Answering a former Priest

[ziapueblo]

Greetings,

I have a co-worker who is a former Catholic who gave my email to a friend of his. This friend is a former Priest, a Dominican I believe, and it seems that he is trying to pull the faithful out of the Church by twisting what the Catholic Church teaches. His email is long and I would like to reply but there is so much information that I need help with.

I would like to reply to this individuals email in a charitable way. I will copy small sections so that others can read and help me answer him. Is it even worth responding to him? I feel like I should

Here is the first portion I would like to look at. Any help would be appreciated.

First of all I deal with what is missing. Omitted is the supreme and final authority of faith and life in Christ Jesus alone. This has been replaced by a faith and life of confidence in the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church believes that she herself is the infallible touchstone of truth. The combination of her tradition and her interpretation of Scripture is what constitutes the binding rule of faith and practice for Catholics. So it is that the Catholic Church attempts to replace the glorious truths of God’s revelation. She has come to see herself – rather than God - as the pivotal factor in salvation. Her foundational premise is that all the benefits of Christ’s redemption come through the Church, that is, herself alone. It follows logically, then, that she focuses a person’s faith on the Church herself. Thus she states,

“Believing’ is an ecclesial act. The Church’s faith precedes, engenders, supports and nourishes our faith. The Church is the mother of all believers. ‘No one can have God as Father who does not have the Church as Mother.’” Catechism of the Catholic Church Para . 181

And,

“It is in the Church that ‘the fullness of the means of salvation’ has been deposited. It is in her that ‘by the grace of God we acquire holiness.’” Catechism, Para . 824

Moreover, she states,

“There is no one, however wicked and guilty, who may not confidently hope for forgiveness, provided his repentance is honest.” Catechism, Para . 982

These teachings are typical of what the Catholic Church inculcates in her people so that, rather than learning to trust in God, as the Scriptures everywhere encourage, they learn to trust in her. For most of my own life, it was what the Catholic Church believed that I, in turn, believed.

Thanks and God bless,
ZP

 

[Corki]

I am surprized that this comes from a former priest. When the Catechism speaks of “the Church” it means the whole Church - militant, suffering and triumphant. This former priest is twisting the words of the CCC to make it look like the catechism is talking about the Magesterium and not the whole Church. He should know better and his “proofs” lose thier impact when read in this light.

In my opininion, a former priest who is actively trying to pull Catholics aways from thier faith is particularly dangerous and needs an expert response. My recommendation would be to email or call CA and see if one of the staff apologists would help you with a thorough reply to this person.

Phone
Main Switchboard
619-387-7200
Monday–Friday, 9 AM–5 PM, Pacific

Correspondence
Catholic Answers
2020 Gillespie Way
El Cajon, CA 92020

Fax
619-387-0042
available 24 hours a day
E-mail
catholic.com/home/contact_form.asp

Good luck.

 

[Kaste]

Now just a moment here. Catholics need to really understand where this guy is coming from, and not just immediately set out to “correct” people like him. He’s right about a lot of things.

Change is needed in the Catholic Church. We can bring it about with God’s help in Vatican III.

Many catholics here need to stop with the knee jerk defensiveness against those who express problems with Rome.

Listen to what folks like this are saying. Imbibe it. Then, if you truly want to rise above ‘uncharitable’ [the new buzz word with Catholics, along with ‘wounded’] back-n-forth, see where the Holy Spirit leads before giving a response. It may be best to just take a deep breath and admit the guy has a point.

K

 

[Lancer]

I agree with the other posting…this guy is simply distorting what he wants. Send him to CA.

Also, my first thought is…how do you know he is a former Catholic priest. I would ask (almost demand) for some proof…when was he ordained?..by who?..Order?..what was his ministry?..see some paperwork with this proof!

Your co-worker…is also a former Catholic (how much do you know and trust about him…what is this co-worker’s relationship with this former priest?)…this whole process of passing your email to him…and he goes into his email evangelization soap box…smells like a hoax or a setup to give some type of “pseudo” credibility to some one who is simply against the Catholic Church.

I may be wrong…but it does not fit the pattern that I know of with former Catholic priests (I know and have met several)…who may have left the Chruch over its teachings (often celibacy vs marriage)…but they don’t usually proselytize “in the blind”…they will discuss their reasons on a person-to-person basis…but usually not in an aggressive or offensive way (they are filled with charity and respect that many Catholics disagree with them and they would not want to do violence to their conscience as faithful Catholics)…and …most importantly (this is the truth teller to me about a person being a former priest)…they feel a real…and I do mean real…danger for their own soul…in trying to lead someone away from the Chruch…just because they left…no matter how justified they feel about their own personal reasons/decision to leave (another aspect of this is that you never hear of a former priest violating the seal of the Sacrament of Penance…they know the danger to their own soul in doing so!).

The only exception that I have seen…is former priests who have left the Catholic Church becasue of its teachings on sexual morality…the homosexual condition and the gay lifestyle to be specific…many of them often get into the gay movement/lifestyle/political agenda fight…and they have to yell at and try to beat up the Church and any/all of its faithful members…to justify their actions!

Simply my 2 cents…for your consideration.
Pax Christi

 

[Catholic_Dude]

First of all I deal with what is missing. Omitted is the supreme and final authority of faith and life in Christ Jesus alone. This has been replaced by a faith and life of confidence in the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church believes that she herself is the infallible touchstone of truth. The combination of her tradition and her interpretation of Scripture is what constitutes the binding rule of faith and practice for Catholics. So it is that the Catholic Church attempts to replace the glorious truths of God’s revelation. She has come to see herself – rather than God - as the pivotal factor in salvation. Her foundational premise is that all the benefits of Christ’s redemption come through the Church, that is, herself alone. It follows logically, then, that she focuses a person’s faith on the Church herself.

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.
…
29After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church—30for we are members of his body.
There is no divorcing Christ from HIS BODY - the Church - that’s heresy! Salvation can be no other way than through Christ’s Body!

Thus she states,

“Believing’ is an ecclesial act. The Church’s faith precedes, engenders, supports and nourishes our faith. The Church is the mother of all believers. ‘No one can have God as Father who does not have the Church as Mother.’” Catechism of the Catholic Church Para . 181

And,
“It is in the Church that ‘the fullness of the means of salvation’ has been deposited. It is in her that ‘by the grace of God we acquire holiness.’” Catechism, Para . 824

see above

Moreover, she states,
“There is no one, however wicked and guilty, who may not confidently hope for forgiveness, provided his repentance is honest.” Catechism, Para . 982

I don’t know anyone who denies this, Protestant or Catholic.

These teachings are typical of what the Catholic Church inculcates in her people so that, rather than learning to trust in God, as the Scriptures everywhere encourage, they learn to trust in her. For most of my own life, it was what the Catholic Church believed that I, in turn, believed.

Sadly, this priest seems to never have read the Bible, as these comments and thinking flatly contradict it.

 

[CentralFLJames]

alleged ex-priest:

First of all I deal with what is missing. Omitted is the supreme and final authority of faith and life in Christ Jesus alone. This has been replaced by a faith and life of confidence in the Catholic Church.

It sure seems to me that this unnamed person is trying to act like HE is trying to individually set himself up as the supreme and final authority. If you read between the lines he is just parroting Luther’s old sola fide (by faith alone) teaching. This looks like a not-so-clever Protestant attack using a Catholic avatar as a front.

…is the supreme and final authority of faith and life in Christ Jesus alone

See it? By Faith Alone. This was condemned at Trent and the priest would have known that well in advance of being ordained in the seminary.
alleged ex-priest:

The Catholic Church believes that she herself is the infallible touchstone of truth. The combination of her tradition and her interpretation of Scripture is what constitutes the binding rule of faith and practice for Catholics. So it is that the Catholic Church attempts to replace the glorious truths of God’s revelation. She has come to see herself – rather than God - as the pivotal factor in salvation. Her foundational premise is that all the benefits of Christ’s redemption come through the Church, that is, herself alone. It follows logically, then, that she focuses a person’s faith on the Church herself. Thus she states,

“Believing’ is an ecclesial act. The Church’s faith precedes, engenders, supports and nourishes our faith. The Church is the mother of all believers. ‘No one can have God as Father who does not have the Church as Mother.’” Catechism of the Catholic Church Para . 181

This is just a rant. There is noting new here. We Catholics have always held or defined that only the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth and is infallable in its official proclamations that come to us from the Deposit of Faith as illumined by the Holy Spirit.

But the falsehood is in his unwarranted subjective opinion that the church wants its members to worship it rather than God. But where is the evidence of this? There is no secret mass where Catholics come together to worship “the Church”. All worship is to God and the liturgy only asks God to not be hard in judging us by our sins but by our faith? How is asking God to forgive us and accept us construed as self worship???
Ask the man to show evidence in the official prayers and liturgy of the Catholic Church where the Church ever puts itself up for worship.

The other charge about being the Church being the “pivotal factor in salvation” etc. is also just a nonsensical rant. The Church certainly sees itself as a cooperative instrument of God in effecting salvation (often in the metaphor of an Arc) but it is always in the form of a partnership between God in heaven and His Church on earth (with Christ at its head). We might want to ask the person if he objects to the fact that Mary was a pivotal point in saying “let it be done to me according to your word”. This man clearly is in need of a mother.
alleged ex-priest:

“It is in the Church that ‘the fullness of the means of salvation’ has been deposited. It is in her that ‘by the grace of God we acquire holiness.’” Catechism, Para . 824

Moreover, she states,

“There is no one, however wicked and guilty, who may not confidently hope for forgiveness, provided his repentance is honest.” Catechism, Para . 982

Catechism 824 is asserting nothing more than the INSTRUMENTALITY of the Church as the MEANS to gain salvation. In the hands of Moses or Arron the staff was that same instrument. All grace comes from God but He directs it through this instrumentality of His earthly representative.

I don’t frankly understand his objection to Catechism 982 . It is unassailable that scripture says we must repent to be saved. It must be more of a very fundamentalist sola fide bias. He just does not accept that it takes much more than just saying “I believe” and then go right on sinning and not changing one’s life (more sola fide nonsense). But this has no specific bearing on the Catholic Church since even Calvinists believe this.
alleged ex-priest:

These teachings are typical of what the Catholic Church inculcates in her people so that, rather than learning to trust in God, as the Scriptures everywhere encourage, they learn to trust in her. For most of my own life, it was what the Catholic Church believed that I, in turn, believed.

This is a false assertion. Catholics do trust in God and trust in the instrument that He gave us in the Church in the same way Noah trusted in God and trusted that if entered the Arc he would escape the deluge. Trusting in God but then being suspicious of His given instrument (the Church) is to miss the boat and be left alone to flounder in a frothy sea of suspicion and scream against the wind that “somethings fishy”.

Don’t take the bait on this one - this is a dyed in the wool Protestant just parroting the party line through an false avatar.

James

 

[Garyjohn2]

These are heavy accusations, and sad coming from a former priest.

I’m no theologian, and I can’t quote extensively from authoritative sources, but I know that the church is the institution of Jesus Christ, which He gave to us. Having faith in Him is having faith in His church, and vice versa. Believing in an immaterial, invisible thing --like God’s salvation-- requires that we believe in the institution that was given to us to obtain that salvation.

Some people think better using analogies. I know I do. For example, if you believe in an immaterial “idea”, for example…education. You would also have to trust in the vehicle that will grant you that education…the school. Sure, it may be possible to self-educate, but it will be very difficult to acheive a true education without the institution that was established and exists to give you that education. Also, you won’t get a degree, and will have a hard time finding a job after you are “educated.”

Likewise, if we desire salvation, we should trust in the established instution that was given to us to obtain that gift. The church itself is a gift. Salvation may be available without it, but you’re not going to get your diploma (the ticket to enter the pearly gates) and it’s going to be hard to land a job (eternal giving of glory and praise to God in the afterlife).

Maybe that’s a silly example, but I’m doing my best to expain it as I understand it…to give you thoughts and ammunition for your response.

Likewise, if you are to build a house that you will trust to protect your family from the elements…how can you do so unless you also trust the tools you use to build that house? Wouldn’t you also have to trust the hardware store that gave you those tools? The Church is the institution that gives us the ways and means to salvation. It is the wood and nails that we use to build the Kingdom of God. We should trust the tools that God has given us, and have faith in them as we have faith in God Himself.

The church, as a body of people, is not perfect. We don’t worship it like God, and we don’t pretend that it is God (as he seems to be alluding to). However, its the best we have here on earth, and it is beautiful. It is a precious gift. We must have faith in the gifts God has given us. The Church gives us the ways and means to please God. It keeps us all on the same page in terms of worship. It is a structure and a support when all other structures and supports of civilization fail. It is a binding element of God’s people, and without it…we ourselves would surely fail. Maybe we wouldn’t fail right away, but without the light of the Church to guide us, in the long term, over generations, we would surely fail (if God’s plan were capable of failing).

Anyways, what I’m trying to say is, the Church is a manifestation of God’s light on earth. We have faith in God, but we cannot see his face. Let us have faith in God’s light that we CAN see, participate in, and become a part of!

I hope this helps, and makes sense. Pray before you respond, whatever you choose. Coming from a former priest, he is well learned and well armed to have these kinds of discussions. It seems pretty serious. I hope this person does not mislead anyone with his beliefs. I will pray for him too. Good luck!

 

[MarcoPolo]

Change is needed in the Catholic Church.

One of those things is doing a better job teaching priests what Catholicism actually teaches.

 

[CentralFLJames]

One of those things is doing a better job teaching priests what Catholicism actually teaches.

I’d like to know if the seminaries curriculum includes at least a low level apologetics course to prepare them for the polemics and classical attacks that anti-catholics use in trying to pull Catholic laiety out of The Church. I sometimes get the impression that our priests are too trusting, too naive and not prepared to deal with challenges to their teaching authority. In the old days a Catholic priest could count on his flock to accept his teaching authority and not be challenged. But these days the Mega Churches and Bible-Churches are specifically targeting poorly formed Catholics as a source for new recruits and preaching revenue. There are a LOT of polemics in the corpus of the protestants who are in relationships with Catholics (work and play) to get them to start doubting their priests teachings and weaken their faith. We need to get our priests to be razor sharp in being able to cut through the hyperbole that is being touted as Christian and undermining the Catholic teachings.

Before a large investment is made on a seminary student we should by the 2nd or 3rd year put them up in an intensive apologetics lab/symposium before an expert panel of Catholic apologists to mock-attack them using all the real Protestant polemics and points of arguments to test their faith and their resolve. Maybe even bring in real Protestant apologists too. This would be like getting “board certified”. This should be part of spiritual discernment. If they start showing liberalism and Protestant leanings - get them out fast.

James

 

[ziapueblo]

Thanks for the reply’s. All the posts are very helpful.

God bless,
ZP

 

[brierpatch1974]

Anyone else notice that the former priest is referred to as a she? The priest is a friend of a co-worker. Just asking if this is a typo or not. I am not catholic but I didn’t think a woman could be a priest int he Church? Not trying to pick a fight just trying to clarify. I get confused easily so please forgive me while I am still learning.

 

[brierpatch1974]

I am sorry, I completly misread that. Told you guys I get confused easy lol

 

[ziapueblo]

Hello all,

After some investigation I found out that this individual runs a website that seems to be anti-Catholic/Eastern Orthodox. I’m not saying that because someone disagrees with the Catholic Church is anti-Catholic, but he definitely misrepresents it. Not sure if I’m going to reply or not anymore after checking out the site.

I would post the individuals name and website, but I’m not sure if that is proper conduct on these forums. If one is not strong in their faith, a place like that could be a trap. At the same time, it seems that if one does have a good understanding of Catholic teaching, looking at a site like that would be helpful in knowing what others write/say about the Church.

God bless,
ZP

 

[MarcoPolo]

I’d like to know if the seminaries curriculum includes at least a low level apologetics course to prepare them for the polemics and classical attacks that anti-catholics use in trying to pull Catholic laiety out of The Church. I sometimes get the impression that our priests are too trusting, too naive and not prepared to deal with challenges to their teaching authority. In the old days a Catholic priest could count on his flock to accept his teaching authority and not be challenged. But these days the Mega Churches and Bible-Churches are specifically targeting poorly formed Catholics as a source for new recruits and preaching revenue. There are a LOT of polemics in the corpus of the protestants who are in relationships with Catholics (work and play) to get them to start doubting their priests teachings and weaken their faith. We need to get our priests to be razor sharp in being able to cut through the hyperbole that is being touted as Christian and undermining the Catholic teachings.

Before a large investment is made on a seminary student we should by the 2nd or 3rd year put them up in an intensive apologetics lab/symposium before an expert panel of Catholic apologists to mock-attack them using all the real Protestant polemics and points of arguments to test their faith and their resolve. Maybe even bring in real Protestant apologists too. This would be like getting “board certified”. This should be part of spiritual discernment. If they start showing liberalism and Protestant leanings - get them out fast.

James

Don’t get me wrong, I think we’re headed in a better direction in recent years. Pope Benedict has made some strong statements about cleaning up seminaries, including cleaning up any homosexual culture that may have in the past been tolerated. Even lay apostolates like this one started by Karl Keating have helped a lot.

This priest, if he really was a priest, apparently left because he decided sola scriptura was the truth, which is a grand irony since he scrutinized the Catholic Church for teaching things he viewed as “unbiblical.”

 

[Ignatius]

I have a co-worker who is a former Catholic who gave my email to a friend of his. This friend is a former Priest, a Dominican I believe, and it seems that he is trying to pull the faithful out of the Church by twisting what the

I am always very sceptically of such claims. Don’t gullibly accept these claims which are often a ruse by protestants to give them some credibility.
I would ask for verifiable evidence that this guy was a Catholic: Where did he receive the sacraments of initiation (and don’t tell him what they are, if he was Catholic he should know).
Also, ask the same about the supposed priest as well as where he received orders and who was the ordinary at the time. Again, don’t explain this, he should know.

If they can’t answer these I would tell them that I won’t believe them until they provide this information and I can verify it.

 

[Third_Day]

I’d like to know if the seminaries curriculum includes at least a low level apologetics course to prepare them for the polemics and classical attacks that anti-catholics use in trying to pull Catholic laiety out of The Church…

Before a large investment is made on a seminary student we should by the 2nd or 3rd year put them up in an intensive apologetics lab/symposium before an expert panel of Catholic apologists to mock-attack them using all the real Protestant polemics and points of arguments to test their faith and their resolve. Maybe even bring in real Protestant apologists too. This would be like getting “board certified”. This should be part of spiritual discernment. If they start showing liberalism and Protestant leanings - get them out fast.

James

Agree 100%. Priests can easliy get tripped up in an RCIA class by a question that an amateur apologist can answer. Apologetics should be required of all seminarians and current priests should be required to have at least basic apologetics especially if they teach RCIA.

 

[blitzfighter2]

the former priest has his head in the right place cause i cant find alot of the bible references i have been told about in bible like where in the bible it says mary should be treated as a deity

 

[Cattitude]

the former priest has his head in the right place cause i cant find alot of the bible references i have been told about in bible like where in the bible it says mary should be treated as a deity

The Catholic Church does not teach, nor does it claim that scripture states, that Mary should be treated as a deity. Maybe you should ask those who told you this what those references are.

 

[juliamajor]

the former priest has his head in the right place(probably someplace where the sun don’t shine) cause i cant find alot of the bible references i have been told (You have been told? by who?anecdotal evidence is no evidence at all)about in bible like where in the bible it says mary should be treated as a deity

(Mary is no deity and you should not assume anything of which you have no knowledge of)
Before accepting every piece of tripe out here look for yourself.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Now just a moment here. Catholics need to really understand where this guy is coming from, and not just immediately set out to “correct” people like him. He’s right about a lot of things.

Change is needed in the Catholic Church. We can bring it about with God’s help in Vatican III.

Many catholics here need to stop with the knee jerk defensiveness against those who express problems with Rome.

Listen to what folks like this are saying. Imbibe it. Then, if you truly want to rise above ‘uncharitable’ [the new buzz word with Catholics, along with ‘wounded’] back-n-forth, see where the Holy Spirit leads before giving a response. It may be best to just take a deep breath and admit the guy has a point.

K

this guy gotta a point and so did many heretics of the pass and of today. who do you follow?