Answering Christ Imitators' Questions on Catholicism

[benedictus2]

This is a branch off from the Tear Each Other Apart and Why are you Protestant threads.

Christ Imitator (henceforth to be refered to as CI ), since your questions and our discussion seem to be not in line with the above threads, I have set this up to answer your questions on the Catholic Church and to debate doctrinal points as you see fit.

This way we will our discussion will not be “off topic” as this is your topic/s.

 

[benedictus2]

From "Why are you Protestant thread"

Thank you for your post. I suppose I will have to quit trying to learn about Catholicism on here, and will just have to teach people what I know on the Protestant side.

Don’t quit. There are people here who will be more than happy to debate with you.

I don’t believe that I am that uneducated about the Christian faith, and how I should be living out my life as a Christian. I may not know a lot about Catholocism, but, that’s not a huge issue.

Probably not from your point of view. But if you look at the fact that for 1500 years there was only the Catholic Church and that the Catholic Church is the Church that Christ founded here on earth, then really it is quite a sizeable issue because it then goes into the realm of the will of God. What Has God willed regarding His Church as it is written in the Bible?

I will learn some about it by talking with Catholic friends from school, hopefully they will know at least some things that I do not. .

The ones here in the forum will probably be better informed Catholics than the ones that you will meet on the street. So it is indeed good, that God has led you this way.

I will agree that there is a lot more that I have to learn about the Lord, but so does every other person on this Earth.

Completely agree. We can never, ever learn everything about the Lord this side of eternity.

Again, in regards to “milk and food” I believe that I am quite familiar with the "real food.

Sure. There are people from any religion, denomination, church that are like this. People seem to think that acting good, and doing good things is what God is all about; and that is far from the truth. Sure, he likes to see us being respectufl to others, but it’s about giving up some of the worldly possesions and giving in to what he has planned for our lives.

I give a qualified yes to this. The giving up of SOME of the worldly possesions does not quite cut it. The Lord requires our total submission, our total abandonment to His will. And for some that will entail giving up ALL of their worldly possesions as the likes of St Francis of Assisi has done.

 

[benedictus2]

From “Why are you Protestant” thread

I believe as a follower of Jesus Christ that we are to live our lives as Christ did when he walked our Earth.

A fair enough conclusion but if we are to be real followers of Christ then we would believe everything that He says and follow everything that He says not just those that suit our current slant in theology.

Following Christ is not so much as living as He lived but living the way He wants us to live.

Followers of Christ are to take their crosses, to love as He loved.

I do not believe that all that hail marry, Lord’s Prayer, cross over your heart, etc, is necessary at all.

Why not? Why do you think they are not necessary? What do you understand about the Hail Mary, what do you understand about making the sign of the Cross?

God wants us to live out a lifestyle that would resemble the “fruits of the spirit.”

What are the fruits of the Spirit ? What are the lifestyles that are in conformity with these fruits?

don’t believe he calls us to practice all these rituals.

What do you think these rituals mean?

{Rituals are for pagans

, not for Christians.}

–And I strongly believe this.

The Jews had rituals. Their rituals are even prescribed by God. So do you think the Jews are pagans?

Jesus performed a ritual at the Last Supper. Would you call Jesus a pagan?

If you can give me Biblical references, or even where in the Bible that you would get the idea to practice all of these ritualistic (un-Biblical) traditions; I would love to read through it, thank-you.

Let us take one ritual at a time.
I presume you regard the Eucharist / Mass as a ritual. Well, read about the Lord’s Supper.

 

[benedictus2]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christ Imitator forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif

Very true, which is why I never claimed that. You also realize that the Bible could very well be just as true as the Quaran, right?

From an Atheists perspective yes.

No. I am asking why you think you should do that at all.

It wasn’t me who posted this but I think this was said in jest.

Wouldn’t it be easier for you to prove to me that they are necessary? I see no where in the Bible that it mentions doing any of the things Catholics do; such as Hail Mary’s.

Nope, because I am not the one disputing it. You are the one querying it so the burden of proof is on you.

A quick reply regarding the Hail Mary. Go to Luke. This is Elizabeths’s salutation when Mary visited her and John the Baptist lept in her womb.

I NEVER said that it was historically accurate in everything. I said that nothing has been proven inaccuarte.

In cases of myths there is no way of proving anything accurate because myths do not deal with accuracies. Some stories in the Bible are myths and some are historical.

There are different beliefs on how the Earth was started, but that doesn’t mean that the Biblical belief in creation has been diproven.

If there are differing accounts in the Bible itself of the origin of the universe, then don’t you think we have to set out first which one is correct from our perspective before anyone could disprove it?

But, Jesus did NOT say that it’s the way we SHOULD pray. He said:
“Pray, then, in this way (or “in this manner” {NKJV}). 'Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name…” {Matthew6:9 NASB} “in this way” that means it is an exapmle of how we should pray. I am not saying that reciting the Lord’s prayer is a bad thing to do; however, it is not a very specific prayers, and I hear people use it all the time in very different situations.

NAB Matthew 6:9-10

9 "This is how you are to pray: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name,

And yes it is a very specific prayer. It is the most perfect prayer. If you are interested, the Pope has actually devoted a whole chapter on this prayer alone in his book “Jesus of Nazareth”. A great book.

If you like I can post bits and pieces of his explanations of the our father in another thread just for you.

That’s like saying why did God bother putting us on the Earth; he should have just sent us to Heaven or Hell right away…I mean he already knows if we choose to follow his ways or not

.

Not quite right but I won’t go into that now as predestination is a whole different kettle of fish best tackled on its own. You missed my point though. I was trying to show that the rule you made (that we should pray only personal, own words prayer) is precisely just that, your own rule.

Alright, I will do that for you. All you had to do was ask.

And, maybe saying that they are “pagan” was the wrong word, and I appologize.

• Catholics do not believe that Christ’s death paid the full penalty for sin.

Only because as I have said before you do not know Catholic Doctrine. I would even venture to say you know almost zilch about Catholic doctrine.

Catholic doctrine never ever said that. But your idea of “penalty for sin” needs more elaboraton because your (possibly Calvinistic) concept is wrong with regards this aspect of salvation theology.

Thus the idea of purgatory. If they believed that, then there would be no reason for a purgatory. --If I am correct, in Catholicism, Purgatory is the place where those who are to enter Heaven must go in order to be “washed of their sins.”

Purgatory as the name implies means purgation, to be purged of sin.

Explain this to me: I am presuming that you are some sort of “born again” Christian and you believe that once saved always saved.
So let’s say you have been “born again” so “washed clean, regenerated”, led an almost spotless life, but then you get overtaken by lust for this person and you commit sin again (raped someone) and in the process of raping someone was shot in the head by the police. What happens then, where do you go?

I will give you a better understanding of what the doctrine of purgatory really means on my next post.

What I don’t understand is…if Jesus’ blood was shed to “wash away our sins”, then what is the necessity of Purgatory?

When we are baptized, all our sins (original and personal) are all washed away. If you should get hit by a car and die straight after, then you got straight to heaven.

But many commit sins again after baptism, hence purgatory.

This is one thing, the idea of a “between Heaven location”, Purgatory is a pagan idea.

Nope. The very early Christians believed in purgatory. It is only protestant theology which is essentially truncated Christianity that did away with this doctrine. The Orthodox churches (though they have not defined this doctrine) also believe in it. This is incorporated in their doctine of Theosis, the process of deification.

Oh and BTW, CS Lewis (who is prostestant) believes in purgatory. Will post his thoughts on this later.

1. Catholics are idolatrous, they honor/worship Mary. Isn’t one of the things Catholic say, something like: “Holy Mary, mother of God”?

We honor Mary. We do not worship her. And Mary is indeed Holy. She is now in heaven so she is Holy. And Mary IS the mother of God. Again, go to Luke.

 

[Scardinoz]

Interestingly, Martin Luther believed that veneration (honoring; not worshipping) of Mary was entirely Biblical.

Martin Luther and John Calvin both considered the literal Body and Blood of Christ to be the only possible interpretation of the Bible in regard to Communion.

 

[prodigalson12]

honoring; not worshipping of Mary is also what we Catholics believe

 

[Christ_Imitator]

honoring; not worshiping of Mary is also what we Catholics believe

Alright, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. I mean, she was given the opprotunity to give birth to Jesus Christ.

A quick reply regarding the Hail Mary. Go to Luke. This is Elizabeth’s salutation when Mary visited her and John the Baptist lept in her womb.

So, if I read through the book of Luke, I should find in there why Catholics are into the “Hail Mary” thing? Could you give me a few chapters to narrow it down?

Some stories in the Bible are myths and some are historical.

And how exactly can you be sure you know which of them are true, and which are myths?
Also, why would the people who put the Bible together add mythical stories to the Bible; shouldn’t they have been left out?

the Pope has actually devoted a whole chapter on this prayer alone in his book “Jesus of Nazareth”. A great book.

Thanks, I will add that to my list of books to read.
There are so many that I want to read. I will add this closer to the top of the list with the other religious/spiritual/christian books.

that we should pray only personal, own words prayer is precisely just that, your own rule.

Maybe that’s true. But, I can think of no reason why God would want to hear us recite a prayer over to him exactly the way he taught it to us? “Good little Chrstian, you know how to memorize my special prayer” I believe that the idea of praying incorpirating all the elements of the Lord’s Prayer is what Jesus intended for us to get from it when he taught it to his disciples. Such as telling God how great he is, thanksgiving, asking him to provide us with our daily needs, and asking for forgiveness.

So let’s say you have been “born again” so “washed clean, regenerated”, led an almost spotless life, but then you get overtaken by lust for this person and you commit sin again (raped someone) and in the process of raping someone was shot in the head by the police. What happens then, where do you go?

Sounds like something I hear from many skeptical atheist friends. Like I tell them, only the Lord knows our hearts, he knows whether we truly were living our lives dedicated to him, or if we were living our lives for selfish reasons. There’s also that question about what happens to a (true) Christian who commits suicide before death? Do they go to Hell because they committed a sin right before they did, or go to Heaven? Same with a homosexual Christian. Somebody who struggles with homosexuality (meaning they’ve had sax with someone of the same gender) but they truly want to change their lifestyle for the Lord. Now that person has decided they are wrong, but the last thing they did before they died was have sex with someone of the same sex; never actually asked God to forgive them, but they had seriously been wanting to change for the Lord.

There are so many of these types of just before death stories. Non of us, whether Catholic or Protestant can say that the person goes to Heaven or Hell, because we don’t know what was really going on in their heart. But, I believe that they are all able to go to Heaven if they had a real desire to change their ways for the Lord.

The very early Christians believed in purgatory. It is only protestant theology which is essentially truncated Christianity that did away with this doctrine. The Orthodox churches (though they have not defined this doctrine) also believe in it. This is incorporated in their doctrine of Theosis, the process of deification.

You said something about Baptism and purgatory in an earlier post, but I didn’t use it as a quote here, sorry. I wanted to say though, that I don’t believe that Baptism actually washes away sins. I do however believe that purgatory makes sense, but I still see no need for purgatory. I also know that whether or not I believe in purgatory, really does not matter; my personal belief does not make it more or less real. So, if it’s real, that doesn’t mean I am going to Hell for not believing in the existence Purgatory.

She is now in heaven so she is Holy. And Mary IS the mother of God. Again, go to Luke.

Two things I want to comment/ask about this.

1: Mother would mean that Mary gave birth to or raised God. Mary raised Jesus, who was filled with God (through his Holy Spirit/one-in the same), but she didn’t actually give birth to God, because God is eternal. So, this doesn’t really make sense to me.

2: So, anybody who is in Heaven would be considered “Holy?” I do not believe this. I believe that God is the only “Holy” one. What then would separate God from those other humans in Heaven if they are all Holy? Doesn’t Holy mean perfect, I thought that God is the only perfect one.
People in Heaven are without sin, but they are still not perfect…at least that’s what I thought.

 

[Scardinoz]

And how exactly can you be sure you know which of them are true, and which are myths?
Also, why would the people who put the Bible together add mythical stories to the Bible; shouldn’t they have been left out?

The word “myth” in this context is probably better understood as ‘extended parable’.

 

[mlldrl]

From Christ Imitator

Maybe that’s true. But, I can think of no reason why God would want to hear us recite a prayer over to him exactly the way he taught it to us? “Good little Chrstian, you know how to memorize my special prayer” I believe that the idea of praying incorpirating all the elements of the Lord’s Prayer is what Jesus intended for us to get from it when he taught it to his disciples. Such as telling God how great he is, thanksgiving, asking him to provide us with our daily needs, and asking for forgiveness.

I don’t mean to sound mean spirited but when I read comments like this I can’t help but think that people who truly think this way haven’t read much of the Old Testament. Or parts of the New Testament for that matter.

M

 

[prodigalson12]

And how exactly can you be sure you know which of them are true, and which are myths?
Also, why would the people who put the Bible together add mythical stories to the Bible; shouldn’t they have been left out?

If the story, or as stated “myth” which isn’t the best word for it in my book states a general person or situation, nothing specific, such as with the Prodigal son, it’s the meaning of the story that matters more then if it’s an example of a true account of one particular individual or circumstance. If it does state a specific name, or better yet, lineage towards that individual, it very much is real, and should not only be taken note of the story around it, it stands as a beakon within a real situation which is a more plain, direct approach to the story.

Why are there both, and why they are left in, Take the story of Noah and how very precise the ark was detailed as to it’s construction. Do we ever really need to create another ark, do we have any practical use for the dimensions given? Not for most peoples purposes, but what it does is refute through the ages with those that argue that it’s just a myth or story to learn from, rather it’s a historical account we need to take particular note of and I’m sure those that want to expand upon the account, at least have something more to go with, so those dimensions give them clues to aid them in further research and study about the account. With the story of the prodigal son, there indeed could have been a real individual that it’s talking about, but that is unimportant, the lesson and message it’s conveying is what our focus should be upon because even though on the surface, read plainly, it’s about how he learned his lesson and how his father took him back in and was very happy to do so, the message itself as you know is about how we stray from God and how turning back to him, he is very happy to take us back in.

It doesn’t take a great deal of discernment to figure out which is based upon just the story or lesson and what’s a true account of something that took place.

 

[Christ_Imitator]

Followers of Christ are to take their crosses, to love as He loved.

Yes. I understamd this. When I chose the name “Christ imitator” I never meant to claim that I am ever going to live my life exactly as Jesus Christ did; but that I would imitate his actions and examples that he set for us in the Bible.
Such as his love for all people and his his forgiveness for people doing wrong against him; those are things that I want to live out in my life as well. I also understamd that there are plans that the Lord has for me in my life that are not the same as in Jesus’ life. But one thing is very similar. Ministring to a fallen world, full of several types of people that all need to hear the word of God.

What are the fruits of the Spirit ? What are the lifestyles that are in conformity with these fruits?

The fruits of the spirit are: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. I believe that once we become Christians, we recieve the Holy Spirit as a gift from God. And, if we do not see ourselves living out these things in our life, then we should question whether or not we’ve really asked the Lord into our life, or if we just recited some prayer that was told to us in sunday school. “If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the spirit,” Sure we all sin after we have been filled with the Holy Spirit; but we are more aware of sin, and we have a desire to repent of these sins, because we realize that those sinful things we do are wrong.

What do you think these rituals mean?

The rituals that I spoke of I believe are fine, but I don’t see why they should be necessary, or how they will help to bring us closer to God? Reading his word, praying and listening to him speak to us, through our pastor’s or priest’s messages, etc; are all thigns that I think can bring us closer to the Lord. Those other things don’t seem of any importance to me; but that may be beacause I am not aware of their full meaning? Or, that they are simply rituals and traditions that have been practiced by people for ever and passed down, hoping it would somehow help them?

The giving up of SOME of the worldly possesions does not quite cut it.

Yes, I completly agree with you on this; I sort of typed it out wrong. I believe that we should be willing to give up all of our worldy possesions, but in reality, this never happens. There are always things people hold onto/things they aren’t willing to give up. Many times it’s things that we do not even think about, because it’s such a regual part of our life and we see nothing wrong with it.

 

[Christ_Imitator]

The word “myth” in this context is probably better understood as ‘extended parable’.

Thank you for clearing that up; makes more sense. I agree with that, there are many parables within the Bible. The actual message is what is of importance rather than whether or not the event actuaclly is something that took place in real life.

 

[prodigalson12]

Ministring to a fallen world, full of several types of people that all need to hear the word of God.

And who told you that you are supposed to be doing this? Look into the messages you are currently conveying now, are they from God or are they from your own human perspective? We live in a world that has many false prophets, many false teachers, they are all basing their so called instruction upon a worldly perspective, it is nothing from above at all and Christ warns us about them… A teacher, minister, etc. is to be held accountable to a higher standard then the rest of us, take very particular note of that one, the reason why are many, but mainly, as a teacher, as a leader, your actions, good or bad will be followed by people you are in charge of, you don’t get the luxury’s the rest of us have, because as a leader, you are in charge of the flock, leading it into salvation or damnation depend upon your actions.

When a prophet makes a declaration, it is not him that is talking, it is God through him, if he in any way obscures it, he is then false, and this is where the danger lies and how the prophecy did not come from him, his discernment, any human element at all, this is also in line with each of our vocations, for example, a priest is called by God to become one, that one cannot just decide one day they want to be a priest and expect to be happy with the decision, it’s not personal aspirations that get you there, it’s the calling .,

 

[prodigalson12]

Also, just found out Christ Imitator is only a 17 year old child, just in case anybody wants to address this individual as an adult, they absolutely are not.

 

[benedictus2]

Alright, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. I mean, she was given the opprotunity to give birth to Jesus Christ.

That is true but it is more than that. Would you regard your mother as just having been given the opportunity to give birth to you? Your mother is your mother, someone chosen by God through whom He will bring you into this world. Motherhood is not about opportunities.
God CHOSE/ WILLED, her to be the mother of His Son. In all of Creation there will be none like her because there is only one God.
It is through her fiat, her great and generous yes, that Christ became man.

So, if I read through the book of Luke, I should find in there why Catholics are into the “Hail Mary” thing? Could you give me a few chapters to narrow it down?

First, here is the Hail Mary prayer:
Part 1: Hail Mary, the Lord is with you, Blessed are you among women and Blessed is the fuit of your womb, Jesus.
Part 2: Holy May, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, amen.

Now here are the verses from Luke’s gospel for Part 1.

Luke 1:26- 28 -In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a town of Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph, of the house of David, and the virgin’s name was Mary. And coming to her, he said, “Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.”

Luke 1:41-43 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord 1should come to me?

The second part is a request for Mary to pray for us.
James 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful.
The prayers of the just is very efficacious and those who are in heaven have certainly been declared just.

And how exactly can you be sure you know which of them are true, and which are myths?

This is when archeological findings come into play.

Also, why would the people who put the Bible together add mythical stories to the Bible; shouldn’t they have been left out?

No, because the Bible is not meant to be historical book. The Bible is the Word of God for in its pages you encounter God. One particular book that comes to mind is the book of Job.

You can hear God speaking through the Bible. That is why exegesis is needed.

Thanks, I will add that to my list of books to read.

There are so many that I want to read. I will add this closer to the top of the list with the other religious/spiritual/christian books.

I think you will love it. It is a truly wonderful book. I will post a section here each day on his exposition of the Our Father.

Maybe that’s true. But, I can think of no reason why God would want to hear us recite a prayer over to him exactly the way he taught it to us? “Good little Chrstian, you know how to memorize my special prayer”

Because we are not to simply “recite” it. We are supposed to meditate and internalise the words of this prayer. If one is just going to parrot it then yes your objection is valid.
But even the Our Father said hurriedly if done with good intent still avails much.
I have heard of a priest who prayed one Our Father through out the day. He would give an hour meditating on each verse.

I believe that the idea of praying incorpirating all the elements of the Lord’s Prayer is what Jesus intended for us to get from it when he taught it to his disciples. Such as telling God how great he is, thanksgiving, asking him to provide us with our daily needs, and asking for forgiveness.

Yes that is true too. But it is much more than that. In this prayer, we are praying with Jesus. This is why in the Mass, this prayer comes after the doxology, the hymn of praise that goes " Through Him, with Him, in Him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all glory and honor is yours almighty Father, forever and ever. Amen"

Sounds like something I hear from many skeptical atheist friends. Like I tell them, only the Lord knows our hearts, he knows whether we truly were living our lives dedicated to him, or if we were living our lives for selfish reasons. There’s also that question about what happens to a (true) Christian who commits suicide before death? Do they go to Hell because they committed a sin right before they did, or go to Heaven? Same with a homosexual Christian. Somebody who struggles with homosexuality (meaning they’ve had sax with someone of the same gender) but they truly want to change their lifestyle for the Lord. Now that person has decided they are wrong, but the last thing they did before they died was have sex with someone of the same sex; never actually asked God to forgive them, but they had seriously been wanting to change for the Lord.

So based on the Bible what is the answer to that? Do they go to hell or do they go to heaven?

 

[benedictus2]

Also, just found out Christ Imitator is only a 17 year old child, just in case anybody wants to address this individual as an adult, they absolutely are not.

I would still address him as an adult. I think he is sincere and obviously loves our Lord very much.

 

[benedictus2]

There are so many of these types of just before death stories. Non of us, whether Catholic or Protestant can say that the person goes to Heaven or Hell, because we don’t know what was really going on in their heart. But, I believe that they are all able to go to Heaven if they had a real desire to change their ways for the Lord.

That is all very well. But in the book of revelations, it says that nothing unclean will enter heaven. If they have committed a sin before death then they are unclean.
That is why there is such a state as purgatory.

You said something about Baptism and purgatory in an earlier post, but I didn’t use it as a quote here, sorry. I wanted to say though, that I don’t believe that Baptism actually washes away sins.

1 Peter 3:18-21For Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the sake of the unrighteous, that he might lead you to God. Put to death in the flesh, he was brought to life in the spirit. In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison, who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God 7 for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

I do however believe that purgatory makes sense, but I still see no need for purgatory.

But there is a need because none of us die unblemished. We will choose to go through purgatory.
Here is an analogy. God has saved you and has now invited you to a banquet. And He waits for you at the door, and you come in filthy and smelly and you see that everyone in the dining room are all clean, beautifully attired and divine smelling. Now God is saying come in, and you prefer not to because you can see that you just do not fit in there. So you say I would like to get cleaned up first. God then takes you to this ante-room where you can get showered and changed and he has even got this beautiful clothing laid out for you to wear so that once refreshed, you will have no self-consciousness at joining the wedding party.

I also know that whether or not I believe in purgatory, really does not matter; my personal belief does not make it more or less real. So, if it’s real, that doesn’t mean I am going to Hell for not believing in the existence Purgatory.

That is true, you will not go to hell for not believing in purgatory. But our belief in purgatory is not just a personal one. It has a communal dimension to it. We can pray for the souls in purgatory. They cannot do anything to help themselves any more but we can. Out prayers and good deeds can help shorten their stay in purgatory. And we would want that shortened for our loved ones because the purging process involves pain.
For example, if you do not know that people have been languishing in a jail, then it would not matter if you helped them or not. But if you do know about them, then you can help them.
The communion of saints comprise of the us here on earth (Church Militant), those in pugatory (Church Suffering) and those in heaven (Church Triumphant). We are all one family. When one member of our family suffers, we suffer with them and want to help them.

Two things I want to comment/ask about this.

1: Mother would mean that Mary gave birth to or raised God. Mary raised Jesus, who was filled with God (through his Holy Spirit/one-in the same), but she didn’t actually give birth to God, because God is eternal. So, this doesn’t really make sense to me.

That is quite wrong. I am not sure if you have heard of a heresy called Nestorianism. What you are saying here is in fact Nestorian. The baby that Mary conceived and gave birth to IS GOD. You cannot split the humanity of Christ from His Divinity. Christ is both human and divine. Jesus did not change his nature from the time he was conceived to now as he reigns in heaven.
This is why the hypostatic union of Christ’s humanity and His divinity had to be defined very early on in Church history in the Council of Chalcedon.
Mary did not give birth to someone who was FILLED with God. Mary gave birth to God. The Jesus who was here on earth was God but He did not cling to His equality with God.
Also refer back to Elizabeth’s reference to Mary as the “the mother of my Lord”. For Jews the only Lord is God.

2: So, anybody who is in Heaven would be considered “Holy?” I do not believe this. I believe that God is the only “Holy” one. What then would separate God from those other humans in Heaven if they are all Holy? Doesn’t Holy mean perfect, I thought that God is the only perfect one.

People in Heaven are without sin, but they are still not perfect…at least that’s what I thought.

Well this is what Theosis or Deification means. When we get to heaven we become united with God. Our destiny is UNION with God. We cannot be united to God unless we are made Holy. As Jesus said, Be Holy as your Father in heaven is Holy. He would not make that command if it was something that is unattainable.

And yes, people in heaven are perfect. I think you believe in sanctification (that plays a major part in Protestant theology). Well the process of sanctification is the process of making us holy to prepare us for heaven. So once we get to heaven, then we are already completely sanctified, therefore holy.

 

[benedictus2]

Yes. I understamd this. When I chose the name “Christ imitator” I never meant to claim that I am ever going to live my life exactly as Jesus Christ did; but that I would imitate his actions and examples that he set for us in the Bible.
Such as his love for all people and his his forgiveness for people doing wrong against him; those are things that I want to live out in my life as well. I also understamd that there are plans that the Lord has for me in my life that are not the same as in Jesus’ life. But one thing is very similar. Ministring to a fallen world, full of several types of people that all need to hear the word of God.

That is very commendable. May God continue to fill you with His grace to keep on following His Son.

The fruits of the spirit are: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. I believe that once we become Christians, we recieve the Holy Spirit as a gift from God. And, if we do not see ourselves living out these things in our life, then we should question whether or not we’ve really asked the Lord into our life, or if we just recited some prayer that was told to us in sunday school. “If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the spirit,” Sure we all sin after we have been filled with the Holy Spirit; but we are more aware of sin, and we have a desire to repent of these sins, because we realize that those sinful things we do are wrong.

But the initiation process of becoming Christian is not by merely asking the Lord into our life. God had a very specific way in which this is to be done and this is through Baptism.

The rituals that I spoke of I believe are fine, but I don’t see why they should be necessary, or how they will help to bring us closer to God? Reading his word, praying and listening to him speak to us, through our pastor’s or priest’s messages, etc; are all thigns that I think can bring us closer to the Lord.

And no doubt these do bring us closer to God. But God gave us the sacraments. It was not man but God who instituted these sacraments. And the reason God did this is to show us that He is the one initiating the interaction here. And the graces we receive from these are not dependent on whether we feel good about it. The graces are intrinsic to them.
Although in an open and listening heart, it’s effects are even more magnified.

Those other things don’t seem of any importance to me; but that may be beacause I am not aware of their full meaning?

That would be correct. Once you realize what they truly mean and how much part they are of the whole economy of salvation then you will come to appreciation them.
I was quite religious when I was young but only now it seems are all these coming together for me. I have much more greater appreciation for the Church, it’s doctrines, it’s sacraments and its rituals.

You see we people with body and soul. We are one unified being and the rituals are expressions of this, of our deeper longing to connect with the diviine.

Or, that they are simply rituals and traditions that have been practiced by people for ever and passed down, hoping it would somehow help them?

Well not exactly. The rituals have echoes and are sometimes even very much grounded in Jewish traditions. Now these traditions are given by God to men. Notice how God was very specific in his instructions on how to build the ark of the covenant, what is to go inside the covenant, what the Jews should eat at passover time, how to slaughter and cook the lamb, and so forth and so on.
Now there are indeed cultural traditions that have sprouted as Christianity was spread to different countries and cultures. And these can be said to be traditions fo men. But even these, so long as they are not in opposition to the Gospel are helpful in the everyday following of our Lord.

Yes, I completly agree with you on this; I sort of typed it out wrong. I believe that we should be willing to give up all of our worldy possesions, but in reality, this never happens. There are always things people hold onto/things they aren’t willing to give up. Many times it’s things that we do not even think about, because it’s such a regual part of our life and we see nothing wrong with it.

I completely agree. When I was young, I thought I was pretty much given over to the will of God. And yet an incident told me just how wrong that was. My brother used one of my cassette tapes to tape one of his songs. It so happened that my cassettes were my most priced possessions. I was so upset and so angry with him that I said all sort of terrible words to him. All because of my possession - the cassette tapes.
I think one way of determining what matters most to you is to imagine that your house is burning and all your possessions are in it. Which one would you save if you only have a few minutes to do it and can take only very little with you.

 

[Christ_Imitator]

benedictus2, thank you very much for taking the time to answer all of my questions.
I’m not exactly sure if there are toomany that I can respond to, now that I understand how the Catholic Church views each of the things I mentioned. I would like to say that I will seriously conisder attending some sort of classes on Catholicism or at least attend some Catholic church services.

I have heard of a priest who prayed one Our Father through out the day. He would give an hour meditating on each verse.

I think that is very cool. I think more people should do this so that they can really understand the full meaning of such a short, yet meaningful prayer.
That is my biggest issue with the whole thing, when it becomes this prayer that we say just because we believe we have to, rather than actually thinking about what it all means.

Also, just found out Christ Imitator is only a 17 year old child, just in case anybody wants to address this individual as an adult, they absolutely are not.

I really do not understand people like you. I am always getting put down simply because I am not a “legal adult.” Usually, I am told that I am not allowed to have conversations about religion or politics until I am older. I was even one time given a link by some guy to visit some site where people discussed things such as video games and tv shows. I found that to be quite insulting. I believe I am capable of having at least a somewhat adult-like conversation. My level of intelligence is obviously not as high as the majority of people on here, because many are older than myself. However, I would appreciate it if people would be respectful and still be willing to converse with me even though I am not as old as everyone else. I appologize for my aditude before when I started to talk about my views and when I talked badly about the Catholic Church. :sad_yes:

 

[benedictus2]

benedictus2, thank you very much for taking the time to answer all of my questions.
I’m not exactly sure if there are toomany that I can respond to, now that I understand how the Catholic Church views each of the things I mentioned. I would like to say that I will seriously conisder attending some sort of classes on Catholicism or at least attend some Catholic church services.

The summit of our Christian life is the Eucharist, the Mass. If you are intending to attend this service it would help if you have a background on what goes on in the Mass. The Mass is based on the very much Biblical but to someone unitiated it might not seem to be so.

I will post a brief explanation of the Mass later.

I think that is very cool. I think more people should do this so that they can really understand the full meaning of such a short, yet meaningful prayer.
That is my biggest issue with the whole thing, when it becomes this prayer that we say just because we believe we have to, rather than actually thinking about what it all means.

Yes, the Our Father should be said slowly not just rattled off without thought.

Here are some excepts from Pope Benedict XVI’s book "Jesus of Nazareth"

“Normally , though precedes word; it seeks and formulates the word. But praying the psalms and liturgical prayer in general is exactly the other way around. The word, the voice, goes ahead of us and our minds must adapt to it. For on our own, we human being do not “know how to pray as we ought” (Rom 8:26) - we are too far removed from God, He is too mysterious and too great for us. And so God has come to our aid. He himself provides the words of our prayer and teaches us how to pray…
As Saint Cyprian says … when we pray the Our Father, Jesus’s promise regarding the true worshippers, those who adore the Father “in Spirit and Truth” (John 4:23) is fulfilled in us.”

OUR FATHER WHO ART IN HEAVEN

Reinhold Schneider write "The Our Father begins with a great consolation: we are are allowed to say Father. This one word contains the history of redemption. We are allowed to say “Father” because the Son was oru brother and has revealed the Father to us, because thanks to what Christ has done, we have once more become children of God.
…
The Our Father does not project a human image onto heaven, but shows us from heaven - from Jesus - what we as human beings can and should be like.

I am always getting put down simply because I am not a “legal adult.” Usually, I am told that I am not allowed to have conversations about religion or politics until I am older.

And that is quite sad. I am quite blessed to have been born in a family who took each other’s views seriously and debated religion and politics from when I was quite young. So I do feel for you in this case.

I was even one time given a link by some guy to visit some site where people discussed things such as video games and tv shows. I found that to be quite insulting. I believe I am capable of having at least a somewhat adult-like conversation. My level of intelligence is obviously not as high as the majority of people on here, because many are older than myself.

I think you are more than capable of engaging in adult conversation, not just adult-like conversation.
My niece is 16 and we have quite indepth conversations about life, politics and religion.

However, I would appreciate it if people would be respectful and still be willing to converse with me even though I am not as old as everyone else. I appologize for my aditude before when I started to talk about my views and when I talked badly about the Catholic Church.

I think you have shown quite considerable maturity in your posts {though not in your first salvo). I quite like the way you respond taking each point one at a time. So as far as I am concerned, you are an adult and I will respond to you same way as I would an octogenarian .