Answering an Atheist (2 points I want help with)

[Peter_Plato]

Have you never just sat somewhere on your own and whittled a piece of wood? Or maybe with a friend? I quite enjoy it. As do most people. It serve no purpose other than than the simple pleasure of doing it. **It’s quite harmless. **Well, as long as you have been taught about the dangers and you are careful whilst doing it.

Peter wouldn’t allow it. ‘That’s not the natural purpose of the knife!’

The problem is that your “simple pleasure” purposing of sex isn’t quite harmless, now is it?

It’s not that “Peter won’t allow it,” it’s that Peter is just a little concerned by a death toll of 55 million and counting for the “simple pleasure of doing it.”

Now, if whittling for “simple pleasure” resulted in the deaths of 55 million and your response was “Meh, get over it! And we whittlers aren’t in the least bit concerned because we just LOVE whittling! If it bothers you so much, you don’t have to whittle,” well, Brad, I have to question your wanton readiness to indulge in your simple pleasure at the cost of real harm to others. :doh2:

 

[Bradski]

The problem is that your “simple pleasure” purposing of sex isn’t quite harmless, now is it?

It’s not that “Peter won’t allow it,” it’s that Peter is just a little concerned by a death toll of 55 million and counting…

Catholic women make up 31% of the population and account for 31% of the abortions.
Read more at beliefnet.com/Faiths/Catholic/2001/01/The-Catholic-Abortion-Paradox.aspx#OKwqyREuX8vjAH4v.99

You’re like the NRA representative who refuses to discuss gun control and then has the temerity to complain about accidental gun deaths.

One wonders how low your figure would go with a dispensation to use contraception. Still a grave sin, apparently. But, hey, if you do get pregnant and suddenly realise that you’re not so anti-abortion as you thought you were, I believe you have a special on for the Holy Year.

‘I can book you in for the end of November, Mrs. Robinson’
‘Hmmm. Can we delay that until December 8th? I do have my mortal soul to consider.’

 

[Peter_Plato]

Catholic women make up 31% of the population and account for 31% of the abortions.
Read more at beliefnet.com/Faiths/Catholic/2001/01/The-Catholic-Abortion-Paradox.aspx#OKwqyREuX8vjAH4v.99

You’re like the NRA representative who refuses to discuss gun control and then has the temerity to complain about accidental gun deaths.

One wonders how low your figure would go with a dispensation to use contraception. Still a grave sin, apparently. But, hey, if you do get pregnant and suddenly realise that you’re not so anti-abortion as you thought you were, I believe you have a special on for the Holy Year.

‘I can book you in for the end of November, Mrs. Robinson’
‘Hmmm. Can we delay that until December 8th? I do have my mortal soul to consider.’

All that rationalizing when “Meh, get over it!” would have sufficed to express your deepest concern?

 

[zz912]

Catholic women make up 31% of the population and account for 31% of the abortions.
Read more at beliefnet.com/Faiths/Catholic/2001/01/The-Catholic-Abortion-Paradox.aspx#OKwqyREuX8vjAH4v.99

**You’re like the NRA representative who refuses to discuss gun control and then has the temerity to complain about accidental gun deaths. **

One wonders how low your figure would go with a dispensation to use contraception. Still a grave sin, apparently. But, hey, if you do get pregnant and suddenly realise that you’re not so anti-abortion as you thought you were, I believe you have a special on for the Holy Year.

‘I can book you in for the end of November, Mrs. Robinson’
‘Hmmm. Can we delay that until December 8th? I do have my mortal soul to consider.’

This assumes that abortion and fornication go down with contraception, when the opposite is true. More contraception, more risky behavior, more fornication, more abortions.

 

[Bradski]

This assumes that abortion and fornication go down with contraception, when the opposite is true. More contraception, more risky behavior, more fornication, more abortions.

Catholic women account for nearly a third of abortions. You’re suggesting that if they all used contraception, that rate would increase. But if you banned contraception outright then the abortion rate would go down.

And news just in from the NRA. A spokesman has recommended that all guns should not be locked up but should be accessible to anyone and should be loaded with the safety off. This will, apparently, lead to less risky behaviour.

What a strange world you live in.

 

[Rau]

Catholic women account for nearly a third of abortions. You’re suggesting that if they all used contraception, that rate would increase. But if you banned contraception outright then the abortion rate would go down.

And news just in from the NRA. A spokesman has recommended that all guns should not be locked up but should be accessible to anyone and should be loaded with the safety off. This will, apparently, lead to less risky behaviour.

What a strange world you live in.

It follows I think that the availability of contraception (at the time of its modern rise) increased the willingness to have sexual intercourse in casual circumstances - which presumably is a primary source of the demand for abortion. This arises both from the expected “protection” afforded by the contraception, and the adjustment to social “norms” that a pro-contraception attitude promotes. Thus, more casual sex encounters occur.

The use of contraception reduces the likelihood of individual sex acts giving rise to pregnancy.

The nett impact of this entire picture is what needs to be judged, but is rather hard to do as time is not readily rewound. You cannot simply take the world as it is today, takeaway the contraception, and expect to recreate the trajectory of unplanned pregnancies that would have ensued had there never been modern contraception.

I doubt any study can answer the real “what if” question.

 

[Wesrock]

Catholic women account for nearly a third of abortions. You’re suggesting that if they all used contraception, that rate would increase. But if you banned contraception outright then the abortion rate would go down.

And news just in from the NRA. A spokesman has recommended that all guns should not be locked up but should be accessible to anyone and should be loaded with the safety off. This will, apparently, lead to less risky behaviour.

What a strange world you live in.

You’re assuming that people continue to take a permissive view of sex and as if that isn’t another point of concern, which has not always been the case. Two wrongs (or should I say three?) don’t make a right.

 

[Shaolen]

Catholic women account for nearly a third of abortions. You’re suggesting that if they all used contraception, that rate would increase. But if you banned contraception outright then the abortion rate would go down.

And news just in from the NRA. A spokesman has recommended that all guns should not be locked up but should be accessible to anyone and should be loaded with the safety off. This will, apparently, lead to less risky behaviour.

What a strange world you live in.

Did it occur that many “Catholics” aren’t practicing Catholics? We need to form the culture back to a culture that respects the sexual act and doesn’t treat it as just a casual form of entertainment.

 

[Bradski]

Did it occur that many “Catholics” aren’t practicing Catholics? We need to form the culture back to a culture that respects the sexual act and doesn’t treat it as just a casual form of entertainment.

I’m absolutely certain that the vast majority of Catholics aren’t practicing what a lot of people on this forum are preaching. So it does tick me off to a certain degree having all this holier-than-thou attitude presented to me, generally as a representative of the great unwashed (I.e atheists) when the group that is responsible for the majority of the problems are Catholics themselves. Hardly leading by example.

It reminds me of my local doctor when she told me a few years back that all in all I was in good health, but I really should lose a few pounds. This from a woman who could certainly be described as medically obese.

What you need to come to terms with is the fact that the vast majority of people for the vast majority of the time, from time immemorial, have sex because…wait for it, are you sitting down for this…it feels great.

They’re not thinking about families, children, maintaining their line or even protecting the species. They are thinking: this is great, I should do it more often. Preferable with someone else. And this includes the vast majority of Catholics, not just us liberal, moral degenerated atheists.

God didn’t have to make sex feel great. He could have made childbirth feel like the Fourth of July and Xmas all rolled into one instead. That would have solved all your problems. So, and this is just a shot in the dark, I’d say He had nothing to do with it. Sex just feels great because it’s nature’s way of encouraging us to have it.

The quicker you come to terms with that the better off a lot of people will be.

 

[Peter_Plato]

I’m absolutely certain that the vast majority of Catholics aren’t practicing what a lot of people on this forum are preaching. So it does tick me off to a certain degree having all this holier-than-thou attitude presented to me, generally as a representative of the great unwashed (I.e atheists) when the group that is responsible for the majority of the problems are Catholics themselves. Hardly leading by example.

It reminds me of my local doctor when she told me a few years back that all in all I was in good health, but I really should lose a few pounds. This from a woman who could certainly be described as medically obese.

What you need to come to terms with is the fact that the vast majority of people for the vast majority of the time, from time immemorial, have sex because…wait for it, are you sitting down for this…it feels great.

They’re not thinking about families, children, maintaining their line or even protecting the species. They are thinking: this is great, I should do it more often. Preferable with someone else. And this includes the vast majority of Catholics, not just us liberal, moral degenerated atheists.

God didn’t have to make sex feel great. He could have made childbirth feel like the Fourth of July and Xmas all rolled into one instead. That would have solved all your problems. So, and this is just a shot in the dark, I’d say He had nothing to do with it. Sex just feels great because it’s nature’s way of encouraging us to have it.

The quicker you come to terms with that the better off a lot of people will be.

You really have a shallow view of humanity in addition to the fact that a reason that some people have for sex is not necessarily the only reason, nor even the main reason. That you discount the likelihood that far more important reasons may guide general attitudes while, at times, everyone may permit feelings to overcome their ability to be reasonable and ethical.

Not buying your stilted view of human beings, though, perhaps, it is more true today than ever before in human history.

 

[Rau]

I’m absolutely certain that the vast majority of Catholics aren’t practicing what a lot of people on this forum are preaching…

See what you write below - Who’s preaching now? Brad - it comes with the territory. You choose to come to this site.

What you need to come to terms with is the fact that the vast majority of people for the vast majority of the time, from time immemorial, have sex because…wait for it, are you sitting down for this…it feels great.

They’re not thinking about families, children, maintaining their line or even protecting the species. They are thinking: this is great, I should do it more often…

The quicker you come to terms with that the better off a lot of people will be.

There is no wrong in that motivation. We are built to experience that motivation. And we are called to respond to it properly in the correct context, rather than as a “free-for-all”.

 

[Bradski]

See what you write below - Who’s preaching now?

I’m not telling you that you must think of sex in only procreative terms. I’m not telling you you cannot use contraception. I’m not telling you that you must be married to have sex. In short, I’m not telling you how to live your life. I’m not in a position to preach to you.

All I’m doing is explaining how the world has always worked, is working now and will always work. It works this way because of human nature. You seem to think that’s a bad thing and want to change it. Setting a good example might be a good way to do it but you get a fail for that.

Is there a Plan B?

 

[Rau]

I’m not telling you that you must think of sex in only procreative terms. I’m not telling you you cannot use contraception. I’m not telling you that you must be married to have sex. In short, I’m not telling you how to live your life. I’m not in a position to preach to you.

All I’m doing is explaining how the world has always worked, is working now and will always work. It works this way because of human nature. You seem to think that’s a bad thing and want to change it. Setting a good example might be a good way to do it but you get a fail for that.

Is there a Plan B?

You have equally expressed your views on sex and you have ridiculed those you hear on this Catholic site which do not accord. You hear on this site what catholic morality holds, and you complain that to express it is to tell you how to live your life! None here “tells you” that - or should presume to do so - God taught this behavior. Ok, you don’t believe there is any God. For that reason, I guess you put it on us. But recognize why you do that.

 

[Bradski]

You have equally expressed your views on sex and you have ridiculed those you hear on this Catholic site which do not accord. You hear on this site what catholic morality holds, and you complain that to express it is to tell you how to live your life! None here “tells you” that - or should presume to do so - God taught this behavior. Ok, you don’t believe there is any God. For that reason, I guess you put it on us. But recognize why you do that.

Let’s be clear on something. My views on sex apply to me and my partner. I could care less what you do and how you do it. If Catholic morality restricted itself to what Carholics do and concentrated on making sure they do what you consider to be right, then we might be well on the way to reduce that 31% figure mentioned earlier.

 

[Rau]

Let’s be clear on something. My views on sex apply to me and my partner.

Oh, is that all? I got a different sense when you wrote: “All I’m doing is explaining how the world has always worked, is working now and will always work. It works this way because of human nature.”

I could care less what you do and how you do it.

If you are so tolerant, then perhaps you could go easy on what seems to be the regular condemnation of Catholic views expressed to you when you engage on a Catholic site! Isn’t it a little unreasonable of you to think that when talking to an atheist on this site we should stay “mum” on what we believe God wants?

If Catholic morality restricted itself to what Catholics do and concentrated on making sure they do what you consider to be right…

God called and calls everyone, and the Church (including believers) is that messenger in the world today. You are entirely free to reject the views you hear here, as I am free to express them. The Church does not “make sure [anyone] does what it considers to be right” - it has no such authority or capacity to that end. Just the same right to express heartfelt beliefs as you.

 

[zz912]

Catholic women account for nearly a third of abortions. You’re suggesting that if they all used contraception, that rate would increase. But if you banned contraception outright then the abortion rate would go down.

What a strange world you live in.

Yes, abortion rates go down when contraception is less prevalent. When the “safety net” of contraception is gone, people act more responsibly with their actions.

There is a reason that over 50% of those who seek abortions were using contraception.

 

[zz912]

I’m absolutely certain that the vast majority of Catholics aren’t practicing what a lot of people on this forum are preaching. So it does tick me off to a certain degree having all this holier-than-thou attitude presented to me, generally as a representative of the great unwashed (I.e atheists) when the group that is responsible for the majority of the problems are Catholics themselves. Hardly leading by example.

So the Church and faithful Catholics should be judged on the actions of those who reject Church teaching and don’t live out the faith? This seems reasonable to you?

It reminds me of my local doctor when she told me a few years back that all in all I was in good health, but I really should lose a few pounds. This from a woman who could certainly be described as medically obese.

Was her medical opinion wrong? Did her weight change the reality of your obesity?

What you need to come to terms with is the fact that the vast majority of people for the vast majority of the time, from time immemorial, have sex because…wait for it, are you sitting down for this…it feels great.

That you honestly think Catholics don’t know this shows how shallow your thinking truly is, and how little you actually understand of Catholic teaching. The Catholic Church teaches that sex is a great gift, and that it should be used responsibly, and that people should accept responsibility for their actions, and not seek to use contraception and abortion to avoid responsibility (nothing good ever comes out of attempting to shirk responsibility).

Let’s look at eating food. Eating food “feels great”. But guess what, we need to do it responsibly. We can’t just eat anything we want, and as much as we want. We have to eat responsibly and we have to accept the consequences of our actions. So proper adult behavior is to consider their actions and indulge in eating/sex responsibly.

They’re not thinking about families, children, maintaining their line or even protecting the species. They are thinking: this is great, I should do it more often. Preferable with someone else. And this includes the vast majority of Catholics, not just us liberal, moral degenerated atheists.

And here is a synopsis of our current societal situation, where people are offended at the idea of thinking things through before doing them, and considering the consequences of our actions. People get truly upset and scream “HOW DARE YOU!” to those who tell people to keep sex within marriage and not use sex irresponsibly.

God didn’t have to make sex feel great. He could have made childbirth feel like the Fourth of July and Xmas all rolled into one instead. That would have solved all your problems. So, and this is just a shot in the dark, I’d say He had nothing to do with it. Sex just feels great because it’s nature’s way of encouraging us to have it.

“God could have made exercise feel great. He could have made exercise feel like 4th of July and Christmas all in one. That would have solved our obesity epidemic. This is just a shot in the dark, but the pain of exercise means God doesn’t exist.”

That’s the basis of your argument, and the silliness is evident when you consider it.

The quicker you come to terms with that the better off a lot of people will be.

Funny, but society doesn’t look “better” today than when people were more responsible with sex.

 

[Bradski]

Oh, is that all? I got a different sense when you wrote: “All I’m doing is explaining how the world has always worked, is working now and will always work. It works this way because of human nature.”

How can you actually quote what I said and still misrepresent what I said? I am not proposing anything. I am not advocating anything. I am not encouraging anything. I am not even suggesting anything. I am simply pointing out how things are.

If you are so tolerant, then perhaps you could go easy on what seems to be the regular condemnation of Catholic views expressed to you when you engage on a Catholic site! Isn’t it a little unreasonable of you to think that when talking to an atheist on this site we should stay “mum” on what we believe God wants?

I don’t think that you should stay ‘mum’. I encourage you to put forward your views with good arguments to back them up so we can test them and see if they are valid.

You are entirely free to reject the views you hear here, as I am free to express them.

Quite right. And can we assume that your views on what should and should not be done only apply to Catholics? I’d like to think that whatever I personally do, as long as it has no detrimental effect on you, is my business and mine alone. Likewise the rest of society. But if your views encompass literally everyone, then it seems a little churlish to complain if you are taken to task on your views.

Yes, abortion rates go down when contraception is less prevalent. When the “safety net” of contraception is gone, people act more responsibly with their actions.

Indeed. Leave the gun loaded and the safety catch off and everyone will be a lot more careful.

There is a reason that over 50% of those who seek abortions were using contraception.

Well, presumably because they were having sex just for the fun of it and didn’t want to get pregnant. And that would, presumably, include 50% of all Catholic women. Although the figure for those who use, or have used contraception is way higher than that.

So the Church and faithful Catholics should be judged on the actions of those who reject Church teaching and don’t live out the faith? This seems reasonable to you?

I judge the Catholic Church on the actions of all Catholics. The majority use contraception. The majority support SSM. Nearly a third actually have abortions and the majority have no problem with abortions being available. If all Catholics, or even the greater majority obeyed the Vatican on all matters then I would think: ‘Hey, these rules don’t apply to me, but good on the Catholic laity for sticking to their guns. Maybe they have a point’. But they don’t stick to their guns. They break the rules with impunity. They live their lives pretty much as I live mine. Their beliefs on sexual matters seem to match my own.

So it appears to me that the majority of Catholics think that what they are being told is either wrong or that they don’t consider it that important. I don’t judge the church on its rules or what the Vatican decides or what the pope says. I judge it on the actions of its members.

Was her medical opinion wrong? Did her weight change the reality of your obesity?

I wasn’t obese. She was. The vignette was meant to illustrate hypocrisy.

Let’s look at eating food. Eating food “feels great”. But guess what, we need to do it responsibly. We can’t just eat anything we want, and as much as we want. We have to eat responsibly and we have to accept the consequences of our actions. So proper adult behavior is to consider their actions and indulge in eating/sex responsibly.

Eating too much of the wrong things over a long period of time could do you some harm. Just like sleeping around irresponsibly. But eating a great meal just because you want to, even though there is too much fat or sugar, then what the hell. Go for it. You shouldn’t eat like that irresponsibly, but it won’t do any harm in the long run. But you would deny that option. You would deny someone the option of even eating anything at all simply for the pleasure of it.

People get truly upset and scream “HOW DARE YOU!” to those who tell people to keep sex within marriage and not use sex irresponsibly.

Are you telling me I shouldn’t have sex outside marriage, or just other Catholics? If you are telling me, then I reserve the right to tell you where to take your suggestion.

“God could have made exercise feel great. He could have made exercise feel like 4th of July and Christmas all in one. That would have solved our obesity epidemic. This is just a shot in the dark, but the pain of exercise means God doesn’t exist.”

One, I didn’t say that that proves that God doesn’t exist. That’s impossible to do. I simply said that He hasn’t organised it in that particular way although He could have done so. And two, you can’t be exercising right if it doesn’t make you feel good.

 

[zz912]

Indeed. Leave the gun loaded and the safety catch off and everyone will be a lot more careful.

Poor analogy. You are the one who thinks its okay to teach kids how to “safely” shoot the gun in the house. Our side says that it is only “safe” to do so when you are being responsible and firing the gun at the gun range in an appropriate manner. And no matter how many people get hurt from your “safe” teaching, you still claim it is better than going to the gun range.

It’s funny how the language has been totally corrupted. We call it “safe” sex when you have to wrap your hammer up in plastic before using it. Any sane person would just not put their hammer somewhere that they need plastic to protect it.

Well, presumably because they were having sex just for the fun of it and didn’t want to get pregnant.

Exactly the point. They don’t want responsibility nor the consequences of their actions, so when the birth control fails, they will feel justified in killing the baby instead of facing the natural outcome of sex. You promote this wanton recklessness and irresponsibility.

I judge the Catholic Church on the actions of all Catholics.

Then you are not a serious person.

So it appears to me that the majority of Catholics think that what they are being told is either wrong or that they don’t consider it that important. I don’t judge the church on its rules or what the Vatican decides or what the pope says. I judge it on the actions of its members.

Even those who don’t even attend, or even claim they follow or believe in it. Sounds completely reasonable.

I wasn’t obese. She was. The vignette was meant to illustrate hypocrisy.

You do realize that hypocrites can be correct, right? They just aren’t following their own advice, but the advice is true.

Eating too much of the wrong things over a long period of time could do you some harm. Just like sleeping around irresponsibly. But eating a great meal just because you want to, even though there is too much fat or sugar, then what the hell. Go for it. You shouldn’t eat like that irresponsibly, but it won’t do any harm in the long run. But you would deny that option. You would deny someone the option of even eating anything at all simply for the pleasure of it.

I wish you properly understood my analogy. But since you have lowered sex down to a purely carnal, animalistic understanding, it flew over your head. Sex is a LOT more consequential and impactful than eating one meal. The analogy was pointing out even eating has “rules” you must abide by. And there are consequences when you don’t. You detest these consequences and scream from the rooftops that you demand there be no consequences to your behaviors.

Children eat sugar all day for their meals. Adults realize there is a responsible way to eat. Same with sex. Immature people want to rut around with every possible mate they see. Adults recognize sex is an immense responsibility that must be controlled and properly used.

Are you telling me I shouldn’t have sex outside marriage, or just other Catholics? If you are telling me, then I reserve the right to tell you where to take your suggestion.

Yes, I’m telling you the truth. Don’t have sex outside marriage. It’s an affront to the God who made you, and it leads down a very bad path. It’s up to you whether you accept or reject truth.

 

[Bradski]

Even those who don’t even attend, or even claim they follow or believe in it. Sounds completely reasonable.

You’re darn tootin’ it’s reasonable. Everyone who classifies themselves as a Catholic is a representative of the church. Otherwise what would you suggest? Only those who meet your criteria for what a Catholic actually is should be considered?

Well, let’s take out of the equation all those Catholics who have had an abortion. And all those who think that abortion should be allowed. Then take out all those who have used contraception. And those who have sex outside of marriage. And all those who support SSM . Plus all those who think there’s no problem in the ordination of women. And have no problem with homosexuality. How are we doing? Is there anyone left? If you don’t fulfil all the requirements, then should anyone listen to you?

Yes, I’m telling you the truth. Don’t have sex outside marriage. It’s an affront to the God who made you, and it leads down a very bad path. It’s up to you whether you accept or reject truth.

The thing is zz, you are making blanket rules to cover every person in all circumstances and at all times. If you want to suggest that sleeping around with multiple partners is not a good idea, then I’d agree with you. If you want to suggest that having an abortion as a form of contraception is a bad idea, then I’d agree with you. If you want to suggest that the number of abortions should be reduced, then I’d agree with you. If you want to suggest that young people should be taught to treat sex responsibly, then I would agree with you.

But what you say IS ‘YOU MUST NOT HAVE SEX OUTSIDE MARRIAGE! EVER! AND NO CONTRACEPTION!’

Now I know that that’s not going to work. Personally speaking, having sex outside of marriage carried zero risk, there was zero harm to anyone else and using contraception worked perfectly in enabling my partner and I to plan a family. So in my case, for you to say; ‘You shouldn’t have done it’, is a nonsensical proposition. Not to mention rather impertinent. As it would be for most people.

Telling someone that they shouldn’t have sex is sometimes a good idea. In some circumstances and at some times. Telling them that they should treat their partner with respect is always a good idea. Telling everyone that they shouldn’t be doing it at all at any time whatsoever because it offends God…? Do you really think an attitude like that is going to make the world a better place? When even members of your own church ignore it?

The Pope seems like a guy who has a practical sense of how the world works. A step in the right direction.