Answering an Atheist (2 points I want help with)

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the very existence of marriage is a restriction on human sexual activity and so far as I know there has never been a human culture on this earth in which marriage did not exist.
That’s a restriction on the married couple and only after they have been married. I am unaware of any society that didn’t have extra marital sex. Or maybe that should be extra-marital.
But you believe you should be that planner while I believe God is. Is that not how this boils down?
No. I believe that WE should be the ones to decide. Through the gathering of evidence and reasonable arguments. Does that mean we will reach consensus? Possibly. Does that mean we will always we right? Generally yes. But not always.

But we reach a position by mutual agreement. I enter the discussion with promise that I will change my mind if you have the better argument. That actually might not happen because, like most people, I can be unreasonable and biased. But I make the promise in good faith nevertheless.

Let’s take the example of the two couple in the earlier post. Surely any reasonable person would say that there is no difference between them. The fact that one couple has sex without having signed some paperwork many years previously has obviously done no harm. But if you pick a position and are not prepared to listen to reasonable arguments, if you fail to promise to change your mind, then you end up having to support the unsupportable. From then on in, any comments you make in your defence are irrelevant. All reasonable people have stopped listening.

If, however, one was to say that, yes, in that particular case, no harm occurred, but in many other examples it obviously has, then the discussion can continue.
 
It seems you are being unnecessarily pedantic here…the original analogy appeared sufficient for the purpose for which it was offered…
No, it was not sufficient. To make a definitive assessment based upon flimsy information is unacceptable.
No physical harm might come of it if it is an hour before the ceremony…other than to demonstrate unequivocally one’s lack of restraint…for if one cannot maintain control of one’s breeding function for a simple hour might not such a thing be suggestive of a likely lack of restraint in other areas?

Alternately, if one is sufficiently comfortable with pre-hour, pre-ceremony, action, why not two hours? Or five? Or ten? Further, why not a week prior? Or a month? Or a year?

Essentially, why begin the race at the starting line when you might declare to have begun on the other side of the finish line?
The assumption was that unmarried sex is harmful and married sex is not. To point out a one hour interval simply illuminates the irrationality of this assumption. Not to mention that there is no evidence of any kind of “harm”. Why should one exercise “restraint” when there is no need for it?
The objection to pre-marital sex is essentially that it seemingly shows an errant disregard for the potential welfare of one’s offspring inasmuch as such action might lead to accidental life…and accidental life might lead to further accidental decisions, which might have other negative impacts on the best potential outcome for one’s child.
Why do you wish to bring up an offspring? There are sufficient ways and means to avoid procreation. And yes, they are one hundred percent effective. No need to go into the details.
Surely no sane person might compare his/her spouse to being equal in value to a set of footwear…should one truly “shop” for one’s spouse by trying different “knobs” with different “holes” to see if things fit…?
The point was that to make even such an INSIGNIFICANT decision as buying a pair of shoes requires a rational person to investigate ALL the relevant circumstances. Of course the analogy is imprecise, since the process of “trying on” is contingent upon both parties wishing to participate in the process, unlike the buyer and the shoe. I remember to have seen this analogy a long time ago. It was highly amusing to see the uproar it generated.
It is doubtful that Onan was struck down for this crime, but rather for his refusal to grant a son to his brother’s wife as it would interfere with the potential inheritance of his own sons…assuming it was God who might have struck him down in the first place.
The point was that God can show his “displeasure” if someone’s behavior is “offending” his sensibilities. Since there are no signs of this displeasure, the safe bet is that there is no “displeasure”. The fact that some people assert otherwise is of no consequence.
 
No, it was not sufficient. To make a definitive assessment based upon flimsy information is unacceptable.

The assumption was that unmarried sex is harmful and married sex is not. To point out a one hour interval simply illuminates the irrationality of this assumption. Not to mention that there is no evidence of any kind of “harm”. Why should one exercise “restraint” when there is no need for it?

Why do you wish to bring up an offspring? There are sufficient ways and means to avoid procreation. And yes, they are one hundred percent effective. No need to go into the details.

The point was that to make even such an INSIGNIFICANT decision as buying a pair of shoes requires a rational person to investigate ALL the relevant circumstances. Of course the analogy is imprecise, since the process of “trying on” is contingent upon both parties wishing to participate in the process, unlike the buyer and the shoe. I remember to have seen this analogy a long time ago. It was highly amusing to see the uproar it generated.

The point was that God can show his “displeasure” if someone’s behavior is “offending” his sensibilities. Since there are no signs of this displeasure, the safe bet is that there is no “displeasure”. The fact that some people assert otherwise is of no consequence.
Your position is understood…and having stated my own in the previous post, there seems little purpose in attempting a rephrasing of same…carry on as you may see fit…but your sons may not court my daughters…😉
 
Your position is understood…and having stated my own in the previous post, there seems little purpose in attempting a rephrasing of same…carry on as you may see fit…but your sons may not court my daughters…😉
Rephrasing would be useless. Giving explanations would be useful and welcome. Thank you for your reply, even it did not help.
 
Rephrasing would be useless. Giving explanations would be useful and welcome. Thank you for your reply, even it did not help.
I do not believe you have an immortal soul so I have no vested interest in changing your mind. You have made a reasonable case and I feel I have done the same. I have accepted that our opinions diverge on this single topic, while we do agree on others…but if you are truly interested in discussing this further out of a sake of interest I would be equally willing…I do enjoy a good argument so long as it is friendly…

But your sons are still barred from dating my daughters… 😉
 
I do not believe you have an immortal soul so I have no vested interest in changing your mind. You have made a reasonable case and I feel I have done the same. I have accepted that our opinions diverge on this single topic, while we do agree on others…but if you are truly interested in discussing this further out of a sake of interest I would be equally willing…I do enjoy a good argument so long as it is friendly…
Sure. If you could elaborate on the “harm” of unmarried sex which is absent in the case of marriage. Friendliness is a given.
But your sons are still barred from dating my daughters… 😉
Well, my sons (if I had any) would have total respect for the wishes of your daughters (if you have any). The furthest thing they would contemplate is to rape your daughters. Now, IF those daughters would express a willing desire to participate in some harmless and mutually enjoyable fun… that would be their business, not mine nor yours.
 
Sure. If you could elaborate on the “harm” of unmarried sex which is absent in the case of marriage. Friendliness is a given.
Well then, en guard, my good Pallas…! 😉

Now given that the consequences of unmarried sex without any protection are too obvious a risk we shall ignore such a scenario for the moment (although obviously it happens). Instead if we focus solely upon protected sex with birth control the risks must seemingly fall under the following categories:
  1. Specific STDs against which a condom offers no protection
  2. Faulty condom and/or birth control usage
  3. Potential emotional conflict
  4. Lower threshold for restraint
1 & 2 appear sufficiently self-explanatory, so a simple comment on 3 & 4 might be in order.
  1. Emotional conflicts might play a role in such a relationship given the potential for sex to become an end in and of itself rather than a means. When a couple engages in recreational sex without a marriage-like commitment they risk setting aside opportunities to explore their actual personalities in greater depth and instead have a given physical end-game as an ever-present replacement goal for their time together. Sex might encourage a certain level of discussion and openness, but it is not a given. There is a distinct possibility that a male, particularly early-on in the relationship, might seek to gain access to sex by merely appearing to be as appealing or appeasing as possible to the female…potentially disguising his true motivations and/or personality in order to succeed at his actual goal: namely conquest of the maiden’s body rather than of her heart.
If sex is off the table, the relationship might be more apt to follow a progression of true affections and respect. Fewer ulterior motives need be feared, as it is a rarer case that a man might disguise his motivations in order to wed a woman with a view of spending a life together. Fairly considered, few rogues seemingly have marriage to a single woman in a lifelong commitment initiated by sexual restraint as an end game.
  1. A lower threshold for restraint may be established if sex is sought early on in the relationship. If a man or woman are not in a habit of restraining their passions in general, is it not reasonable to assume that even after a marriage contract is finally signed no real improvement in their self-control might be expected? For if a gourmand chef is known to devour the cookie dough is it not reasonable to assume that he might equally sample the finished product? Essentially if one’s only experience with real desire has been also the occasion of their giving in to same, what might vouchsafe their relationship from other equal future opportunities to fail? Where is the trial by fire that might prove to them their strength?
For in whom might one have the greater confidence: one who has faced strong temptation in the past and yet resisted heroically, or one who has done what felt pleasing to the senses upon the first opportunity?
Well, my sons (if I had any) would have total respect for the wishes of your daughters (if you have any). The furthest thing they would contemplate is to rape your daughters. Now, IF those daughters would express a willing desire to participate in some harmless and mutually enjoyable fun… that would be their business, not mine nor yours.
Well rape was not the concern that came initially to mind, but seductive talk certainly was. For my daughters are not to be considered infallible…and though their own persons, they will certainly inherit the consequences of their actions…be they potentially positive or negative…
 
Your position is understood…and having stated my own in the previous post, there seems little purpose in attempting a rephrasing of same…carry on as you may see fit…but your sons may not court my daughters…😉
Above is your reply to Pallas Athene…

All I can say is:

👍
 
Sure, I see what you are saying. But this is essentially what Pallas said so many posts ago (see the summation in Post 81, with reference back to 66 and 67). It all boils down to “rational people” deciding what is good vs. what isn’t. But no one can decide what is or isn’t rational without necessarily forcing his/her opinions onto someone else. Meanwhile, it’s a big show of hypocrisy as we decide what’s rational while simultaneously claiming we shouldn’t force our opinions on people.

It’s exactly the summation of Pallas’ position. You DO believe in a way things should be, AND a plan for that, AND a planner. But you believe you should be that planner while I believe God is. Is that not how this boils down?
Well, ahs, I think you’ve hit one of the nails on the head. Problem is, there’s more than one!

Bradski and I can’t seem to agree on the fact that not everyone is reasonable, so how do you get a court of “reasonable” people to make any one decision? I just have not been as lucky as he has in finding all these reaonable people - and I’ve been around a bit.

I mean, how would the logistics work? Okay, Now all you reasonable people get together at city hall this evening because we’re going to decide if it’s okay to covet your neighbors new car.

Think of it. Since MOST people and maybe REASONABLE ones, DO covet their neighbors vehicle.

It seems so easy to understand that there MUST be an objective moral right. Think of all the books written about moral philosophy. Seems to me we christians are doing okay with a set of 10 rules.

Bradski has too much confidence in the human race and I have little. Maybe because I know one so far superior to the human race that it makes us all seem insignificant (that may not be the right word) and incapable of taking care of ourselves.

Look at the mess the world is in…

Fran
 
My team, if I may speak for others, is the one that declares something wrong based on the evidence produced. Not simply because it is written. I’d guess you and I would align on almost everything if we had to decide what was wrong and what was right. With some variance, of course. But most people understand the difference between right and wrong because there are reasons available on which we can base our decisions.

So my son wants to touch the hot stove. I tell him not to because I know (I have evidence, based on my knowledge of physics, biology and past experience) that he will burn himself. But my son likes to find out things for himself, so he ignores my warning and gets burnt.

If I told you that one of my kids had ignored my warning and suffered the consequences, then you would be able to tell which of my children had done so. You would be able to tell my daughter: ‘See what happened to your brother when he ignored his father’s warning? See how he has been harmed?’

Now let’s try an easy hypothetical for you. I say easy because you seem to be very sure on the outcome of premarital sex. It is harmful, you say. So you have known two couples for many years. Very good friends. Excellent members of society. Well thought of. Great parents. But…one couple isn’t married. It seems they didn’t think it was necessary.

How do you tell which couple has been harmed? It was easy with the story about touching the stove. The harm is there for all to see. So what harm is apparent to you which will enable you to say: ‘See what happened to this couple when they ignored their Father’s warning? See how they have been harmed?’

I think the answer I will get will be some empty rhetoric such as ‘their souls have been harmed’ or something as equally fatuous. Because, zz, you have no idea what you mean by saying they will have been harmed. You have no concept of any harm that will result at all. Other than your constant refrain that it displeases God.

So what you are saying, and you can correct me if I’m wrong, is that to persuade anyone to abstain from sex until they are married, your only argument is: ‘it will harm your soul and displease God’.

Now I don’t know about you, but I can’t see that carrying a lot of weight in any discussion about sex outside of marriage. In fact, to be perfectly honest, it carries no weight at all. But thanks for taking the time.
Good morning Bradski,

Some quick points.

Most people understand the difference between right and wrong. Why do we do so much wrong?

It’s because man is so flawed that it’s really difficult to do the right thing. We also base a lot of our actions on our feelings. It’s difficult to explain chrisitanity to a non-christian because it’s a belief system that is not easily understood until you come to know God. Let’s say something right away: Not every catholic is a christian and not every christian lives a christianly life - I’m sorry to say.

If about 70 to 80% of the U.S. was really christian, as they claim to be in polls, just think how marvelous life would be! So we, who consider ourselves christian and trying to live a christian life, are aware of how flawed we are and are trusting in Jesus to give us the strength to live a good and healthy life. And this He does by His death on the cross, but this is a concept you won’t understand I’m afraid.

Now regarding that pilot on his way to Hong Kong. Wouldn’t you say that it’s you who would have to find out if he’s a reasonable pilot, if maybe he might have some psychological problem that may lead him to crash the plane into a mountainside, or maybe he didn’t have enough flight time, or maybe he’s drunk? I’d say that it’s christians who would more be on the side of just trusting that he knows what he’s doing and just accept that they’re going to get to Hong Kong. Now if you are just trusting him, then, by jove, I think you know how we christians must feel! We just trust that God is telling us to do all the right things.

Your two couples. Could we get away from sex for just two mintues? Thanks.
I mean, is that the only reason to get married? God created marriage for many reasons:
It is not good for man to be alone; children need a stable invironment; marriage feels more secure to a child than knowing that his parents are just living together -even if for years- a kid knows which last name he’s going to acquire; it’s easier to introduce your other half:
This is my wife
This is my partner
This is my live-in
This is my companion
This is my life-long friend, etc.

Doesn’t wife sound more important?

Children were supposed to be protected by marriage. But then some reasonble people decided it would be okay for a couple to divorce, even if there were children involved. I don’t think I have to explain to you what heartache and pain and psycological angst this has caused to many children.

Do you not see a disintegration of society due to the above?

Here again, a marriage with God will be stronger because it’s a covenant not a contract. But, here again, we’d get into religious stuff and I doubt you’re interested.

I guess it all boils down to who we want to trust: Other humans, or a superior being.

Fran
p.s. I know you’re married, but the tendency today is to co-inhabit.
 
=Bradski;13290435]It is me trying to make you understand. Understand what I think. But not necessarily to convince you of anything.
I’m sorry Bradski. I really meant it. What do you think was the first cause?
Did I not explain that well enough? Religion is only a threat when it considers itself an authority on secular matters. Non overlapping magisteria etc.
My point is that you shouldn’t be threatened. I said YOUR side has won. However, it should be understood that a true christian is not one only when he’s in church. A christian takes his christianity with him wherever he goes. So, for example, a “christian” senator who votes pro choice is pretty much a hypocrite. He could vote as such if he believes it to be correct, but then he shouldn’t call himself a christian.
I have never known one. We obviously move in different circles.
As you know, I’ve taught catechism to children. I’d say 80% of them (maybe more) are very happy to learn about God and how much God loves them. I see a void in children that do not attend catechism or church. And, as a converted adult, Augustine said:
Almighty God,
you have made us for yourself,
and our hearts are restless
till they find their rest in you;

How do we move in different circles? Don’t children going to catholic school learn about God? Did you tell them it was just a lot of rubbish???
Tell that to the last poster who seems to think he deserves some air time. And hey, you are both Catholics. Should I treat all Catholics differently depending on what they believe? What an odd position.
Bradski - scientists don’t agree with each other. Imagine christians! There are fundamental christians who can PROVE the earth is only 6,000 years old. I’ve seen this on a religious station. It’s fun stuff. Let them be happy. The genesis account of the creation taking place is 7 days is symbolic, of course.

BTW, the position of the catholic church is that is has not position on evolution. One could choose to believe what one wishes. The church says God could have created man however He chose to. We only like to proclaim as certainty what we know to be certain. Sounds reasonable to me.
My side? I think you mean everyone who doesn’t believe as you do. That’s quite a team I have.
Yes. It is quite a team. And look what a good job they’ve done! And getting better all the time. We’re selling baby parts now as a business.

PLEASE answer my question.

Fran
 
=Bradski;13290435]It is me trying to make you understand. Understand what I think. But not necessarily to convince you of anything.
I’m sorry Bradski. I really meant it. What do you think was the first cause?
Did I not explain that well enough? Religion is only a threat when it considers itself an authority on secular matters. Non overlapping magisteria etc.
My point is that you shouldn’t be threatened. I said YOUR side has won. However, it should be understood that a true christian is not one only when he’s in church. A christian takes his christianity with him wherever he goes. So, for example, a “christian” senator who votes pro choice is pretty much a hypocrite. He could vote as such if he believes it to be correct, but then he shouldn’t call himself a christian.
I have never known one. We obviously move in different circles.
As you know, I’ve taught catechism to children. I’d say 80% of them (maybe more) are very happy to learn about God and how much God loves them. I see a void in children that do not attend catechism or church. And, as a converted adult, Augustine said:
Almighty God,
you have made us for yourself,
and our hearts are restless
till they find their rest in you;

How do we move in different circles? Don’t children going to catholic school learn about God? Did you tell them it was just a lot of rubbish???
Tell that to the last poster who seems to think he deserves some air time. And hey, you are both Catholics. Should I treat all Catholics differently depending on what they believe? What an odd position.
Bradski - scientists don’t agree with each other. Imagine christians! There are fundamental christians who can PROVE the earth is only 6,000 years old. I’ve seen this on a religious station. It’s fun stuff. Let them be happy. The genesis account of the creation taking place is 7 days is symbolic, of course.

BTW, the position of the catholic church is that is has no position on evolution. One could choose to believe what one wishes. The church says God could have created man however He chose to. We only like to proclaim as certainty what we know to be certain. Sounds reasonable to me.
My side? I think you mean everyone who doesn’t believe as you do. That’s quite a team I have.
Yes. It is quite a team. And look what a good job they’ve done! And getting better all the time. We’re selling baby parts now as a business.

PLEASE answer my question.

Fran
 
  1. Emotional conflicts might play a role in such a relationship given the potential for sex to become an end in and of itself rather than a means.
This is the bit I don’t get.

It’s been a hot day. I’ve been working in the garden most of the day and I’ve got one eye on the time. When it reaches beer o’clock it’s down tools and I’ll grab a cold one from the fridge, sit on the steps of the deck and have a well-earned drink. Now I’m drinking the beer because I’m thirsty. And gee, that first one tastes just great. But I know that if I drank a beer every time I was thirsty, then I wouldn’t be doing myself any good.

After that first beer, I’ll have another. This time , not because I’m thirsty but because, well damn it, I do like drinking beer. Later on maybe I’ll have a couple of g and t’s while I’m cooking a fat steak with a lot of creamy sauce and there will certainly be a bottle of wine involved at some point.

Now I don’t get a little drunk and stuff myself with a lot of unhealthy food on a daily basis. But I certainly do enjoy it on occasion. Not so much that it does me harm but hey, life is short and I like to enjoy myself as long as I’m not doing myself any damage. And I do know where that line needs to be drawn.

So the beer and the wine and the steak serve two purposes. They are literally food and drink but they also give me a lot of pleasure – as long as I don’t take it to extremes. I could drink water and have a lettuce sandwich and they would serve to quench my thirst and satisfy my hunger. But I’m not of a mind to live like a hermit.

It’s the same with sex. It serves two purposes. It gets women pregnant and it’s great way to spend some quality time with someone with whom you have an emotional attachment. Now I’ve got two children. So you could say I’ve used it for the first purpose just twice in my life. The rest of the time I’m doing it because of the second purpose. And, just like having those beers and the fat steak with a bottle of wine every now and then, I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. And whether I am married or not is irrelevant.
 
…It’s the same with sex. It serves two purposes. It gets women pregnant and it’s great way to spend some quality time with someone with whom you have an emotional attachment. Now I’ve got two children. So you could say I’ve used it for the first purpose just twice in my life. The rest of the time I’m doing it because of the second purpose. And, just like having those beers and the fat steak with a bottle of wine every now and then, I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. And whether I am married or not is irrelevant.
The motivation that prompts the sexual encounter is not a concern - we are built to be drawn to the act. It is only your last sentence that grates. I have had an emotional attachment with more than one woman simultaneously. Perhaps they can say the same in respect of men. Is that the right venue for sex? I don’t think so.
 
Bradski and I can’t seem to agree on the fact that not everyone is reasonable, so how do you get a court of “reasonable” people to make any one decision? I just have not been as lucky as he has in finding all these reaonable people - and I’ve been around a bit.
Not everyone is reasonable. As I said, I am probably unreasonable myself in a lot of decisions I make. But…there are reasonable arguments and we all are in a position to recognise them. By recognising them, and accepting them, we become reasonable people. And again, quoting something from scripture and using arguments from authority do not constitute reasonable arguments. If you want them to stand on their own and be accepted, they must be based on reasonable arguments.
It seems so easy to understand that there MUST be an objective moral right. Think of all the books written about moral philosophy. Seems to me we christians are doing okay with a set of 10 rules.
Most of those rules are about God. And the rest are pretty much universal and not specific to Christianity. And need some qualification.

Take ‘Thou Shall Not Kill’. Well, that sounds OK, but you’re going to end up a vegetarian and unable to protect yourself and your family if the Barbarians are at the gate. So there needs to be a reasonable discussion as to how that should be interpreted in various scenarios. There will be reasonable arguments for and against killing in different circumstances. If you are simply going to say: ‘Nope, not allowed in any circumstances’, then no-one is going to listen to you and your rule, as it stands, becomes worthless.

Same with sex. If you say: ‘Nope, not allowed in any circumstances (except within a marriage and as long as it’s open to procreation)’ then the same thing is going to happen. People will not listen. All these rules, all these ‘moral absolutes’ are contingent upon the situation. Calling them objective is meaningless unless you discuss them in context. And they then become relative to the situation.

As there are an infinite number of scenarios, it is obvious to me that each has to be decided on its merit. By, you guessed it, reasonable arguments.
 
The motivation that prompts the sexual encounter is not a concern - we are built to be drawn to the act. It is only your last sentence that grates. I have had an emotional attachment with more than one woman simultaneously. Perhaps they can say the same in respect of men. Is that the right venue for sex? I don’t think so.
I didn’t say, nor am I suggesting, that if you have an emotional attachment to someone, then you can have sex with them. I simply said that it is quite an enjoyable way to spend some quality time with someone with whom you are emotionally attached. That doesn’t mean that you can’t have mechanical, unemotional sex. Maybe with a prostitute. But that then becomes more of a means to scratch an itch.

Let me put it this way. There’s having sex and there’s making love. I was talking of the latter.
 
Well then, en guard, my good Pallas…! 😉
Glove is picked up. Sword is raised. 🙂

First, there is no need to disregard certain types of sexual activities. Any and all types are “fair” game (even if we do not mention all of them by their colloquial name, to protect the innocent). The only difference we need to examine is whether they are performed within a marriage or outside marriage. To start on a lighthearted node, let me recall a nice joke. “A guy tells his friend: when my partner wants to have sex, she reaches over and strokes me once. When she does not want to have sex, she reaches over and strokes me twenty five times”. I hope you had a smile over this, because it is very important. People might not be equally “charged” to have fun, but they can show their LOVE by giving it one day, and receiving the next day. There is nothing degrading about it. It is NOT using or exploiting the other person.

And it leads to the first question: “why would this activity be harmful for an unmarried couple and harmless for a married one”? You should be aware that in testing procedure only one parameter can be modified at a time. In our case it means that the ONLY difference is the “married” vs. “unmarried” status. Everything else should be equal.

Next observation. The paperwork does not create commitment. One can be faithfully committed to a relationship without going through the ceremony. Now you might ask, why NOT go through with the ceremony, if both parties are committed. The answer is simple: it is none of our business. The only thing that matters is the commitment, with or without the legal or religious ceremony. Where is the “harm” for the unmarried couple, which is absent for the married one?

You might object that it is more “difficult” to stray when one is married, but that does not seem to be the case. As I said: “the paper does not create commitment”. In the very religious Victorian era infidelity was rampant, though well hidden. According to a story, a member of the House of Lords was asked if he would permit his daughter to read “Lady Chatterley’s Lover”. He answered: “of course I would let her read it. But I would not let my gardener to read it”.

Different cultures had different norms. In the medieval German culture pre-marital sex was not just strongly encouraged, it was expected. The bride was supposed to be visibly pregnant, to provide evidence that the couple is fertile. No nonsense about having two virgins try to figure out what should be put where. This reminds me of another excellent joke, but I don’t dare to tell it… someone might get upset about it.

Based upon the rest of your post you seem to equate unmarried sex with uninhibited bed-hopping. Of course such behavior MIGHT carry risks, but taking risks does not equal harmful result. The question was not about which behavior MIGHT carry more risks, rather which result WILL be inherently harmful.
There is a distinct possibility that a male, particularly early-on in the relationship, might seek to gain access to sex by merely appearing to be as appealing or appeasing as possible to the female…potentially disguising his true motivations and/or personality in order to succeed at his actual goal: namely conquest of the maiden’s body rather than of her heart.
Yes, this is another POSSIBILITY. As long as both parties agree and accept this, there is no harm. Actually, the courtship ritual is a two-edged sword. When the “final harbor” - the marriage is reached, people rend to lower their hair - so to speak - and the procedure might degenerate into a ho-hum ritual.
For in whom might one have the greater confidence: one who has faced strong temptation in the past and yet resisted heroically, or one who has done what felt pleasing to the senses upon the first opportunity?
And herein lies another misconception. The greatest confidence is given to someone who has tried and tested several partners, and who KNOWINGLY stays in a faithful relationship, precisely because they KNOW the value of their current partner. The otherwise normal and ever-present curiosity of “how would it be with someone else?” is absent, because they both are aware of the greatness of the current relationship.

There is the atavistic desire to “own” someone, body and “soul”, to keep them for one’s exclusive “use”, as if having had prior relationship would wash off the “farina” from the wings of the “maiden”. Nonsense. Sex is not instinctive, it needs to be learned and practiced. No one would expect a future violin player just to pick up the violin and the fiddlestick and become a Yehudi Menuhin. Practice makes perfect in every facet of life.
 
I didn’t say, nor am I suggesting, that if you have an emotional attachment to someone, then you can have sex with them. I simply said that it is quite an enjoyable way to spend some quality time with someone with whom you are emotionally attached.
The distinction there may be a bit subtle for me! Enjoyment is not in debate.
Let me put it this way. There’s having sex and there’s making love. I was talking of the latter.
Me too. The question is whether the sexual act deserves very particular circumstances - those found in marriage.
 
Most people understand the difference between right and wrong. Why do we do so much wrong?
You answer this yourself.
It’s because man is so flawed that it’s really difficult to do the right thing.
And I agree with that.
Your two couples. Could we get away from sex for just two mintues? Thanks.
I mean, is that the only reason to get married? God created marriage for many reasons:
It is not good for man to be alone; children need a stable invironment; marriage feels more secure to a child than knowing that his parents are just living together -even if for years- a kid knows which last name he’s going to acquire; it’s easier to introduce your other half:
This is my wife
This is my partner
This is my live-in
This is my companion
This is my life-long friend, etc.

Doesn’t wife sound more important?
I think I’ve used all of them (except maybe live-in) to describe my wife. I think that the term ‘wife is simply shorthand for describing her as ‘my partner, my companion, my life-long friend etc’. I did introduce her once as ‘my first wife’ which I thought was amusing but just resulted in a raised eyebrow which spoke volumes.
Here again, a marriage with God will be stronger because it’s a covenant not a contract. But, here again, we’d get into religious stuff and I doubt you’re interested.
You spent a few sentences earlier saying that people are not fulfilling their obligation as Christians, so you effectively refuted that last statement. Getting married ‘in the eyes of God’ is no guarantee that a marriage will be successful. I am not the same person I was when I got married,. Neither is my wife the same. We are lucky in that the person I am now and the woman my wife is now are still in love. That’s unusual. That’s not par for the course. Monogamy is not a natural position.

There’s no requirement to make a covenant with God. That’s too easy to break (as you said, so many people do it). What you need to do is make a promise to your partner that it’s a lifetime commitment. Just be certain that it’s what you want and it’s what she wants and you’re good to go. No guarantees and the chances are it won’t work, but you’re off to a good start.
I know you’re married, but the tendency today is to co-inhabit.
Indeed. I did with my wife and so did my daughter with her husband and so is my son with his partner at the moment. A small sample from which to make any definite statements but zero problems in either case.
 
The question is whether the sexual act deserves very particular circumstances - those found in marriage.
Indeed. And I’m still waiting for a reasonable argument that it is. Other than ‘it damages your soul’ and ‘it really annoys God’. If the defence is going to rest on those two propositions, then the jury is in, the verdict given and the case dismissed.
 
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