor convoked the First Council of Nicaea to deal with the Arian heresy. The pope at the time of the Nicaean council was Sylvester I; reigned from January 1, 314 to December 31, 335. He was the thirty-third bishop of Rome (and therefore pope), which means Constantine hardly could have been the first pope.

The charge that Constantine invented the doctrine of the Trinity can be disproved by studying the writings of the Church Fathers. They taught the doctrine and even used the word “Trinity” as early as the year 181. (For citations see “The Fathers Know Best,” This Rock, July 1991, 23-24).

The first actual Pope in Rome was probably Leo I (440-461 A.D.), although some claim that Gregory I was the first (590-604 A.D.). This ungodly system eventually ushered in the darkest period of history known to man, properly known as the “Dark Ages” (500-1500 A.D.). Through popes, bishops, and priests, Satan ruled Europe, and Biblical Christianity became illegal.

Throughout all of this, however, there remained individual groups of true Christians, such as the Waldensens and the Anabaptists who would not conform to the Roman system.

Answered already(Cont’d)

 

[Church_Militant]

The Papacy and Priesthood

Too bad that’s not true…
Bishop, Priest, and Deacon (Fathers*)
Celibacy and the Priesthood
Call No Man Father?

The Catholic church teaches that Peter was the first Pope and the earthly head of the church, but the Bible never says this once. … The Roman papacy and priesthood is just a huge fraud to keep members in bondage to a corrupt pagan church.

Complete hogwash, but what did you expect from a fundamentalist Baptist? He has to talk all this propaganda in order to make his religion seem valid.

Point out that Peter’s body is in Rome where history says he was crucified upside down.
Apostolic Succession (Fathers*)
The Authority of the Pope Part 1 (Fathers*)
The Authority of the Pope Part 2 (Fathers*)
Origins of Peter as Pope (Fathers*)
Papal Infallibility
Peter and the Papacy
Peter the Rock
Peter’s Primacy (Fathers*)
Peter’s Roman Residency (Fathers*)
Peter’s Successors (Fathers*)
Was Peter in Rome?

The Worship of Mary
Roman Catholics believe that Mary, the mother of Jesus, remained a virgin after the birth of Jesus and was sinless all of her life. She is worshiped in the Catholic church as the “Mother of God” and the “Queen of Heaven.”

The Bible teaches otherwise.

Too bad for him we don’t worship Mary, right?
Praying to the Saints
Saint Worship?
Immaculate Conception and Assumption
Mary: Ever Virgin (Fathers*)
Mary: Full of Grace (Fathers*)
Mary: Mother of God (Fathers*)
The Rosary
The Intercession of the Saints (Fathers*)

 

[Church_Militant]

:yawn:

**B]Purgatory **

Purgatory
The Roots of Purgatory (Fathers*)
Biblical and Jewish Traditional Beliefs About Purgatory

---

The Mass

**
The mass is unnecessary and unscriptural.**
Sacrifice of the Mass (Fathers*)
The Institution of the Mass

Image Worship

Iconoclasm: Or: Catholics Worship Graven Images NOT**

Salvation by Works

**

Are Catholics Born Again?

					[Assurance of Salvation?](http://www.catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp)
					[Grace: What It Is and What It Does](http://www.catholic.com/library/Grace_What_It_Is.asp)
					[How to Become a Catholic](http://www.catholic.com/library/How_to_Become_a_Catholic.asp)
					[Mortal Sin](http://www.catholic.com/library/Mortal_Sin.asp) (Fathers)
					[The Necessity of Baptism](http://www.catholic.com/library/Necessity_of_Baptism.asp) (Fathers*)
					[Reward and Merit](http://www.catholic.com/library/Reward_and_Merit.asp) (Fathers)

 

[Church_Militant]

Bury them in all that and see if they even bother to read it. (They won’t)

Then I suggest, unless you get a really great and humble response (you won’t) that you refuse to communicate with them any more.

Somebody’s agenda will never allow you a minute’s peace.

I finally had to pretty much tell an old buddy of mine not to write me if he was gonna send that trash. Even talking on the phone was near impossible because he’s so closed channel.

So…I hardly hear from him.

Oh yeah… feel free to include
My Testimony

 

[ricko]

These are all great answers to the problem. I’ll put in my two cents now. First ask him if he is a seeker of the truth. If he responds yes then you say; You have accused the Catholic Church of many things and you obviously spent a great deal of time in finding these things. Since you said you are a seeker of truth then you know that there are two sides to every story. What effort have you put forth to examine what the Catholic Church has to say about these things? Now you have put him in a spot. If he is interested in truth he will read the Catholic answers. Give him some help about where to find these answers. Let HIM do the research. If he refuses then do as you have been advised, shake the dust from your feet and leave.

 

[revelations]

Offer him thanks for his new and insightful commentaries and thank him for the new revelations he has given to you. Tell him you’ll pray about what he said.

Remember, Jesus our Lord specifically said that you have to born again of spirit AND WATER, so that “sprinkling” he mentioned was actually instituted by Christ. Anyone who preaches a different Gospel, especially concerning matters of salvation (baptism IS NECESSARY) is from the evil one. Pray for your friend.

In my experience, stay silent, don’t respond. Offer him your other cheek, be his punching bag while he explores his faith. There is nothing to defend, nothing is at risk. Show him the fruits of catholicism, that will be your defense.

-revelations

 

[jre1960]

I have read this same tract. Discovered it in the rest room of a Catholic hospital. Thought it was in bad taste then and still do now. I had these same thoughts before my conversion to the Catholic Church. They are perpetuated by a lack of discipline to do the research needed independent of outside influence. Many Protestant denominations and non-Denominational congregations do not believe Christ is the center of our Traditions and worship. The previous answers are all good and I would not begin to tell anyone where to start on this “work”, but one piece of advice I would have to make sure, without a doubt, the friend understands that Christ is our Source and Summit. Above all we would have that agreement with Protestants. Then answer each argument independently. If there is no response or a lack of trying to understand then, along with the others, I would shake the dust from my sandals.

 

[Church_Militant]

Oh… and BTW, what you have here is a fundamentalist non-Catholic bash on our most holy faith, not a “Born Again” one. We Catholics are Born Again according to the New Testament and anyone who alleges differently doesn’t know what they are talking about.

 

[Orionthehunter]

John, you have provoked the big gun here at CAF. Church Militant is very cogent and precise in his arguments. Now, you should exercise your specific knowledge of this person which gives you these options:

1. Just love him and show him that Christ is in you and ignore his arguments. Evangelize by the method of St. Francis: Spread the Gospel always, use words only if necessary.
2. Dribble out these arguments to him in an appeal to his reason (a precious gift from God) and only move on once you have exhausted discussion on the point.
3. Turn on all of the guns of Church Militant on him and tell him that you expect a response from him. Until then, you will be praying for him.

 

[Church_Militant]

John, you have provoked the big gun here at CAF. Church Militant

is very cogent and precise in his arguments. Now, you should exercise your specific knowledge of this person which gives you these options:

1. Just love him and show him that Christ is in you and ignore his arguments. Evangelize by the method of St. Francis: Spread the Gospel always, use words only if necessary.
2. Dribble out these arguments to him in an appeal to his reason (a precious gift from God) and only move on once you have exhausted discussion on the point.
3. Turn on all of the guns of Church Militant on him and tell him that you expect a response from him. Until then, you will be praying for him.Who? Me?

It’s just really hard to refute hard cold facts.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Hi all, I received this e-mail, which I think Ill have to break down to 2 posts due to length, from a friend who’s “Born Again” and thinks he has answers to bash my faith. Any help in answering this is much appreciated. Here;'s the e-mail (The 1st half):

The Plain Truth about[
the Roman Catholic Church (Link) (http://www.av1611.org/jmelton/Catholic.html)

The Roman Catholic Church claims to have started in Matthew 16:18 when Christ supposedly appointed Peter as the first Pope. However, the honest and objective student of the Scriptures and history soon discovers that the foundation of the Roman church is none other than the pagan mystery religion of ancient Babylon.

Which is fine, provided that there was a “pagan mystery religion of ancient Babylon”. Could you ask him:​

• what evidence he has that there was one
• in what way or ways it was “myster[ious]”
• what some of it ideas & practices were
• how it came to Rome
• how he knows it came to Rome
• how he knows the “departure” he refers to has anything to do with this supposed “PMR of ancient Babylon”
  These are straightfoward questions about allegations which can be tested by historical evidence; allegations which cannot be made unless they rest on historical evidence.

Can he - for instance - name any:

• Assyriologists
• professors of Ancient History
• of Classical History
• of Church History
  who would agree that “the foundation of the Roman church is none other than the pagan mystery religion of ancient Babylon” ? They needn’t be American. To make things as easy as possible, all I want is the name of one single Assyriologist who agrees with that idea: that’s not a lot to ask now, is it ?

The Bible is many things - it is no disrespect to it to point out that it is not a guide to Babylonian religion, & that most of what is known of Babylonian religion is based on the native texts (as it should be), & not on the Bible.

**While enduring the early persecutions of the Roman government (65-300 A.D.), most of professing Christianity went through a gradual departure from New Testament doctrine concerning church government, worship and practice. Local churches ceased to be autonomous by giving way to the control of “bishops” ruling over hierarchies. The simple form of worship from the heart was replaced with the rituals and splendor of paganism. Ministers became “priests,” and pagans became “Christians” by simply being sprinkled with water. This tolerance of an unregenerate membership only made things worse. SPRINKLED PAGANISM is about the best definition for Roman Catholicism. **

**The Roman Emperor Constantine established himself as the head of the church around 313 A.D., which made this new “Christianity” the official religion of the Roman Empire. The first actual Pope in Rome was probably Leo I (440-461 A.D.), although some claim that Gregory I was the first (590-604 A.D.). This ungodly system eventually ushered in the darkest period of history known to man, properly known as the “Dark Ages” (500-1500 A.D.). Through popes, bishops, and priests, Satan ruled Europe, and Biblical Christianity became illegal. **

(Edited to conform to CAF quote standard. Link to website added.)

 

[Orionthehunter]

Who? Me?

It’s just really hard to refute hard cold facts.

I just want you to know that there are times that I just search for your posts. You have taught me alot, you do it in a way that is a very precise, and with proper charity. Thank you.

 

[Church_Militant]

I just want you to know that there are times that I just search for your posts. You have taught me alot, you do it in a way that is a very precise, and with proper charity. Thank you.

I’m flattered, but really…I am an unworthy servant. I have only done what is expected of me. (Luke 17:10):blushing:

 

[john121212]

I actually used Church militants response to show my freind the response from this board…I will ask him to sign up here…I want him to see how him attacking me and my faith is the farthest thing from being a good Christian.
Everyones advise has been great, and I appreciate that. I intend to learn more from people like Church Militant, as I have a hunger to grow in my faith more. Everyone here has been extremely helpful.

 

[Church_Militant]

I’m glad all you guys think so highly of me and all but I have some very important counsel for you.

2nd Timothy 2:15 Carefully study to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

That is how I got what little I have shared and how I continue to learn more about our most holy faith.Don’t just study apologetics…study the Catholic faith from sources like The Catholic Home Study Service.

1st Peter 3:13 And who is he that can hurt you, if you be zealous of good? 14 But if also you suffer any thing for justice’ sake, blessed are ye. And be not afraid of their fear, and be not troubled. 15 But sanctify the Lord Christ in your hearts, being ready always to satisfy every one that asketh you a reason of that hope which is in you.

16 But with modesty and fear, having a good conscience: that whereas they speak evil of you, they may be ashamed who falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. 17 For it is better doing well (if such be the will of God) to suffer, than doing ill.

This is also key, and I know it can be hard when someone is coming off with some extreme propaganda or presents their case with offensive rhetoric or just dumps on you, but it’s something that we all have to remember. I pray for those who oppose our faith every day and that also is key.
The Militia Immaculata has a great version of the Miraculous Medal prayer that really just says it all.
**
Daily Miraculous Medal Prayer of St. Maximilian Kolbe**
O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have
recourse to thee, and for all those who do not have
recourse to thee, especially the enemies of the Church
and those recommended to thee.

Just remember, we never need to sink to the level of those who oppose us and it’s more important that they see Christ in our behavior than for us to win an argument. Any thing else just means that everybody involved loses.

Now… everybody quit talking about me unless you’re praying for me.

 

[john121212]

I feel frustrated and sickened. Here’s my “friends” response: "I know God by the Word which he gave us and we will be judged on. Not the Catholic church rules John. You love your tradition I think more than Jesus. He said follow me! Read your bible."

I gave him facts and scripture…and he tells me some rhetoric he;'s appearently trained to use. I told him his words in his e-mail there we’re quite judgemental, and thus not of Christ. I told him to step back and read what i gave him…

 

[utunumsint]

I feel frustrated and sickened. Here’s my “friends” response: "I know God by the Word which he gave us and we will be judged on. Not the Catholic church rules John. You love your tradition I think more than Jesus. He said follow me! Read your bible."

I gave him facts and scripture…and he tells me some rhetoric he;'s appearently trained to use. I told him his words in his e-mail there we’re quite judgemental, and thus not of Christ. I told him to step back and read what i gave him…

You’ve done well.

Don’t let the frustration get the better of you. Try to keep your peace.

In Christ,
Ut