Answering Calvinists--Help

[RedDawgMCM]

So I was discussing things religious with a coworker and he while not self identifying as a Calvinist clearly holds to most of the five points.

How can I help him see the Catholic truth especially concerning Total Depravity and Perseverance of the Saints?

Made me feel good when he said I was the first Catholic willing to discuss faith/theology with him.

 

[ltwin]

Try this Arguments against Calvinism

and Google How to debate with a five point calvinist

 

[starsmurf]

As the above poster is not Catholic and the two links aren’t Catholic either, you may find the links on this search of the Catholic Answers more useful.

google.com/cse?cx=008187825485874300314%3A1bfkl0u3vji&ie=UTF-8&q=Calvinism&sa=Search

 

[RedDawgMCM]

Thanks for the start some interesting reading in these links…my friend was hitting me with all sorts of scripture so I would love to be able to hit him with scripture that could refute his TULIP mind set…

 

[Catholic1954]

You might find “Catholicism and Fundamentalism” by Karl Keating helpful, also, the catechism is cross referenced by the bible.

 

[manualman]

Calvinism generally makes a better case for atheism than it does for Calvinism. (shudders)

I second the Karl Keating book (though it doesn’t explicitly speak to TULIP, it implicitly addresses the resulting objections to catholicism).

 

[SteveVH]

Calvinism generally makes a better case for atheism than it does for Calvinism. (shudders)

I second the Karl Keating book (though it doesn’t explicitly speak to TULIP, it implicitly addresses the resulting objections to catholicism).

I “third” the Karl Keating book. One of the best Catholic apologetics references out there.

 

[PJM]

NON CATHOLIC RELIGIONS

=RedDawgMCM;8227199]So I was discussing things religious with a coworker and he while not self identifying as a Calvinist clearly holds to most of the five points.

How can I help him see the Catholic truth especially concerning Total Depravity and Perseverance of the Saints?

Made me feel good when he said I was the first Catholic willing to discuss faith/theology with him.

Welcome Home!

I’m not precisely clear on what your looking for; but let me run this by you.

***The 'Total Depravity" has to be WRONG because it opposes BOTH God’s Goodness and Absolute need for Fairness and Justice; AND, like the misunderstood “predestination” ALSO deprives humanity of the Gifts God has given us to use.

Consider this: Science tells us that there are BILLIONS of stars, planet, and galaxies…
BUT Only ONE; Only planet earth can support Life forms.

On Planet earth there are HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of “Living Things”…But Only One; ONLY Humanity has the capability to love.

Love requires a Mind, and Intellect and a Freewill… so quantify for me your “freewill.” How large or small is it, what is its shape, color and weight? Can’t be done. even though we can show that they exist. WHY?

Because they are like God Himself [God’s Perfect ours imperfect ], are SPIRITUAL THINGS.***

***Science also confirm that “like must come from Like”. … So the ONLY Spiritual entity that we are aware of is God. …John.4: 23-24 “But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for such the Father seeks to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

So why did God provide EVERY person from all time, these particular GIFTS?***

**Isa.43: 7, 21 **“every one who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made. … “the people whom I formed for myself that they might declare my praise.” The KEY WORD here is MIGHT [freewill choice]

All of humanity has the edibility, the FREEDOM [unencumbered] and the Grave Moral obligation to choose for themselves; where we will spend eternity.

Let’s take the debate one rebuttal at a time. Here are a couple of other verses to share with your friend.

** Rom.6: 13 “Do not yield your members to sin as instruments of wickedness, but yield yourselves to God as men who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments of righteousness.* [To say this would require a freewill choice] *… Deut.30: 15,19 "See, I have set before you this day life and good, death and evil. …I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live, “ [Again requires a FREEWILL CHOICE]

Ask your friend what the Bible baise is for his position!

I’m unclear as to what your seeking on saints or Saints?

Let me know, send me a PM if necessary,

God Bless,
Pat

 

[CopticChristian]

So I was discussing things religious with a coworker and he while not self identifying as a Calvinist clearly holds to most of the five points.

How can I help him see the Catholic truth especially concerning Total Depravity and Perseverance of the Saints?

Made me feel good when he said I was the first Catholic willing to discuss faith/theology with him.

John Calvin

“It is a horrible thing to pour out seed besides the intercourse of man and woman. Deliberately avoiding the intercourse, so that the seed drops on the ground, is double horrible. For this means that one quenches the hope of his family and kills the son, which could be expected, before he is born. This wickedness is now as severely as is possible condemned by the Spirit, through Moses, that Onan, as it were, through a violent and untimely birth, tore away the seed of his brother out the womb, and as cruel as shamefully has thrown on the earth. Moreover he thus has, as much as was in his power, tried to destroy a part of the human race. When a woman in some way drives away the seed out the womb, through aids, then this is rightly seen as an unforgivable crime. Onan was guilty of a similar crime” (Calvin’s Commentary on Genesis, vol. 2, part 16).

If you are predestined to hell or salvation why would Calvin write this?

 

[guanophore]

So I was discussing things religious with a coworker and he while not self identifying as a Calvinist clearly holds to most of the five points.

How can I help him see the Catholic truth especially concerning Total Depravity and Perseverance of the Saints?

Made me feel good when he said I was the first Catholic willing to discuss faith/theology with him.

There is one verse that stumps a TULIP person every time.

Luke 7:28-30

28 I tell you, among those born of women none is greater than John; yet he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he." 29(When they heard this all the people and the tax collectors justified God, having been baptized with the baptism of John; 30 **but the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the purpose of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.) **

If God has destined them to perdition, the how is denying salvation a rejection of His purpose? And if God destined them for salvation, how is it they were able to resist His grace, and reject His purpose for themselves?

1 Tim 2:1-5
1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. 3 This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of **God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. **

Another very good argument to have with a Calvanist is about the salvation of the house of Cornelius. Calvinists will say that the unregenerate man can in no way please God. I usually start this one out by asking “at what point was Cornelius regenerated?” Most will say that it happened when the HS fell upon him and he began speaking in tongues. If they fall into this trap (which they usually do), there is no way to explain how it was that Cornelius was able to please God BEFORE he was “regenerated”.

Acts 10:30-32

30 And Cornelius said, "Four days ago, about this hour, I was keeping the ninth hour of prayer in my house; and behold, **a man stood before me in bright apparel, 31 saying, ‘Cornelius, your prayer has been heard and your alms have been remembered before God. 32 **Send therefore to Joppa and ask for Simon who is called Peter; he is lodging in the house of Simon, a tanner, by the seaside.’

If indeed Cornelius was totally depraved, then there is no way that his alms and prayers could have been heard by God.

A third one I use relates to the fact that mankind is created with a desire to seek, find, and know God. A Calvanist will say that we are dead in our sins, and cannot bend the will toward God. But this is not consistent with the biblical record.

Acts 17:26-28
26 And he made from one every nation of men to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel after him and find him. Yet he is not far from each one of us, 28 for

‘In him we live and move and have our being’;

as even some of your poets have said,

‘For we are indeed his offspring.’

It is part of our nature, being made in the image of God, to feel after him and find Him, even though it is in HIm that we live and move and have our being. We are separated from HIm by sin, but our nature is only marred, not destroyed, as the TULIP dictates. Though the image of God in us is wounded, we can still feel after him and find him.

Calvinists will also say that man has no part in his rejeneration, that he is completely passive. This is not consistent with the scriptural record either.

Heb 4:1-3
2 For good news came to us just as to them; but the message which they heard did not benefit them, because** it did not meet with faith in the hearers**.

Grace must mix with our faith to produce salvation. This is a “work” that we must do. Of course it is a “work” that finds it’s origin and completion in grace, but requires our participation.

John 6:28-30
8 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God,** that you believe **in him whom he has sent.”

 

[RedDawgMCM]

I’m unclear as to what your seeking on saints or Saints?

Let me know, send me a PM if necessary,

God Bless,
Pat

Perseverance of the elect would have been a better bit of phrasing I told him he believed in once saved always saved by believing that, but he denied that, said it was somehow different.

Essentially in his explanation anyway if you are one of the saved you can’t do anything that wouldn’t please God.

 

[jericho777]

Every person conceived deserves to be eternally separated from God via original sin. There are none righteous Rom 3:9-18. That is justice because were conceived in sin Ps 51:5. God’s grace saves Eph 2:5 not violating His justice or payment for sin 1 John 4:10.

God is not obligated to save anyone but He chooses to. You believe God’s salvation is based ultimately on mans will. That man has the final say. God is unable to choose and facilitate salvation for a specific individual He so chooses according to the purpose of His sovereign will. That leaves salvation based on mans will and choice not on Gods.

Why would it be wrong for God to choose who He will save and ensure it with by His sovereign will Rom 8:28-30? Or is God unjust to do so Rom 9:14?

I will leave you with this Jesus prays to ensure Peters faith will not fail and ensure His purpose in Him will be fulfilled. Luke 22:31-32 “Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat. 32But I have prayed for you, Simon, which your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”

Why does Jesus not pray for Judas to stand firm against Satan several verses before? Luke 22: 3Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve. 4And Judas went to the chief priests and the officers of the temple guard and discussed with them how he might betray Jesus.

Jesus even knew he was a devil. John6:70-71 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.

These verses highlight Jesus directly intervening and ensuring the faith of one He has called while letting Satan fulfill his purpose in Judas. Is Jesus then unfair? He demonstrates His will and authority to save one and not another. Truth be known it is only by God actively intervening directly in the lives of those He has chosen that any can be saved. He is the author and finisher of our faith Heb 12:2.

 

[PJM]

=RedDawgMCM;8238531]Perseverance of the elect would have been a better bit of phrasing I told him he believed in once saved always saved by believing that, but he denied that, said it was somehow different.

Essentially in his explanation anyway if you are one of the saved you can’t do anything that wouldn’t please God.

Wow! Thats SPOOKY

It denies who and what God is and our Freewill, minds and intellects; all SPIRITUAL THINGS that no other living THING has, precisely to enable us to choose

Obviously he does not believe in the Bible?

I’s just pray for him.

If they don’t accept the bible and can’t or refuse to apply logic, thenit’s in Gods capable and loving hands.

God Bless,
Pat

 

[RedDawgMCM]

Wow! Thats SPOOKY

It denies who and what God is and our Freewill, minds and intellects; all SPIRITUAL THINGS that no other living THING has, precisely to enable us to choose

Obviously he does not believe in the Bible?

I’s just pray for him.

If they don’t accept the bible and can’t or refuse to apply logic, thenit’s in Gods capable and loving hands.

God Bless,
Pat

No he believes very much in the Bible just doesn’t have the Church’s guidance in its proper interpretation

 

[PJM]

=RedDawgMCM;8239123]No he believes very much in the Bible just doesn’t have the Church’s guidance in its proper interpretation

OK:thumbsup:

Then lets go slow. print this so you can share it with him.

Then pass these by him and get his reaction…

**2Tim.3: 16 to 17 **"All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. "

1John.1 Verses 8 to 10: “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”

**1John.5 Verses 16 to 17 **"If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. ***There is sin which is mortal; ***I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.

John.20 Verses 20 to 23 " When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained”

Matt.16:18 to 19 " And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, [now a done deal] and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

God Bless,
Pat

 

[guanophore]

Essentially in his explanation anyway if you are one of the saved you can’t do anything that wouldn’t please God.

Yes. This is the heresy of Total Depravity. This is why the case of Cornelius is so instructive.

When was Cornelius saved?

 

[guanophore]

God is not obligated to save anyone but He chooses to. **You believe God’s salvation is based ultimately on mans will. **

No, Jer. This is a misunderstanding of the Catholic faith. The Catholic faith produced the NT, that is why there is nothing in the NT that is not Catholic. In that Catholic book, we find this verse:

John 1:12-13
12 But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

We are born again by the will of God, not the will of man. Salvation is, just as you have noted, from God, because he chooses to save us. The fact that He allows man’s will to have a role in that salvation does not chage the source or the basis of salvation. I will show you this in another place:

Eph 2:7-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God - 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

In this verse, written by a Catholic, for and about Catholicism, it is clear that we are saved by grace, through faith. The basis of our salvation is the grace of God, not the will of man.

Now in v. 10 we can see that the purpose of our salvation (among other things) is that we walk in the works that God has prepared for us. The fact that these works are a part of our salvation does not make them the basis of that salvation.
That man has the final say. God is unable to choose and facilitate salvation for a specific individual He so chooses according to the purpose of His sovereign will. That leaves salvation based on mans will and choice not on Gods.

Why would it be wrong for God to choose who He will save and ensure it with by His sovereign will Rom 8:28-30? Or is God unjust to do so Rom 9:14?

It would not be 'wrong". God can do whatever He wants. He has chosen to make salvation available to all.

Acts 17:30-31
30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and of this he has given assurance to all men by raising him from the dead."

Why would God command people to repent when He had not given them sufficient grace to do so? Does that make any logical sense? I assert that God does not give commandments to men that He is not able or willing to provide them with the grace to comply.

Truth be known it is only by God actively intervening directly in the lives of those He has chosen that any can be saved. He is the author and finisher of our faith Heb 12:2.

It is very Catholic of you to say this.

 

[ndismyhome]

I know that you are Catholic, but if you want some insight, take a look at the Lutheran arguments against Calvinism.

youtube.com/watch?v=aGJKiU90JHs

PS: This guy is very knowledgeable about the topic and will respond to messages via his youtube channel.

 

[jericho777]

No, Jer. This is a misunderstanding of the Catholic faith. The Catholic faith produced the NT, that is why there is nothing in the NT that is not Catholic. In that Catholic book, we find this verse:

John 1:12-13
12 But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

We are born again by the will of God, not the will of man. Salvation is, just as you have noted, from God, because he chooses to save us. The fact that He allows man’s will to have a role in that salvation does not chage the source or the basis of salvation. I will show you this in another place:

Eph 2:7-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God - 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Interesting I have gotten quite the opposite statement from others here. So you agree then God ultimately has the final choice in who is saved. Oddly enough you sound Calvinistic.

In this verse, written by a Catholic, for and about Catholicism, it is clear that we are saved by grace, through faith. The basis of our salvation is the grace of God, not the will of man.

Now in v. 10 we can see that the purpose of our salvation (among other things) is that we walk in the works that God has prepared for us. The fact that these works are a part of our salvation does not make them the basis of that salvation.
That man has the final say. God is unable to choose and facilitate salvation for a specific individual He so chooses according to the purpose of His sovereign will. That leaves salvation based on mans will and choice not on Gods.

It would not be 'wrong". God can do whatever He wants. He has chosen to make salvation available to all.

Acts 17:30-31
30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and of this he has given assurance to all men by raising him from the dead."

Now you are contradicting yourself because you just quoted John 1:12-13 which says the will of God saves a man NOT our will which equals our desire. He gives those He wants to save the will, desire and grace to be saved. That is the same as the perseverance of the saints.
12 But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Remember those with a sin nature and cannot please God. They are separated from Him. Those whose mind the Spirit CONTROLS please God. If we are “CONTROLLED” either by the Sprirt or the sinful mind then our freewill is limited by each of its respective agents. Rom 8:5-11 explains the two positions. 5Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind CONTROLED by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
9You, however, are CONTROLLED not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

Why would God command people to repent when He had not given them sufficient grace to do so? Does that make any logical sense? I assert that God does not give commandments to men that He is not able or willing to provide them with the grace to comply.

This is the answer to your last question. Rom 9:13,14:22-24 13Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

 

[guanophore]

Interesting I have gotten quite the opposite statement from others here. So you agree then God ultimately has the final choice in who is saved. Oddly enough you sound Calvinistic.

I think it sounds that way because you misunderstood what I said. Human beings are made in the image and likeness of God. Part of that divine character includes choice- free will. While our free will was wounded by original sin, the Apostles taught that the ability and desire for men to seek God is part of our nature. This is not consistent with Calvanistic thought. He taught that we do NOT seek for the goodness of God because we are slaves to sin. He taught that only the regenerate can seek God, and he disregarded what the Aposltes taught us about prevenient grace.

Now you are contradicting yourself because you just quoted John 1:12-13 which says the will of God saves a man NOT our will which equals our desire. He gives those He wants to save the will, desire and grace to be saved. That is the same as the perseverance of the saints.
12 But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

It is not a contradiction, but neither is it consistent with this Calvanist rendition. The Aposltes taught that God wants all to be saved. He has provided sufficient grace to all to respond to His call of repentance. This is His will.

Remember those with a sin nature and cannot please God.

This is a false statement. I could say more about that, but I will leave it there.

They are separated from Him. Those whose mind the Spirit CONTROLS please God. If we are “CONTROLLED” either by the Sprirt or the sinful mind then our freewill is limited by each of its respective agents. Rom 8:5-11 explains the two positions. 5Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind CONTROLED by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
9You, however, are CONTROLLED not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

The nature of man contains both the sin nature, and the nature that strives to conform itself to God (His “stamp” and likeness). They compete. The sin nature will remain with us until we are united with our heavenly reward, and are freed from our mortal bodies, in which that concupiscence reigns. Having a sin nature, though, does not make it impossible to please God. If that were the case, then no one on earth would ever be able to please Him, since we all have that nature from conception to death.

This is the answer to your last question. Rom 9:13,14:22-24 13Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

Predestination is part of Catholicism. It does not negate His desire that all be saved, and come to the knowledge of the Truth.

That passage does not answer my question. Why would God command that which He did not give the grace to comply?

If he has chosen vessels only for wrath, why call them to repent?