Answering an objection to God's forgiveness

[NormalBeliever]

Agree completely to the first part - you make a good point in pointing out that it’s not bad to admit your existential dependence. In fact, it combines nicely with the fact the whole reason God wants to fogive you is because He considers you worth forgiving and loving, so you’ll always have that value in God and in yourself through God giving it to you, so you’ll always have a reason for inner joy.

Regarding swallowing one’s pride, it doesn’t seem to be much of a pride issue as much as a standards issue - how can you truly be accepted or accept yourself or be innocent and redeemed. He could say that even if this is a pride issue it’s a fundamental one that we need to have if we are to live with ourselves.

The person basically thinks that human beings NEED this, that they NEED to compensate themselves because otherwise there is no peace of conscience or acceptance of yourself as being good or innocent, and you’ll always have guilt or shame for what you did. And so from this vantage point needing forgiveness is essentially an admission that you can’t or couldn’t redeem yourself which is painful or hard to accept - being unable to redeem yourself is viewed as a confirmation of your guilt such that even if you are forgiven and redeemed you’ll always have this thorn that you messed up so bad that you couldn’t do anything about it to bother you. Another reason why the person holds this is because he thinks that the very possibility of redeeming yourself seems so good and desirable that lacking it is just tragic - since bad acts ruined you so much then the sweetest peace would be to redeem / prove yourself with good acts

In fact, some could even point to certain things in Christianity like the intro to the Mass where we say we have grievous sin and ask others to pray for us as basically being a confirmation of this permanent thorn of guilt. (Though that’s part of the process either way - admitting your guilt is something that happens in both scenarios, and in this case you also admit your need for help. Thinking admitting a need for help is bad would just be question-begging and assuming that it is bad without proving it - the major reason why needing help is thought of as bad is because the person is dependent on the personal-good-actions-give-the-best-gravity view as outlined above)

 

[goout]

Agree completely to the first part - you make a good point in pointing out that it’s not bad to admit your existential dependence. In fact, it combines nicely with the fact the whole reason God wants to fogive you is because He considers you worth forgiving and loving, so you’ll always have that value in God and in yourself through God giving it to you, so you’ll always have a reason for inner joy.

Regarding swallowing one’s pride, it doesn’t seem to be much of a pride issue as much as a standards issue - how can you truly be accepted or accept yourself or be innocent and redeemed. He could say that even if this is a pride issue it’s a fundamental one that we need to have if we are to live with ourselves.

The person basically thinks that human beings NEED this, that they NEED to compensate themselves because otherwise there is no peace of conscience or acceptance of yourself as being good or innocent, and you’ll always have guilt or shame for what you did. And so from this vantage point needing forgiveness is essentially an admission that you can’t or couldn’t redeem yourself which is painful or hard to accept - being unable to redeem yourself is viewed as a confirmation of your guilt such that even if you are forgiven and redeemed you’ll always have this thorn that you messed up so bad that you couldn’t do anything about it to bother you. Another reason why the person holds this is because he thinks that the very possibility of redeeming yourself seems so good and desirable that lacking it is just tragic - since bad acts ruined you so much then the sweetest peace would be to redeem / prove yourself with good acts

In fact, some could even point to certain things in Christianity like the intro to the Mass where we say we have grievous sin and ask others to pray for us as basically being a confirmation of this permanent thorn of guilt. (Though that’s part of the process either way - admitting your guilt is something that happens in both scenarios, and in this case you also admit your need for help. Thinking admitting a need for help is bad would just be question-begging and assuming that it is bad without proving it - the major reason why needing help is thought of as bad is because the person is dependent on the personal-good-actions-give-the-best-gravity view as outlined above)

I think it’s God’s grace working in us that brings a desire to make restitution. But we must know the source and the limits of those works.

 

[Wesrock]

Part of Catholic belief isn’t just in the forgiveness of sins but the transformation such forgiveness makes possible. Only through God will we be made perfect, in this life or the next.

 

[NormalBeliever]

Resurrecting the thread briefly - one thing I noticed recently is that this resistance to God’s forgiveness and a desire to redeem oneself is in not believing that God’s forgiveness truly makes us innocent. The person essentially assumes that after we did something bad and are forgiven by God, we are still bad people and will always remain so.

But this is false - when God forgives us He truly makes us innocent. Our value in God’s eyes prior to forgiveness is what motivates Him to give us the gift of being born again - literally new creations.

What do you think?

 

[goout]

Yes I wholeheartedly agree with your comments.
The analogy our pastor likes is this:
Imagine a jailbreak. The jailers have been defeated and the gates to the jail cell are open. The only thing required is to make the decision to walk out of of the cell. But the light is blinding and freedom is strange and unknown territory. So we hunker down in safe territory, even if that means remaining in the shame of our sin.

For me personally, the decision to remain in the trappings of sin help me avoid responsibility. That light outside the jail cell is love, and love means responsibility.

 

[NormalBeliever]

Thanks for the feedback, appreciate it! As well as the analogy at the end and for your pastor’s example!