Answering Problems about Hell

[camerong]

In a related thread I asked if Catholic theology allowed for an empty hell. The clear answer, as I suspected, is no, but hell could be sparsely populated. Fair enough.

My next question is this… I still have intense reservations about the idea of hell. I can identify these reservations thusly:

1. I cannot imagine a person would deserve eternal suffering. And when I try to conjure such a person up in my mind, much of their badness results from factors outside of their control, such as a poor upbringing or natural temperament. If a lack of faith is the problem, it probably never occurs to a vast number of people to be faithful. If a lack of works is the problem, it probably never occurs to a vast number of people that they ought to do good works. And there are a vast number of people who are neither faithful nor particularly charitable but otherwise not rotten.
2. If, in heaven, I will know that others are in hell, won’t I be sad as long as they are suffering, which is apparently eternally? How can we feast in heaven knowing that others are in such a miserable situation?
3. Would it not be better for, say, those who reject God to be put in purgatory forever, with the option of coming up to heaven? Such a situation is roughly imagined in C.S. Lewis’ The Great Divorce. In that situation, human choice would remain.
4. For some reason, I am having particular trouble at the idea that praying for souls in hell would be useless. I suppose this is a reaction at the utter hopelessness of such a disposition?

At any rate, I would love intelligent responses. Please do not merely quote teachings or verses showing that hell does, in fact, exist, as that is not my question and was well-disposed of in my other thread. Thanks!

—I realized after posting that that I was in Moral Theology and not Apologetics, I apologize to the moderator who will move my post—

 

[flyingfish]

In a related thread I asked if Catholic theology allowed for an empty hell. The clear answer, as I suspected, is no, but hell could be sparsely populated. Fair enough.

Why not? Hell could be populated with Satan and other demons. Why is it necessary for there to be a single person in it?

I think you can be okay with hell if you imagine it being a place not unlike earth (maybe even better than earth in terms of the quality of life there), but for people who truly do not want to go to heaven.

It could be possible for example that someone really nasty like Hitler would be punished for some time to pay for his sins (maybe he’d have to live through the life of every Jew who was murdered as a result of his actions and feel their pain), and then set loose into the earth-like hell.

 

[bpaynter]

Why not? Hell could be populated with Satan and other demons. Why is it necessary for there to be a single person in it?

I think you can be okay with hell if you imagine it being a place not unlike earth (maybe even better than earth in terms of the quality of life there), but for people who truly do not want to go to heaven.

It could be possible for example that someone really nasty like Hitler would be punished for some time to pay for his sins (maybe he’d have to live through the life of every Jew who was murdered as a result of his actions and feel their pain), and then set loose into the earth-like hell.

Time for me to trot out my favourite belief about Hell. It is not a place, neither is Purgatory, but the fire of Hell is the experience of God’s Love by those who finally refuse it and the flames of Purgatory are the experience of God’s Love by those getting used to it. The saints bask in it. This concept is touched on somewhere in C.S.Lewis (Screwtape, I think), and somewhere else by St Isaac of Syria.

 

[presidentjlh]

Technically, it is indeed possible that only Satan and his fellow idiotic fallen angels are in Hell, which would give me nothing but intense joy, both at the fact that all of humanity will enjoy eternal happiness and the fact that Satan not only miserably failed like he was supposed to, but so utterly, completely, and thoroughly miserably failed that one could not fail anymore than that, even if they were to miss every single question on every single test, assignment, or questionnare they’ve taken and were nothing but clumsy, foolish, and silly. Although I do hold sympathy for people in Hell, I hold absolutely no sympathy whatsoever for Satan. He actually had Heaven, yet he rejected that!

However, I can’t say that’s the likely scenario either. Although I do subscribe to the belief that Hell is much emptier than it would seem, I still can’t get over the fact that there are people who willingly choose evil with the full knowledge of their evil and yet they still could care less. This is where I come to the opinion that Hell is not devoid of any human souls. Also, I come to the opinion that since people willingly refuse God’s love, it is most likely that Hell is not the Hell akin to flyingfish’s Earth-like, pleasant Hell, that completely misses the point of damnation, but of the traditional “hot, fiery, torture land” Hell similar to the Hell that was so vividly described in that great work Inferno.

As I have stated often in the past, I do believe that the vast majority of people on Earth are in complete, honest ignorance of their actions, due to being spoonfed falsehoods by people who were spoonfed falsehoods. While of course this means there was definitely a point where there was a generation that knowingly strayed from the path, I am not inclined to blame a peer who has been raised in a culture that constantly bombards him with sexual promiscuity, alcohol, and disrespect.

The biggest problems with Hell for me are the ones you have shared. It is very difficult for me to see how a lifetime of varying degrees of evil (roughly 80 years) deserves an infinite period of pain that is worse than can be imagined. However, of course the idea that “people choose Hell, God doesn’t condemn them” is brought up.

So this resolves that dilemma for me, but it brings up another. “While it is without a doubt true, why would most people choose Hell?” This goes to that idea of ignorance: If someone was in full knowledge of the faith, this usually implies they are Catholic to begin with and were seeking such information, usually out of a wish to become devout. So, again, this leads me to believe that most people go to Heaven or, more likely, Purgatory out of ignorance.

But then the idea of Heaven being less enjoyable knowing others are suffering comes up. We are always called to be charitable and are moved to pity by suffering. This creates issues for me, as if Heaven is supposed to be pure joy, how is it that I can enjoy such knowing that others are suffering? I put my trust in the Church that these issues will be resolved when I die, but, nonetheless, it is difficult for me.

I know this doesn’t answer all your questions, and I do have more answers, but I have something I need to attend to.

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

I’ll try address these one at a time.

1. I cannot imagine a person would deserve eternal suffering. And when I try to conjure such a person up in my mind, much of their badness results from factors outside of their control, such as a poor upbringing or natural temperament. If a lack of faith is the problem, it probably never occurs to a vast number of people to be faithful. If a lack of works is the problem, it probably never occurs to a vast number of people that they ought to do good works. And there are a vast number of people who are neither faithful nor particularly charitable but otherwise not rotten.

I can understand your belief in this. I used to think similarly, but had to abandon it. Sin is ugly. Sin is the worst thing we could ever conjure up, and it causes such pain and irreparable suffering. Everything in our world that is harmful is a result of sin. And we can see how seriously God takes sin by the crucifixion. If only one person sinned only once (say, told a little white lie) then the crucifixion still would have taken place. Sin is that dispicable in the eyes of God. It is the utter and willful destruction of his beloved. Us. God is loving and kind, but he is also just. So while our little “harmless” sins don’t seem bad enough for us to deserve punishment, it was certainly bad enough for the son of God to endure one of the most painful deaths mankind has ever thought of.

The truth is, we all deserve hell. Every one of us. This is why we read the crowd parts at good friday mass. When we choose sin over God, we sentenced Jesus to die on that cross. Each sin is a cry of “crucify him!” We are to have joy that we are saved from our sins, but we should remember the grave matter that is sin, and how ONLY CHRIST can save us from it. We can’t earn heaven, and to think that we can is a one-way ticket to rejection of Christ’s sacrifice.

1. If, in heaven, I will know that others are in hell, won’t I be sad as long as they are suffering, which is apparently eternally? How can we feast in heaven knowing that others are in such a miserable situation?

I honestly can’t answer this. Most, if not all of my family, save for my husband and his family do not serve the Lord. I can’t imagine how I can experience all the joys of heaven knowing that so many of my closest friends and family are not with me, and I will never be reunited with them. Is it possible that God will work somethingout for them? I don’t know. Scripture seems to indicate otherwise, and Christ tells us that we are to love him more than our families anyway. I take this as insentive to preach the gospel to my friends and family in ways they can accept. I won’t shove it down their throats or belittle them. Rather, I live by this quote:

“Preach the gospel at all times. When necessary, use words.”

1. Would it not be better for, say, those who reject God to be put in purgatory forever, with the option of coming up to heaven? Such a situation is roughly imagined in C.S. Lewis’ The Great Divorce. In that situation, human choice would remain.

I think that the real torture of Hell is the knowledge of the rejection of God and true love. I can’t imagine that the real torment of hell is physical, but rather mentally. Thus, any physical place they are is irrelevent.

1. For some reason, I am having particular trouble at the idea that praying for souls in hell would be useless. I suppose this is a reaction at the utter hopelessness of such a disposition?

I don’t know what Catholic teaching is, but I don’t think people are in hell right now. It seems (to me at least) that those who died outside of the friendship of God, will be resurrected at the last day and judged then. Hence, hell is empty right now. Not to mention that the people who are in hell are there of their own free will. They have chosen the torment of hell over the love of God.

 

[presidentjlh]

I don’t know what Catholic teaching is, but I don’t think people are in hell right now. It seems (to me at least) that those who died outside of the friendship of God, will be resurrected at the last day and judged then.

According to Catholic teaching, one goes to either Heaven, Purgatory, or Hell when they die.

(I’m paraphrasing the Catechism here) “If one dies in a state of mortal sin, one’s soul descends into Hell.” No waiting is described.

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

According to Catholic teaching, one goes to either Heaven, Purgatory, or Hell when they die.

(I’m paraphrasing the Catechism here) “If one dies in a state of mortal sin, one’s soul descends into Hell.” No waiting is described.

Ah okay. Thanks for correcting that!

 

[hellopeople]

In a related thread I asked if Catholic theology allowed for an empty hell. The clear answer, as I suspected, is no, but hell could be sparsely populated. Fair enough.

My next question is this… I still have intense reservations about the idea of hell. I can identify these reservations thusly:

1. I cannot imagine a person would deserve eternal suffering. And when I try to conjure such a person up in my mind, much of their badness results from factors outside of their control, such as a poor upbringing or natural temperament. If a lack of faith is the problem, it probably never occurs to a vast number of people to be faithful. If a lack of works is the problem, it probably never occurs to a vast number of people that they ought to do good works. And there are a vast number of people who are neither faithful nor particularly charitable but otherwise not rotten.
2. If, in heaven, I will know that others are in hell, won’t I be sad as long as they are suffering, which is apparently eternally? How can we feast in heaven knowing that others are in such a miserable situation?
3. Would it not be better for, say, those who reject God to be put in purgatory forever, with the option of coming up to heaven? Such a situation is roughly imagined in C.S. Lewis’ The Great Divorce. In that situation, human choice would remain.
4. For some reason, I am having particular trouble at the idea that praying for souls in hell would be useless. I suppose this is a reaction at the utter hopelessness of such a disposition?

At any rate, I would love intelligent responses. Please do not merely quote teachings or verses showing that hell does, in fact, exist, as that is not my question and was well-disposed of in my other thread. Thanks!

—I realized after posting that that I was in Moral Theology and not Apologetics, I apologize to the moderator who will move my post—

These are some of the reasons I don’t believe in hell, or the devil for that matter. Theologically, it doesn’t really link up with a kind and loving God. I don’t really see how eternal damnation (especially when some people on this board would say masturbating and then getting hit by a bus without confessing would land you in hell for eternity) is really a just punishment for ANYTHING. Even Hitler or people that were just pure evil are like that because of their upbringing (as you said) and their delusions about how the world really works. I just don’t think that any sin or amount of sin is worthy of eternal damnation…unless God is not as loving, forgiving, and good as people say that He is. That is my opinion at least.

 

[hellopeople]

I honestly can’t answer this. Most, if not all of my family, save for my husband and his family do not serve the Lord. I can’t imagine how I can experience all the joys of heaven knowing that so many of my closest friends and family are not with me, and I will never be reunited with them.

God chooses who is in hell…not you. Don’t speculate that your deceased loved ones are in hell, or people you know now will go to hell when they die. It really gives off a “holier than thou” attitude and is completely unnecessary.

 

[presidentjlh]

God chooses who is in hell…not you. Don’t speculate that your deceased loved ones are in hell, or people you know now will go to hell when they die. It really gives off a “holier than thou” attitude and is completely unnecessary.

Ah, but God doesn’t desire any of us to go to Hell, we choose it for ourselves.

However, it is true, we are not to speculate who is in Hell.

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

These are some of the reasons I don’t believe in hell, or the devil for that matter. Theologically, it doesn’t really link up with a kind and loving God. I don’t really see how eternal damnation (especially when some people on this board would say masturbating and then getting hit by a bus without confessing would land you in hell for eternity) is really a just punishment for ANYTHING. Even Hitler or people that were just pure evil are like that because of their upbringing (as you said) and their delusions about how the world really works. I just don’t think that any sin or amount of sin is worthy of eternal damnation…unless God is not as loving, forgiving, and good as people say that He is. That is my opinion at least.

Nope. I don’t buy the “it’s their upbringing” for one measly second. According to my upbringing the best I could hope for was to be a prostitute strung out on drugs in an alley somewhere. I even started to go down that path (hanging out with the wrong crowd, looking for negative attention from men) and then I stopped DEAD in my tracks and adamantly refused to let my past dictate my future. All these people have the same choice here.How could I do this? I gave the reins over to God, and started living for him, NOT me. This is the same choice presented to everyone. People choose their own hell when they choose to reject God.

As to the loving God not allowing hell. God is also just. Any and all sins we commit are introducing evil into our world and destroying God’s beloved. He loves us more than any parent even loves their children. Can you imagine someone not taking justice for the destruction of their child? Even if it were by another child?

Too often I feel like we all get hung up of “God is loving:” and forget that God is also just. We can’t pick and choose which aspects of God we want him to be. Yes, he is all-loving, that is why he sent Jesus to die. He did this to allow us the chance to try and escape our sins, seek forgiveness, and seek God. He gave us an option to choose, he didn’t give us all a “get out of jail free card” regardless of how we conduct ourselves.

And honestly, the person who said that God will send someone to hell for masturbating and getting hit by a bus before they confess seems to be rather hung up on legaliztic prattle that goes against the very nature of mercy.

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

God chooses who is in hell…not you. Don’t speculate that your deceased loved ones are in hell, or people you know now will go to hell when they die. It really gives off a “holier than thou” attitude and is completely unnecessary.

You misread my post. I am sorry I was not more clear. The idea that I can’t know whether or not I will see them but since it seems likely that they have rejected God and separation seems likely, it creates sorrow for me and my husband.

You didn’t need to be so judgemental in your statement either. If you seek to end judgement, don’t judge others.

 

[NewsTheMan]

These are good questions!

I still struggle with knowing that there are people out there living the life and doing whatever they please but if they confess at the last minute, and here I am trying my hardest, our reward will most likely be the same (heaven).

 

[presidentjlh]

These are good questions!

I still struggle with knowing that there are people out there living the life and doing whatever they please but if they confess at the last minute, and here I am trying my hardest, our reward will most likely be the same (heaven).

I don’t know, I’m alright with it. I don’t want anyone to not share in the same joys of heaven as me.

Additionally, you’re forgetting the concept of Purgatory.

 

[hellopeople]

Nope. I don’t buy the “it’s their upbringing” for one measly second. According to my upbringing the best I could hope for was to be a prostitute strung out on drugs in an alley somewhere. I even started to go down that path (hanging out with the wrong crowd, looking for negative attention from men) and then I stopped DEAD in my tracks and adamantly refused to let my past dictate my future. All these people have the same choice here.How could I do this? I gave the reins over to God, and started living for him, NOT me. This is the same choice presented to everyone. People choose their own hell when they choose to reject God.

As to the loving God not allowing hell. God is also just. Any and all sins we commit are introducing evil into our world and destroying God’s beloved. He loves us more than any parent even loves their children. Can you imagine someone not taking justice for the destruction of their child? Even if it were by another child?

Too often I feel like we all get hung up of “God is loving:” and forget that God is also just. We can’t pick and choose which aspects of God we want him to be. Yes, he is all-loving, that is why he sent Jesus to die. He did this to allow us the chance to try and escape our sins, seek forgiveness, and seek God. He gave us an option to choose, he didn’t give us all a “get out of jail free card” regardless of how we conduct ourselves.

And honestly, the person who said that God will send someone to hell for masturbating and getting hit by a bus before they confess seems to be rather hung up on legaliztic prattle that goes against the very nature of mercy.

What I am saying is that no crime in this world could ever be bad enough to spend eternity in unthinkable pain. That ISN’T just IMO. I have a son. He could do the worst things imaginable, but I would NEVER EVER want him to spend eternity suffering. But God is more loving than me, right? So how does that work?

 

[hellopeople]

Ah, but God doesn’t desire any of us to go to Hell, we choose it for ourselves.

However, it is true, we are not to speculate who is in Hell.

The only way that we choose hell for ourselves is if we get to the pearly gates and God says “do you want to go to heaven or hell”…and then the person chooses hell. Otherwise, we don’t choose hell. You could say that living a life of sin is like choosing hell, but no one really knows what gets people to hell. Do you really think that if people knew the gravity of the situation, and knew exactly what would send them to hell, and knew how bad it would be, people would be doing these things? Only a tiny percent of them I would imagine. For all we know not being Muslim could send us to hell. No one knows for sure. So no one really chooses hell unless God gives them the choice after they die…otherwise it really isn’t a choice.

Let me make an analogy…Imagine you lived somewhere that didn’t allow its citizens to know the laws of the land. Someone thinks they are following the laws because they don’t know, and they end up getting arrested and thrown in jail for life for something they didn’t even know they were doing. The person might have known that they were doing wrong, but they didn’t know it was against the law…and the person had heard that people got arrested, but didn’t believe it and thought it was a myth. Is that fair? The analogy isn’t great, but do you see what I am saying?

 

[hellopeople]

These are good questions!

I still struggle with knowing that there are people out there living the life and doing whatever they please but if they confess at the last minute, and here I am trying my hardest, our reward will most likely be the same (heaven).

You should enjoy being a good person, not think of it as something you must do just to go to heaven. If I were you I would rethink my view of life.

 

[Willy_Jose]

1) I cannot imagine a person would deserve eternal suffering. And when I try to conjure such a person up in my mind, much of their badness results from factors outside of their control, such as a poor upbringing or natural temperament. If a lack of faith is the problem, it probably never occurs to a vast number of people to be faithful. If a lack of works is the problem, it probably never occurs to a vast number of people that they ought to do good works. And there are a vast number of people who are neither faithful nor particularly charitable but otherwise not rotten.

Our concept of hell is “eternal suffering” from a human point of view. However, the Magisterium never explicitly describes the conditions in hell, our imagination (derived from earthly suffering) just suggests to us it must be constant and non-stop agony. Is it? No one here on earth knows the actual conditions in hell (except surely God and those who are already there) in as much as no one knows the actual conditions in heaven. There could be varying stages in hell, inasmuch as there could be varying stages in heaven. We only know it is eternal but beyond that - nothing much really. We must rethink our earthly concepts of divine justice. If we can imagine this, then we can probably imagine “eternal suffering” outside our normal perceptions. As in thinking, try imagining out of the box.

2) If, in heaven, I will know that others are in hell, won’t I be sad as long as they are suffering, which is apparently eternally? How can we feast in heaven knowing that others are in such a miserable situation?

If you look of it that way, yes our joy will not be complete in heaven knowing that other people suffer at the same time in hell. However, your premise is anchored on the awareness that other people are in hell and you know their type of suffering. If you remove or revise that premise (use your imagination), you might not entertain the idea of being sad in heaven.

3) Would it not be better for, say, those who reject God to be put in purgatory forever, with the option of coming up to heaven? Such a situation is roughly imagined in C.S. Lewis’ The Great Divorce. In that situation, human choice would remain.

Human choice would be restricted here on earth and after that, God’s justice prevails. We must bear in mind that we all have our human concepts of “justice”, and humans don’t even agree for the most part.

4) For some reason, I am having particular trouble at the idea that praying for souls in hell would be useless. I suppose this is a reaction at the utter hopelessness of such a disposition?

In the first place, we would have particular trouble knowing who would be in hell. Suppose we pray for our dear departed, that we assume to be in purgatory but is actually in hell, would that be ‘useless’? I say not, as such act would be an act of charity pleasing to God - it may give merit to us it that will not lift the soul from hell to heaven. In that sense praying for the dead is not useless. If you pray with the particular intention for the souls in hell, then that would not be praying but challenging God’s justice. Again we should not be confined to our earthly concepts of hell and justice. His thoughts are not our thoughts.
/

 

[flyingfish]

The only way that we choose hell for ourselves is if we get to the pearly gates and God says “do you want to go to heaven or hell”…and then the person chooses hell. Otherwise, we don’t choose hell. You could say that living a life of sin is like choosing hell, but no one really knows what gets people to hell. Do you really think that if people knew the gravity of the situation, and knew exactly what would send them to hell, and knew how bad it would be, people would be doing these things? Only a tiny percent of them I would imagine. For all we know not being Muslim could send us to hell. No one knows for sure. So no one really chooses hell unless God gives them the choice after they die…otherwise it really isn’t a choice.

This. If the >95% of Catholics who use artificial contraception truly believed it was going to send them to eternal torture, they wouldn’t use it.

Can’t imagine anyone except some sick masochist would actually choose eternal torture.

 

[camerong]

Thinking about it, whether hell is a choice or not, it may have been unjust to create souls that would choose hell. This typically leads to the response that we cannot know that it would be better for people to have never been born, because we can’t compare nothingness with even a bad existence, as they share nothing in common. However, in this instance, Christ actually says it would have been better for Judas to have never been born. So isn’t Christ admitting that Judas’ existence, which God knew would lead to hell, is worse than never haven been created? In which case, isn’t it true that God should never have created him at all? This is the problem I have with sin leading us to hell. If God knows certain people will end up in hell, shouldn’t He have never created them at all?

Honestly, I’m beginning to think that (nearly) universal salvation is the only rational way to view this. At least I would not be the only one. Look at Karl Rahner, a very influential Catholic theologian:

Karl Rahner, another representative of the more liberal trend, holds for the possibility that no one ever goes to hell. We have no clear revelation, he says, to the effect that some are actually lost. The discourses of Jesus on the subject appear to be admonitory rather than predictive. Their aim is to persuade his hearers to pursue the better and safer path by alerting them to the danger of eternal perdition. While allowing for the real possibility of eternal damnation, says Rahner, we must simultaneously maintain “the truth of the omnipotence of the universal salvific will of God, the redemption of all by Christ, the duty of men to hope for salvation.” Rahner therefore believes that universal salvation is a possibility.