Answer to; "Well it's not hurting anyone"?

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I have a non-catholic friend who often brings up arguments with me knowing that I am catholic. One topic that I stumble on finding the right words to answer my friend is in regards to certain sins that appear to have no “victim”. For example, my friend will often bring up sexual sins and say something like, “Well they are both consenting adults and they’re not hurting anyone, so why does it matter?”, or something similar.

I know it offends God as all sin does but how do I explain this to someone who doesn’t see this?
 
k5thbeatle said:
I have a non-catholic friend who often brings up arguments with me knowing that I am catholic. One topic that I stumble on finding the right words to answer my friend is in regards to certain sins that appear to have no “victim”. For example, my friend will often bring up sexual sins and say something like, “Well they are both consenting adults and they’re not hurting anyone, so why does it matter?”, or something similar.

I know it offends God as all sin does but how do I explain this to someone who doesn’t see this?
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If your friend is a non-Catholic but a Christian, it’s still fairly easy to convince him that sins affect everyone. There is no such thing as a “private” sin. There is what we call the “Communion of Saints”, which refers to the community of the faithful on Earth, those in Purgatory (Holy Souls), and those in Heaven (saints and angels). When you do an act of charity, in a metaphysical sense, it benefits everyone in the community. Vice versa, if you commit a wrong deed, in a metaphysical sense, it hurts everyone in the community. Whether or not the act is seen is not the matter. It still hurts everyone, as the biblical proverb goes: “Righteousness exalts a nation, but sin is a disgrace to any people” (Proverbs 13:4). This is seen elsewhere in the Bible: “Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed” (James 5:16). Heck, Islam says much the same thing: “We ordained for the Children of Isra`il that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole humanity: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the whole humanity” (Surah 5:32).

If your friend is a Christian, you need to ask him that if good deeds/bad deeds does not affect the community at large, how did Jesus’ blood atone for the sins of Humanity? Because there is the “Communion of Saints”, everything a person does affects everyone else - in ways one may not know immediately as people are not all-knowing (omniscient).
 
k5thbeatle said:
I have a non-catholic friend who often brings up arguments with me knowing that I am catholic. One topic that I stumble on finding the right words to answer my friend is in regards to certain sins that appear to have no “victim”. For example, my friend will often bring up sexual sins and say something like, “Well they are both consenting adults and they’re not hurting anyone, so why does it matter?”, or something similar.

I know it offends God as all sin does but how do I explain this to someone who doesn’t see this?
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Well, well, well, that would lead us a long way…
So, his theory is, as no one sees it or is hurt, everything is OK? You could find 1000 examples where to make things without anybody seeing or being hurt is NOT OK. Suicide sometimes does not hurt anybody, the fellow had no family. Sado-mazochism, well the sado, likes, the masochist likes, well, I would not say it is a healthy situation.

My wife wont know, your husband wont know, let’s have fun, we are not hurting anybody. I myself, wont do it (God help me in temptation!) because I know. I could not live with the situation where I KNEW that i had betrayed someone who loves me so much. I know SHE WOULD KNOW, I do not believe what some lips say, that there is no harm. When God’s laws are broken, people do not feel happy. Sincerely, I have many friends who live such lives and I do not see much happiness on their faces ! The remorse is the voice of God and comes when you break God’s laws. Remorse bites your conscience like a worm eating the wood from inside. Every policeman knows that the criminal returns to the local of the crime. Why but for remorse? So, their technique is put somebody there an wait. they know…

And once you are unfaithful you no more can say that you were faithful. Only if you are faithful you can experience the sensation of being faithful. If, as some say, to be unfaithful is a pleasure (short one I would say), they forget that to be faithful is a pleasure too. and lasts longer.

And there is the bomb-argument: because God does not want. Most people that talk that way, for god for them is god, the powerless policeman of the corner, the corrupt governor of the state. They have not got the faintes idea of the Poer of God and the Authority He has on People’s lifes. They obbey transitory laws of men with a rigor stupidifying but God’s laws? for them? are like small branches of bamboos that you can bend at your own pleasure. But Oh! they are so displeased you you break laws of society, of fashion, of talking, the maneurisms, the fashionable phobias, teh style of hair, oh! all are in! God’s laws? no!

Maybe it is our fault that we do not do the impossible to show the true face of God. I would rather say: MY fault. Mine, I can coorect, the other, no.
 
You are missing the point. the OP’s friend is challenging the idea that these ‘sins’ are bad in the first place. Two people having willing harmless fun does not on the face of it seem likely to offend the creator of the universe.
 
I’ve been faced with the same ‘argument’ as well. I answer that things matter because there is objective morality. The other person will probably not agree with that statement, but then I stress that all people have a sense of morality, believe that some things are just wrong. I argue that if we enter a discussion on morals we will surely find several things we all agree upon, whether we are religious people or not. So if a person believes that something is inherently right or wrong, there must be a standard for ‘measuring’ morality on a global level.

However, experience has taught me that people who refuse to admit that some things might be immoral because it simply doesn’t suit them to do so, will never be convinced. Human nature I guess. But the important thing is to make them think and reconsider their initial position.
 
k5thbeatle said:
I have a non-catholic friend who often brings up arguments with me knowing that I am catholic. One topic that I stumble on finding the right words to answer my friend is in regards to certain sins that appear to have no “victim”. For example, my friend will often bring up sexual sins and say something like, “Well they are both consenting adults and they’re not hurting anyone, so why does it matter?”, or something similar.

I know it offends God as all sin does but how do I explain this to someone who doesn’t see this?
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“It’s not hurting anyone” is a rationalisation of sin. If you are a Christian, then God the Holy Spirit is with you. Jesus is with you. When you take the Eucharist, Christ is literally in you. If you do something that seems harmless, you’re actually making Christ your victim by defiling yourself with someone else while Christ is in you and with you. Not only that, but God is omniscient, so to say that no one is watching is untrue. Sins that appear to be harmless offend God.
 
Two consenting adults having sex aren’t ‘hurting anybody?’

Hmmm. Ask the ‘consenting adult’ who gets ‘dumped’ for somebody newer and more exciting if the ‘sex that won’t hurt anybody’ is still a memory of pure joy. Ask that person if after experience after experience of ‘let’s have fun, no strings, we’re consenting adults’ and then being left again and again, “it was fun while it lasted, I told you no strings, I’m just not into you any more”. . .if they don’t ‘hurt’, if they are still even able to trust in themselves or others after so many bad experiences.

Ask the ‘consulting adult’ who does the dumping , “Hey, I said no strings, I want to be free to experience what I want” if the continued experience of getting his way, his desires, with no consequences, no thought for the hurt of the other person but only his own satisfaction, doesn’t wind up hurting him inside, turning him into a monster of selfishness and entitlement, out only for the brief sensation of ‘novelty’, needing more and more new ‘bodies’ to arouse his satiation of his empty lusts. . .isn’t HE hurt as well?

What of the families and friends who have to deal with the RESULTS of 'two consenting adults having fun?" . . .having to comfort the hurt ones, trying to reason with the ‘dumpers’, trying to get the one group to trust again and the other group to crack open the hard heart of selfishness. . .

Oh there is PLENTY of hurt going on out there. All society is hurt by the consequences of these little ‘consentual affairs’ as women become more objectified, the culture is hypersexualized, men become more selfish and brutish. . .
 
I think Bohm Bawerk has a good point with respect to the Communion of Saints. You may want to start there.

I’d also argue that the individuals engaging in sexually sinful acts are absolutely hurting someone: themselves. I don’t think that can be overstated, and it’s your duty and the duty of your friend, in light of loving others as yourself, to try and stop that from happening.

Of course, as with Bohm Bawerk’s point, whether or not your friend will listen or accept that will probably depend on whether or not he/she is Christian.

Good luck!
Anytime Evangelize

We cannot keep to ourselves the words of eternal life given to us in our encounter with Jesus Christ: they are meant for everyone, for every man and woman. … It is our responsibility to pass on what, by God’s grace, we ourselves have received."
  • Pope Benedict XVI
 
Thanks for the replies but I think maybe I clouded the actual question by using sexual sins as just an example. I didn’t want to turn this into a debate of what is or isn’t a sin as I believe his question is more fundamental and hence my question of how to answer him.

I’ll ask the same question but if instead of sexual sin (which was the only example I could think of at the time) let’s use as an example someone who goes home and curses and swears in their home when nobody is around. I know that is a sin but how do I explain this to my friend?
 
k5thbeatle said:
Thanks for the replies but I think maybe I clouded the actual question by using sexual sins as just an example. I didn’t want to turn this into a debate of what is or isn’t a sin as I believe his question is more fundamental and hence my question of how to answer him.

I’ll ask the same question but if instead of sexual sin (which was the only example I could think of at the time) let’s use as an example someone who goes home and curses and swears in their home when nobody is around. I know that is a sin but how do I explain this to my friend?
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Hmm … I’m not sure that makes a difference. It still holds true that such a person would be spiritually hurting their own self. And yes, as Christians who are called to love one another as ourselves, that matters.

If your friend saw someone about to jump off a cliff (dramatic example), he wouldn’t argue that it doesn’t hurt anyone else, so let him go ahead. No, he’d try and stop them and would be right in doing so. How much more so for spiritual matters?
Anytime Evangelize

We cannot keep to ourselves the words of eternal life given to us in our encounter with Jesus Christ: they are meant for everyone, for every man and woman. … It is our responsibility to pass on what, by God’s grace, we ourselves have received."
  • Pope Benedict XVI
 
History teaches that crimes of the heart are not victimless crimes. Oh, please. Does this person not read the classic poetry at all?

People use the “it doesn’t hurt anyone” excuse to lie to their friends and family, steal from their bosses, ignore signs at the park, carry grudges, transmit gossip, feed the swarming papparazzi that make famous people miserable, and any number of other selfish behaviors. The matter doesn’t deserve a lot of discussion, because the excuse is a cop-out.

As for consenting adults having the right to mutually expose themselves to harm if they feel like it, it falls under a category similar to seat belt and helmet laws: They don’t bear the harm alone. People who have been beaten up by their bad sexual choices are not particularly useful or fun to have around. Their self-centeredness does not affect them alone. When the house falls down, many other people experience the fall-out. All of their future lovers will bear the fall-out of their prior sexual scarring, too. Even from a secular sensibility, then, society also has some say in how much of that fall-out they care to take, because society is always made to bear some of the burden of the harm.

Now, if this person were to retort that laying a burden on a person where no burden is warranted causes harm of its own, I would agree wholeheartedly. Religious guilt and especially shame can be applied so as to do far more harm than good. As the Lord put it:

Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying, “The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice. They tie up heavy burdens [hard to carry] and lay them on people’s shoulders, but they will not lift a finger to move them." Matt. 23:1-4

So religious people have a duty to “do no harm” as well.
 
k5thbeatle said:
Thanks for the replies but I think maybe I clouded the actual question by using sexual sins as just an example. I didn’t want to turn this into a debate of what is or isn’t a sin as I believe his question is more fundamental and hence my question of how to answer him.

I’ll ask the same question but if instead of sexual sin (which was the only example I could think of at the time) let’s use as an example someone who goes home and curses and swears in their home when nobody is around. I know that is a sin but how do I explain this to my friend?
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Because what we do is who we are, and who we are becoming.

What kind of a person do you want to become? If you are normal, you want to become a good person - someone that other people like to be around. How we behave in private, and even the things we imagine and daydream about, have a profound effect on the kind of people we are becoming - even if no one else ever finds out.

You could use the example of physical development. What would be the difference between someone who eats chocolate cake every day in secret, and someone who exercises every day in secret?

Both of these actions are being done in secret, so, shouldn’t the end result also be a secret? If you think it through, though, you soon realize that after a period of, say, three months, you would certainly notice a difference - even if you had no idea what each of these people were doing in secret - you would notice a distinct difference between the person who was eating chocolate cake in secret every day, and the person who was exercising in secret every day. The result would be known to everyone, even if everyone didn’t know the cause.

It’s the same with our moral life. The things we do in secret affect our personalities, and the way we come across to others in our relationships. People might not know what it is exactly that is wrong with you, but they would certainly notice a difference in personality between you and someone who does good things in secret, rather than evil things.

If you swear in secret every day, this influences your thoughts and behaviour in ways that you might not be able to consciously control. You would seem “more angry” to other people, even if they couldn’t put their finger on why you come across that way.

Someone who engages in sexual sin in secret would still come across as “more sleazy,” even if no one could really say why.
 
This sort of question is covered in your typical Philosophy 201 class, how to decide if something is right or wrong, and, as usual, if you look for it, you will find a Catholic answer to the question (e.g. in an encyclical) better than what I could give you.

But in the mean time, here are two refutations that have worked well for me in everyday conversations where lengthy critiques won’t do:
  • I know a man who ruined his marriage by giving himself over to masturbation and pornography. I know you wanted to sidestep sexual sins, but your friend’s morality cannot explain why his solitary, victimless, and accessoryless sin ended up hurting his wife and their kids.
  • If you stick a knife into someone’s stomach, it could be a kitchen accident, it could be attempted murder, or it could be surgery. In any case it is painful, and in many cases it ends in the death of the victim. Your friend’s morality is unable to say which of these three cases is right or wrong, because for your friend, “hurting” someone without the other person’s “consent” is the one and only thing that makes an action wrong.
 
Why is offending God of no consequence to them? I think I’d start there, as it seems to indicate a distorted view of God and who we are in relation to him.
 
First, is there such a thing as right and wrong? And if so, what is it based on?

On another forum, I read the following: “We no longer want to feel guilty or ashamed or sinful ever again.” And I also read: “Consent is my favorite word.”

It began in the late 1960s with, “Leave us alone! We’re responsible adults. We’ll do what we want!” And at least I assumed, that meant they would deal with any negative consequences as well.

As Christians, we were never taught to violate the privacy of someone’s home or to look through their windows to perhaps find them engaging in acts, sexual or otherwise, that were wrong, sinful, disgraceful or harmful. However, as the years passed, all, or most of it, is on TV or in the movies.

All those private behaviors were made public and to what end? So that people could pretend not to know that these acts are shameful or dysfunctional or sinful? What is the common character template on TV today? The Dysfunctionals. Graphic examples of people behaving badly being offered as entertainment. Who cares what goes on behind closed doors? We didn’t - at least not until it was pushed into our faces by TV and the movies.

Sure, people had their little secrets in the past but not anymore. Is anything scandalous anymore? Is any behavior outside of rape or murder wrong anymore?

Human dignity means a common community standard where both men and women are treated with respect. It also means that self-control needs to come into play and that means shared standards of behavior. Just because you can do something does not mean you should do it.

Hope this helps,
Ed
 
You could go the secular way, more and more studies are starting to come out that fornication is not a good thing. That the more sexual partners you have before marriage, the risk of divorce when marriage does take place increases quite significantly. The risk of STDs, unplanned preganancy and of course, as people have mentioned heart ache.

Fornication, and other pelvic sins, they harm the people consenting. They are dehumanising each other and dehumanising themselves, turning each other into objects of lust.

Everyone I know, EVERYONE, who has fornicated, [who has talked to me about it - and for some Hoover reason everyone seems to want to tell me about their sexual shenanigans -_-’ ] have a lot of heart ache over at least one or two of their partners. I know a girl who told me she crossed the road to avoid running into the guy she gave her virginity to. And despite that shame and heart ache, she continued to have random sexual encounters.

Fornication is really short sighted, people are thinking in the here and now. They’re not thinking of their future spouse and children. WHat if they contract an incruable STD? WHat if theyr’e rendered sterile either by STD or a botched abortion? They will continue the memories of their many lovers, and their spouse may spend many moments wondering “am I being compared to x, y, z, am I better than them, were they better than me?”

How can such sin not harm people? People are silly and naive to think such actions do not have serious consquences for themselves and others.
 
vera_dicere said:
You could go the secular way, more and more studies are starting to come out that fornication is not a good thing. That the more sexual partners you have before marriage, the risk of divorce when marriage does take place increases quite significantly. The risk of STDs, unplanned preganancy and of course, as people have mentioned heart ache.

Fornication, and other pelvic sins, they harm the people consenting. They are dehumanising each other and dehumanising themselves, turning each other into objects of lust.

Everyone I know, EVERYONE, who has fornicated, [who has talked to me about it - and for some Hoover reason everyone seems to want to tell me about their sexual shenanigans -_-’ ] have a lot of heart ache over at least one or two of their partners. I know a girl who told me she crossed the road to avoid running into the guy she gave her virginity to. And despite that shame and heart ache, she continued to have random sexual encounters.

Fornication is really short sighted, people are thinking in the here and now. They’re not thinking of their future spouse and children. WHat if they contract an incruable STD? WHat if theyr’e rendered sterile either by STD or a botched abortion? They will continue the memories of their many lovers, and their spouse may spend many moments wondering “am I being compared to x, y, z, am I better than them, were they better than me?”

How can such sin not harm people? People are silly and naive to think such actions do not have serious consquences for themselves and others.
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I like your answers but please allow me to vocalize another oppsing view. Often when I bring up such points as yours I get an answer something along the following lines; “Well those may be problems for some people and I agree it’s wrong for me but how does what anyone else does in their own (bed)rooms affect me”? …or something very similar in response?
 
k5thbeatle said:
I like your answers but please allow me to vocalize another oppsing view. Often when I bring up such points as yours I get an answer something along the following lines; “Well those may be problems for some people and I agree it’s wrong for me but how does what anyone else does in their own (bed)rooms affect me”? …or something very similar in response?
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The answer to your question is very simple…

Stop thinking about how it affects you and start thinking about how it affects your society. If you can see that your society is being harmed, then very obviously, you are being affected.

Here’s a little hypothetical for you -

Say one man goes home after work each night and gets blind drunk. Is it affecting you?
Say 50 men go home and get drunk every night after work. Is it affecting you?
Say 1000 men go home each night and get blind drunk. Does it affect you?
Say half the population went home and got blind drunk every night. Would it affect you?

The question becomes, when does private behaviour start to affect the public interest? Once it does, it is affecting you.
 
Once is done privately by you, it is affecting you and affecting you it is affecting the whole world.

A friend of mine had a beautiful lady inviting him to sleep with her. Both were married. My friend said no. And she said: “No one will know”. And he said : “We will know forever”. And so he lost a beautiful friendship.

We have always our conscience and God watching us.
 
k5thbeatle said:
I have a non-catholic friend who often brings up arguments with me knowing that I am catholic. One topic that I stumble on finding the right words to answer my friend is in regards to certain sins that appear to have no “victim”. For example, my friend will often bring up sexual sins and say something like, “Well they are both consenting adults and they’re not hurting anyone, so why does it matter?”, or something similar.

I know it offends God as all sin does but how do I explain this to someone who doesn’t see this?
Click to expand...
Sin hurts the sinner. That’s the very definition of sin: it is an affront to his own nature and being.
 
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