Answering Problems about Hell

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=Zoe Brain;6532696]My Idea of Hell - a place where I’d be comfortable, and know that others are enduring eternal torment.
My idea of Heaven - a place where I can make restitution for all the unkindness I’ve shown others, Not just repentance, but restitution, making it all better. And a place where I could give solace to those suffering. A place to work off my sins.
I wouldn’t be happy until the last damned soul has gained forgiveness. Then I can maybe start making amends for my own sins. Start with the sin of Pride, putting my own judgement before the Almighty’s. I’m a very imperfect creature, but I wouldn’t run a private torture chamber for punishment, rather than a penitentiary. I couldn’t respect any being who does.
As an aside, my religious philosophy can be summed up as follows: I’m an agnostic, with only a tendency to commit Buddhism. I try to follow the example of Guan Yin, and the four Zen vows of the Bodhisattva.
In my own words:
The core of Christian teaching is “Love God: Be Kind”. In my philosophy, by doing the second, the first becomes either irrelevant, or an inescapable consequence.
And while a single person is drowning, how can one leave the pool?
That is a Buddhist tale of one of the Boddhisatvas - Buddhist Saints - who volunteer to forego Heaven while there are those who still need help. Miao Shian is an avatar of Guan Yin/Kannon , Boddhisatva of Compassion. The similarity with the Christian tale is obvious, though there’s the whole “Son of God” thing there as well. Something I do not believe.
So my place is in Hell. I cannot believe that I wouldn’t be allowed to help others there, and by doing this while suffering the same torments they do, help make amends for my own sins.
Another I know more and I know better:shrug:

This may come as a surprise; but you’re opinion only counts in this life. It’s eternal life you need to focus on and the way you’re heading you’ll have lots of time and plenty of firelight to figure it out.
 
=Zatzat;6537994]If it’s my choice, then I’ll just choose to hang out in heaven or hell, depending on my mood. Ifr I can’t make that choice, it doesn’t seem like much of a choice now does it.
When I choose to go on vacation, I don’t stay in the same vacation spot for the rest of my life…heaven / hell should be the same way, if it’s really a choice.
From you’re lips to God’s ears friend.

Make cute remarks now. God gives each of us Spiritual Gifts so that we MIGHT [our choice] know love and serve God.

Quantify for us you’r freewill: how tall, wide,deep, is it? What shape and color is it? You can’t because thet can be proven to exist by you’re making fun of God; but can’t explian how you got them EXCEPT from God!

You’re making really dumb choices friend; think about it.

It may be a funny now; be assured it will not be later:eek:
 
I simply make a distinction between God’s laws and laws made by man - even man wrapping himself in a claim of infallibility - as embodied in much of Church doctrine, dogma and disciplines. Of course I accept God’s laws - I just don’t accept that men have the power to speak on God’s behalf!
And by rejecting the Church you reject Christ. Christ gave the power to Peter to promulgate the law, and the power to bind and loose. When you reject that, then you’ve rejected Christ’s ability to do that, and by doing that you’ve inertially rejected Christ Himself.
 
And by rejecting the Church you reject Christ. Christ gave the power to Peter to promulgate the law, and the power to bind and loose. When you reject that, then you’ve rejected Christ’s ability to do that, and by doing that you’ve inertially rejected Christ Himself.
That’s the Catholic Church’s position. I don’t believe it, self-serving interpretations of “binding and loosing”, “keys to the kingdom”, “upon this rock”, etc. notwithstanding.

And anyway, Peter hasn’t been around for quite a while. I don’t believe today’s Roman Catholic Church is the heir to the Apostles’ power and authority, as much as it tries to portray itself as such. It’s just an organization - an organization of men, like any other. And like any organization, it seeks to gain power and establish itself as the exclusive master of its domain.
 
That’s the Catholic Church’s position. I don’t believe it, self-serving interpretations of “binding and loosing”, “keys to the kingdom”, “upon this rock”, etc. notwithstanding.

And anyway, Peter hasn’t been around for quite a while. I don’t believe today’s Roman Catholic Church is the heir to the Apostles’ power and authority, as much as it tries to portray itself as such. It’s just an organization - an organization of men, like any other. And like any organization, it seeks to gain power and establish itself as the exclusive master of its domain.
In your fallible human opinion.
 
You’re making really dumb choices friend; think about it.

It may be a funny now; be assured it will not be later:eek:
If God is real…
  1. I don’t want God.
  2. God doesn’t want people who don’t want him.
God and I will both be happy, as we will have achieved what we want…seclusion from each other.

Will I be miserable in hell?

How could I be, it will be all I know as I won’t have any idea what heaven is like. I didn’t know your God in this life and it will be more of the same in the next life…I still won’t know this God.
 
I have not read this whole thread, but I want to take a stab at answering these questions.
  1. I cannot imagine a person would deserve eternal suffering. And when I try to conjure such a person up in my mind, much of their badness results from factors outside of their control, such as a poor upbringing or natural temperament. If a lack of faith is the problem, it probably never occurs to a vast number of people to be faithful. If a lack of works is the problem, it probably never occurs to a vast number of people that they ought to do good works. And there are a vast number of people who are neither faithful nor particularly charitable but otherwise not rotten.
Among the factors that mitigate or aggravate an offense is who is the object of the offense. This principle is recognized in religion as it is in the law. So let’s say that, unprovoked, you punch somebody in the nose. You could expect to face a lot more jail time if that person is, say, a cop or a judge or the governor than if he is an ordinary Joe off the street.

Now if we apply that principle to offenses against God – and every sin is an offense against God – then it becomes clear that every offense against God (or at least every grave offense) cries out for eternal punishment. Why? Because God is infinite and eternal. There is no one greater, and therefore nothing could be worse than an offense against Him.

You may be sure, incidentally, that God, who sees everything and knows everything, takes into account any and all mitigating factors.
  1. If, in heaven, I will know that others are in hell, won’t I be sad as long as they are suffering, which is apparently eternally? How can we feast in heaven knowing that others are in such a miserable situation?
Because in heaven, we will see things from God’s point of view, and will understand fully there what we do not and cannot understand here on earth. We will see very clearly how and why the damned are enemies of God: all the graces they rejected on earth, and all the times they said no to God, and all the times they chose to do their own will instead of His. And since we will love God above all else, and have wills completely in conformity with His, we will be content to see His enemies suffer the punishment they have earned – even if they are people we loved on earth.
  1. Would it not be better for, say, those who reject God to be put in purgatory forever, with the option of coming up to heaven? Such a situation is roughly imagined in C.S. Lewis’ The Great Divorce. In that situation, human choice would remain.
I would really hesitate to say that, with my limited vision and understanding, I nevertheless know better than God what would be best in any situation. We can be certain that whatever He wills is the best thing, even when we don’t understand it.
  1. For some reason, I am having particular trouble at the idea that praying for souls in hell would be useless. I suppose this is a reaction at the utter hopelessness of such a disposition?
Yes, praying for the souls of the damned is useless as far as the damned are concerned; but since we do not know who is in hell, no prayer for the dead goes to waste. We are certain that canonized saints are in heaven; but there is no parallel canon of damned souls. Not even the damnation of Judas Iscariot is a defined doctrine (although, since Jesus Himself said it would have been better for the Iscariot never to have been born, it must be granted that his outlook is pretty poor). Since, other than the canonized saints, we do not know the eternal fate of those who have died, it is perfectly appropriate to pray for their souls. Whether they are in heaven and have no need of prayer, or in hell and cannot benefit from prayer, the prayers that are offered up for them will benefit some other souls.

Hope that helps.
 
If God is real…
  1. I don’t want God.
  2. God doesn’t want people who don’t want him.
God and I will both be happy, as we will have achieved what we want…seclusion from each other.

Will I be miserable in hell?

How could I be, it will be all I know as I won’t have any idea what heaven is like. I didn’t know your God in this life and it will be more of the same in the next life…I still won’t know this God.
Except that God made us to know, love and serve Him in this life, and be happy with Him in the next. We can’t possibly be happy without Him. This is something we will find out after death, if not before; and if after, it will then be too late. If we really wish to be separated from Him, God will – reluctantly – let us have our way; but we will then find out that our way…sucked.
There is a way which seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death.
Proverbs 14:12
​
Thou movest us to delight in praising Thee; for Thou hast formed us for Thyself, and our hearts are restless till they find rest in Thee.
St. Augustine, Confessions
​
 
May I reply to Victorious’s post No 102?

You say that because God is infinite, therefore a sin against him requires an infinite punishment. But God is infinitely loving and forgiving which argues the other way. Important good people are often those that bear slights easily, it is the self-important, pompous ones that take offence. “Do you know who I am?”]

In heaven we will see things from God’s point of view and so accept hell.

But if my wife was sent to prison on earth justly for a crime she had committed, I would be devastated. Similarly if she was in torment in Hell for ever I would be unable to be happy. God who loves my wife more than I do would also be permanently dismayed.

There are so many other questions about Hell that are hard to answer:
1] As Camerong says who would consciously choose to be tormented for ever?
2] Why cannot a person repent after death?
3] Many non-believers do not think Christianity is true. I am in that position having studied it all my life. I might be mistaken but am I to be in eternal torment because of an honest mistake?

And questions about the Devil too.
4] Why would an intelligent being rebel against an omnipotent God. He would know he would lose!
5] Why would Satan, in the presence of God and realising that things could not be improved, lead a rebellion?
6] How come a good all-powerful God was unable to persuade Satan and other angels of their folly?
7] Having lost, realised the hopeless and unhappy result of their rebellion, why does not Satan repent and get forgiven?
8] Why is Satan 100% evil? The story makes him proud but why does he not welcome fellow rebels and have a jolly permanent party in Hell?
9] Why would a being created by a perfect God have character flaws?

The whole story is just not credible! Better to reject it altogether or try for a non-literal interpretation.
 
You say that because God is infinite, therefore a sin against him requires an infinite punishment. But God is infinitely loving and forgiving which argues the other way.
No, it doesn’t argue the other way. It proves my point. Why would we need God to be infinitely loving and forgiving if sin weren’t infinitely offensive? As far as proud people bearing small slights poorly, you are confusing subjective standards and objective standards. It is an objective truth that the greater the person against whom an offense is committed, the graver is the offense. That means greater mercy is required to forgive the offense.
In heaven we will see things from God’s point of view and so accept hell.

But if my wife was sent to prison on earth justly for a crime she had committed, I would be devastated. Similarly if she was in torment in Hell for ever I would be unable to be happy. God who loves my wife more than I do would also be permanently dismayed.
You are thinking purely in earthly terms about supernatural realities. It ain’t cutting it.
There are so many other questions about Hell that are hard to answer:…And questions about the Devil too…The whole story is just not credible! Better to reject it altogether or try for a non-literal interpretation.
Your thinking on this subject is really confused. Trusting your eternity to it would be a very bad idea.
 
It is an objective truth that the greater the person against whom an offense is committed,

Oh no it is not! If I steal £100 from a poor person that is worse than stealing £100 from a King! Seems to me the status of the person harmed is not usually relevant.
In any case God’s mercy is infinite and should extend to sins against himself.

You are thinking purely in earthly terms about supernatural realities. It ain’t cutting it.
An assertion is not an argument

Your thinking on this subject is really confused. Trusting your eternity to it would be a very bad idea
This is just name-calling. I thought that this site was a place where discussion and reasoning were in order. I could call you dogmatic and reactionary but what would that prove beyond my lack of manners?
 
I could call you dogmatic and reactionary but what would that prove beyond my lack of manners?
That would be name-calling. By contrast, my comment was applicable not to you but to your thinking. And it was the truth.
 
Nope. In fact, there is some Catholic folklore that says St. Michael the Archangel will appear to the person at their moment of death to offer them one last chance at repentance. One can only hope and think that most people would seriously say “I repent,” if such a story is true.
Sure hope that is true but I can’t help but wonder how that would happen when death is instant and unexpected as in a fatal accident. It must be easier to repent when one knows that they will no longer be tempted by the world they will soon be leaving.
 
Victorious - my hypothetical comment, of course, applied not to you but to your opinions!

But to be serious. I am not very good at logic no doubt but when I produce some reasoning it is really no use just saying it is poor you have to show it too.

I look forward to that.

Laurie
 
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