Answering "hate religion, love Jesus"

[Irish_Eyes_826]

I actually thought the idea was pretty cool, but the facts were way off for the most part. I definitely feel resentment towards the Church even though I love Jesus. But, alas, I know I can’t have one without the other.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Agreed it wasn’t life changing, and I hear you on wanting something deeper, but I often feel there is a compromise to be made somewhere.

Does anyone really think Jesus would have wanted a religion like the Catholic Church in it’s role today, with the gowns and garments, 1000 page catechism’s drawn out of fragments of Gospels etc.

Jesus created the Church and still guides it today!



The Catechism is not “drawn out of fragments of Gospels.”

 

[ESMDHokie77]

Promethius, I have run into the same video on my newsfeed!
My brief points on it were:
The guy makes some good points, but just goes back to bashing religion too much and throws the baby out with the bathwater: What would we know about Jesus without religion? He also presents a false dichotomy: (the Christian should believe that 1 religion is God-made, and the rest man-made). A spirituality free of religion wouldn’t have been able to pass on the Truth of Jesus and His divinity, define the belief in the Trinity, discern the books of the Bible, etc.​

I didn’t want to go very in depth on facebook, though my fingers were itching to do so.

I can not agree more with your responses.

Pax Christi,
Phil

 

[djforce888]

Agreed it wasn’t life changing, and I hear you on wanting something deeper, but I often feel there is a compromise to be made somewhere.

Does anyone really think Jesus would have wanted a religion like the Catholic Church in it’s role today, with the gowns and garments, 1000 page catechism’s drawn out of fragments of Gospels etc.

Considering that God is far greater than we can begin to imagine, I would say 1000 pages is still not even close to understanding his infinite wisdom

 

[nickybr38]

Well, there’s a video on youtube that’s making the rounds on facebook among evangelical Christians, called Why I Hate Religion, But Love Jesus.

After seeing the link several times, I had to check it out, and then I had to respond. I’m copying my response here in case any others would like to paraphrase a bit (for reposting on facebook if YOU see it too!) or expand on the argument for me!

BEGIN MY RESPONSE:

Interesting rhymes, but I have these few things to say:

1. It is impossible to hate religion for the christian: Religion is literally defined as “the service and worship of God or the supernatural” and “commitment and devotion to faith and… observance”… to say I hate religion is to say “I hate the service and worship of God”… not correct. What he means to say is that he hates legalism.
2. He’s all assertion and no arguments, as a specific example he states that “religion says do, Jesus says it is finished”, but those two statements are not incompatible. If they were, then Christ would not tell us:
   – Confess your sins to one another
   – Those who are not born again of the water and the spirit will have no life
   – We must eat the Body and drink the Blood of the Lamb… specifically HIS Body and Blood
   – That not one “jott or tittle” of the law will pass away until the end of time
   – In fact he’s MORE restrictive than the Jews, because Jesus applies the divine law not only to actions, but to thoughts as well.

We have to also consider the consistancy error: Judaism was a covenential, sacramental faith system. Yes, it got lost in legalism along the way (the false idea that an external checklist of behaviors is sufficient for salvation as opposed to the idea of intrinsic righteousness such as Christ demands)… but the bottom line is this: God designed a covenential, sacramental religion for His chosen people… and God’s design today is LIKEWISE for a covenential, sacramental faith (unless, of course, we want to assert that God was WRONG in forming Judaism, but a God who is wrong really isn’t much of a God…)

1. Finally, factual errors:
   – Religion has been the PRETEXT for many wars, but the reality is that many “religious” wars were landgrabs by greedy nobles, expansions of aggressive empires for monetary purposes, etc.
   – While religion builds huge churches, it does not fail to feed the poor. The single, largest charity organization in the wordl is the Catholic Church, and when all Catholic Charities are combined, the US Government fails to provide as much for the poor… and when religious charity is all combined… well, it’s monumental (This of course, ignores the rebuking Jesus gives the disciples for saying something similar about the woman who annointed His feet… if God is King, He deserves a respectable building to represent Him).
   – There is no church I’m aware of which teaches that God does not love anyone (okay, westborro baptist lunatics aside, no mainstream denomination)

Aaaaand one final note: sourcing. The line “Church is a hospital for sinners and not a museum for saints” is a line that Abigail van Buren (writer of Dear Abby) paraphrased from St John Chrysostom (“Enter into the Church and wash away your sins. For there is a hospital for sinners and not a court of law.”), who himself had taken it from St Ignatius of Antioch, who had said: “so that ye obey the bishop and the presbytery with an undivided mind, breaking one and the same bread, which is the medicine of immortality, and the antidote to prevent us from dying”… that’s a catholic line of thought

My sister and I have tackled this video. A mutual friend of ours posted it this morning. It’s turned into quite the discussion.

Misguided or not I think this video is a great opportunity for us Catholics to speak truth!!!

 

[fgh_123]

Considering that God is far greater than we can begin to imagine, I would say 1000 pages is still not even close to understanding his infinite wisdom

Indeed. The whole idea of a relationship between God is ineffable. Hell even just to comprehend the idea of God, let alone his love for us can’t be expressed adequately in words. Even I find myself having to present my ideas on the nature of God’s love in poems, songs and indeed actions, as I’m unable to describe them in normal sentences.

However I do feel that it’s an intensely personal relationship, like a father and son, and thus is personal in the nuances, akin to the way you imperceptibly to others maybe treat people special to you differently.

I think there is definitely a role for the Church, all things need to be built on stone, but I do feel it should be more of a guiding influence rather than a directing one. Something that I definitely feel it oversteps on.

 

[Havard]

youtube.com/watch?v=1IAhDGYlpqY

Interesting video…

What the… this is now the fourth thread I’ve seen about this video in the past 2 days, all in different sections of CAF.

Spirituality:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=634034

Back Fence:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=634006

Back Fence II

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=633935

I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn’t know of the other threads, but you should be aware that discussions should be limited to their appropriate sections, not carried on all over CAF.

I’m reporting all four threads to the moderators (not you, OP, just the threads) so that they may be combined. There is always the offhand chance that this is a stunt to generate a larger audience and/or controversy.

 

[fbl9]

Agreed it wasn’t life changing, and I hear you on wanting something deeper, but I often feel there is a compromise to be made somewhere.

Does anyone really think Jesus would have wanted a religion like the Catholic Church in it’s role today, with the gowns and garments, 1000 page catechism’s drawn out of fragments of Gospels etc.

Jesus wore an one peice gown you fault Him for that too?
What do you think the Church’s role has changed from the time it started to today?
mom; don’t touch the stove
child; but why?
mom you’ll get burnt
child; how?
mom; because it’s hot
child; what’s burnt, why does hot burn?
there you go part of the reason the catechism is so long.

 

[fgh_123]

What the… this is now the fourth thread I’ve seen about this video in the past 2 days, all in different sections of CAF.

Spirituality:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=634034

Back Fence:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=634006

Back Fence II

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=633935

I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn’t know of the other threads, but you should be aware that discussions should be limited to their appropriate sections, not carried on all over CAF.

I’m reporting all four threads to the moderators (not you, OP, just the threads) so that they may be combined. There is always the offhand chance that this is a stunt to generate a larger audience and/or controversy.

Haha, apologies. Literally just had this posted on my Catholic societies feed on Facebook and thought it worthy of a chat. Sorry if I’ve buggered things up.

Jesus wore an one peice gown you fault Him for that too?
What do you think the Church’s role has changed from the time it started to today?
mom; don’t touch the stove
child; but why?
mom you’ll get burnt
child; how?
mom; because it’s hot
child; what’s burnt, why does hot burn?
there you go part of the reason the catechism is so long.

I can’t find fault with Jesus, not sure what your point is.

As for the next bit, I understand the role of it, but again, by the way the Church exerts her authority (even more so in the past), it tends to take the pastoral care from being care and nurture to being directives.

 

[knotanes]

I have to laugh a little. My atheist friend (one I’ve been keeping at a distance) sent this out.

My honest thought? “Well, at least she’s made it this far…” I guess she’s stopped with atheism and now considering Eastern religions.

Again, I say, it’s a start. Maybe if someone sees the video it will spark curiosity and maybe that curiosity will lead to more curiosity until one day they arrive at the doorstep of the local Catholic Church looking to join the RCIA class

Stranger things have happened.

So, in that sense, I’ll say, “At least it’s better than more drivel from Dawkins.”

But, I think the video is very ignorant and ill-informed–to say the least.

Ironically, this is the most positive thing about religion my friend has every openly endorsed.

 

[Havard]

Haha, apologies. Literally just had this posted on my Catholic societies feed on Facebook and thought it worthy of a chat. Sorry if I’ve buggered things up.

No worries, it’s just best that things be brought together in one thread. Especially when it’s relating to media, where multiple threads end up translating into promotion of said media, whether intentionally or unintentionally.

 

[fbl9]

I can’t find fault with Jesus, not sure what your point is.

As for the next bit, I understand the role of it, but again, by the way the Church exerts her authority (even more so in the past), it tends to take the pastoral care from being care and nurture to being directives.

Then what is your issue with the vestments?
The doctrines are directives, the keeping of the same mind for all beleivers is the Church’s responsibility.Sometimes an iron rod is needed other times it is not.

 

[anp1215]

This video keeps popping up on my newsfeed but I haven’t even bothered to watch it because of the stupid title. Christianity IS a religion. duh.

 

[Michael_Francis]

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
**Merged all **5 threads on same topic and moved to Apologetics for discussion.

 

[JohnMPhilomena]

John 15:18 - If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Considering that God is far greater than we can begin to imagine, I would say 1000 pages is still not even close to understanding his infinite wisdom

We’re not trying to capture the totality of God, just the totality of revelation

 

[bmullins]

I really liked it, I think he makes some great points about living our faith rather than hiding behind the façade of organised religion.

Jesus did come to turn things on their head, He did teach that the Law was unattainable and instituted to remind us of our imperfection and sinfulness. He did criticise the Pharisees, the legalistic religious institution.

However I don’t think that Jesus came to abolish religion and He most certainly was a good, faithful and observant Jew.

One of the main themes of Vatican II was a return to the Christocentric root of our faith, that’s the message I get from this video.

Jesus didn’t critcize the ‘religious institution.’ Notice when he condemned the pharisees he reminded the Jews to follow what they said, not what they do. He never told us not to have religion, he said not to have ‘hollow’ tradition. He said specifically “do what they say, not what they do.” All too many ignore that part of the story, and say Jesus condemned the religion and said not to follow it. He rather affirmed they were supposed to follow the tradition established by the pharisees, but not to be hypocrites like them.

So we see that as the New Israel, established in the 12 apostles, that Jesus has already told us to follow what the seat of the established religion says, and not to be hypocrites about it. Even if our priest is a hypocrite, we are to be orthodox AND orthoprax.

 

[Church_Militant]

Considering that God is far greater than we can begin to imagine, I would say 1000 pages is still not even close to understanding his infinite wisdom

Lemme know when ya get there and good luck with that since Solomon had a lot to say about that and his wisdom…the greatest in history (aside from Our Lord of course) was a direct gift from God.

A couple of quotes from Bishop Sheen came to mind.

“Few people in America hate the Catholic religion,
but there are many who hate
what they mistakenly believe is the Catholic religion
—and if what they hate really were the Catholic religion,
Catholics would hate it too.”

** I am not fighting for a freedom that means the right to do whatever I please but for a freedom that means the right to do whatever I ought. Oughtness implies law; Law implies Intelligence; and Intelligence implies God.**

There’s a lot wrong with that dude’s video.

We had the same sort of sentiment expressed by young people back in the 60s when some churches wouldn’t let hippie dressed or shabbily dressed poor people into services. It made people think…

He doesn’t seem to know his Bible very well and a lot of his remarks are his opinion and interpretation of events and disconnected scriptures. Jesus never expressed hatred for religion, nor did God in the Old Testament. Both, however did disdain and condemn hypocrisy in the community of faith, which is another matter entirely.

His crack about building churches and not feeding the poor is hogwash to us Catholics who have built more schools, hospitals, and done more for the poor than all others combined IMO. Catholic Relief Services record is the best example as well as Peter’s Pence. Everyone can always do more…especially us Americans.

James 1:21] Therefore put away all filthiness and rank growth of wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.
22] But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
23] For if any one is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who observes his natural face in a mirror;
24] for he observes himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like.
25] But he who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer that forgets but a doer that acts, he shall be blessed in his doing.
26] If any one thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this man’s religion is vain.
27] Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

His definition is also fallacious since Religion is man’s response to God…not necessarily his search for same. (Romans chapter 1 covers that pretty well I think)

 

[Kristin234]

If I may say, don’t you think that these people are dangerously on the border of idolizing Jesus and in my perception, somewhat disregarding God, himself ? It’s to the point they might just infact make a faith called “Jesus-ism”.

Idolizing Jesus? Wait, so idolizing our Lord and Savior is a bad thing? That is absurd.

By the way you wrote that you make it sound like Jesus and God are two different persons, and that they aren’t to be worshiped the same.

Jesus Christ is God himself. We are to worship God. I call it worship, but even if you call it idolizing how is that bad if he is idolizing GOD and no one else?

About the “Jesus-ism,” so I should not call myself a CHRISTian because it means that I am disregarding God and focused on Christ even though I believe that Jesus Christ is God so it is okay to focus on Him

Idolizing is defined as worshiping, to love, and to admire. There is nothing wrong with idolizing Jesus who is not just a man I am worshiping but my God.

 

[brikar]

About vestments sites.google.com/site/apostolicapologetics/sacred-tradition/vestments

Agreed it wasn’t life changing, and I hear you on wanting something deeper, but I often feel there is a compromise to be made somewhere.

Does anyone really think Jesus would have wanted a religion like the Catholic Church in it’s role today, with the gowns and garments, 1000 page catechism’s drawn out of fragments of Gospels etc.