Answer to this Question [Predestination]

[Flavius_Aetius]

Hello, I’ve had a discussion with a person I know from another website dealing with morality and what eventually went to Christianity. I’m a terrible apologist so I suggested that they come here for their questions which was flat out rejected, but I’m still curious so I’d like to quote what was written.

It started off just posting an article about child soldiers in africa

“In some 30 wars across the world, he notes, hundreds of thousands of child fighters—their ranks endlessly renewed by kidnapping or by scooping up kids orphaned by AIDS, famine or violent conflicts—have become “the ultimate, cheap, expendable, yet sophisticated human weapon.” Children are, in fact, horrifically perfect for the job. They’re small enough to transport easily in large numbers, yet big enough to handle modern lightweight arms, and heavy enough also to set off land mines so adults can safely follow. They have no real sense of fear and, when indoctrinated young enough, their capacity for loyalty and for barbarism exceeds that of adults. The girls—40 per cent of child soldiers—double as sex slaves and, in long-lasting wars, as mothers of the next generation of fighters.”

www2.macleans.ca/2010/11/08/why-children-are-good-soldiers/

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I find it hard to believe in a God that loves us.

Bolded part was what got me obviously

Me:

I fail to connect Humans using their free will to oppress children and do evil as equaling God doesn’t love us. Of course I’d like to leave it at that for I am not a good apologist for theism.

As for the situation at hand, yes this occurs at rates unbelievable in Africa. Especially where there are genocidal conflicts like Sudan; it’s a mess of a continent all around. I can only hope that in a few generations all this corruption and these atrocities can be contained and finally eliminated.

Bible:

1.) Everything happens for a reason.
2.) God loves all of us.
3.) If you believe in God, you won’t go to hell.

I guess I should clarify. I find it hard to believe in a Christian God. Although I’m fairly skeptical of any pre-packaged notions of supernatural beings in themselves.

If history is pre-determined, those children were forced to die. If God loves all of us, it makes little sense he would do this to us. And finally, if believing it God makes you not go to hell, then those children (who have no knowledge of God, and was never given any knowledge prior) who have killed slews of enemies, are, by no fault of their own (since they have been indoctrinated), definitely goig to hell.

Does this connect now?

And besides the point. I despise immorality, but I find that morality is hard to believe in when stuff like this happens, almost every day.

So what is a genuine response? All I could mention was that Catholics don’t believe in Predestination, but I don’t know why that is; considering if God is Omniscience then like mentioned in the quotes all the deaths and cruelty we do to one another would seem predetermined.

 

[cooterhein]

From an academic perspective, you’ll want to explain compatibilism, the difference between predestination and predeterminism, and the reason for saying the first two don’t lead to the last one. But that kind of thing is remarkably sterile in light of a discussion that demands an emotional connection.

If he’s non-religious, I’d recommend Dan Dennett for the things he’s written on compatibilism. H. G. Frankfurt is okay, too.

See if you can explore these things and start to feel your way around.

naturalism.org/fourviews.htm
naturalism.org/morse.htm
naturalism.org/retributivism.htm#Compatnochng
youtube.com/watch?v=Utai74HjPJE&feature=related
plato.stanford.edu/entries/compatibilism/

As a Catholic resource, I can recommend that you look at questions 22 and 23 of Summa Theologica.
newadvent.org/summa/1022.htm
newadvent.org/summa/1023.htm

 

[fhansen]

why

that is; considering if God is Omniscience then like mentioned in the quotes all the deaths and cruelty we do to one another would seem predetermined.
History isn’t pre-determined even if it is foreknown. Otherwise the concept of human free will is rendered absolutely absurd along with all moral responsibility, no matter how heinous the crime. And in Catholic teaching, a person who’s genuinely ignorant of God and His plan in no way is held responsible for his lack of faith.

 

[Flavius_Aetius]

I just got a few more responses on the other forum.

I cannot believe this is devolving into a topic about faith.

The offhand comment was a simulation of my feelings as to the absolute lack of morality in human beings.

THis is about children being mercilessly manipulated into war and sex slaves. If you want me to, I’ll remove the freaking comment.

I realize it may be offensive to certain individuals Castle, but you seem to be more interested my belief of God over the current topic.

Let’s just drop this.

I only wanted to show this to the website to see how completely amoral some people can be.

FYI, I was clarifying your first point. You said you failed to see how it made sense, hence, I gave a logical rationale as to why I believe it was right.

I’m being offensive? I stated that the article made it hard for me to feel that there was a God that loved us, that was it. There is a specific difference between my own belief and a general truth. I made no biased statements, I made no OFFENSIVE statements either. If you want proof that the BIBLE has pre-determinism written into it:

Job 27:14 (New International Version)
However many his children, their fate is the sword;
his offspring will never have enough to eat.

Job 27:13 (New International Version)
“Here is the fate God allots to the wicked,
the heritage a ruthless man receives from the Almighty:

Jeremiah 49:20
Therefore, hear what the LORD has planned against Edom, what he has purposed against those who live in Teman: The young of the flock will be dragged away; their pasture will be appalled at their fate.

Search it up yourself. I found it on Bible Gateway.

I never stated anything about Catholicism, but Christianity in general. So you assuming that I’m talking about your specific branch of Christianity is mistaken. My points are valid.

Conversely, you stating that my ideas of morality are mistaken is a biased statement.

You assuming that I believe Christianity is a hell-sending force is a biased statement.

You want to know why I don’t want go on Christian forums, because this happens.

Me being in an argument with any faith believer will lead to no results and cause grief because in the end, I am agnostic, and your members are Catholic.

If you have a problem with me, PM me about it and we can continue on from there.

I’ve given up talking to this person; there being uncharitable and rude to any point of view other than her own. I’m still curious to this forums opinion though on the quotes above, and if they hold any logical grounds.

 

[Apollos]

Bolded part was what got me obviously

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s all been hashed out before, and if high schools would do their job these posts would never happen.

Basically the argument runs, “Evil exists; therefore there is no God” (cf. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_Evil#Logical_problem_of_evil). But netizens these days can barely construct a syllogism, so arguing with them is a waste of electrons.

You might try a rhetorical trick. Point out that when bad things happen, we blame God; but when good things happen, we credit ourselves. *That *bespeaks moral bankruptcy more than child soldiers.

And by the way, if everything is predetermined, then the very conclusions you draw about God based on this or that concept of predetermination are also predetermined and are therefore of no significance whatsoever. That may be a little too clever for them, but at least it’s simple.

 

[kepha1]

Job 27:14 (New International Version)
However many his children, their fate is the sword;
his offspring will never have enough to eat.

Job 27:13 (New International Version)
“Here is the fate God allots to the wicked,
the heritage a ruthless man receives from the Almighty:

Jeremiah 49:20
Therefore, hear what the LORD has planned against Edom, what he has purposed against those who live in Teman: The young of the flock will be dragged away; their pasture will be appalled at their fate.

God is talking about the wicked, and the consequences of their wickedness results in their children becoming warriors, much like the story in the OP. God does not make the children of wicked people suffer any more than he makes wicked people.

Here is a good article that refutes the “God is a big meanie” argument:
socrates58.blogspot.com/2007/11/how-can-god-in-ot-order-killing-and.html

 

[Vince1022]

Hello, I’ve had a discussion with a person I know from another website dealing with morality and what eventually went to Christianity. I’m a terrible apologist so I suggested that they come here for their questions which was flat out rejected, but I’m still curious so I’d like to quote what was written.

It started off just posting an article about child soldiers in africa

Bolded part was what got me obviously

Me:

So what is a genuine response? All I could mention was that Catholics don’t believe in Predestination, but I don’t know why that is; considering if God is Omniscience then like mentioned in the quotes all the deaths and cruelty we do to one another would seem predetermined.

Free will. That’s why Catholics don’t believe in predestination.