Answers to James White

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Greetings Pablope,

The strawman lies within many of our Catholic friends mischaracterization of Sola Scriptura, e.g. that all a Protestant needs is their Bible alone apart from the Church.

As previously stated I cannot speak for Dr. White, so I’ll share his own words as stated in pages 27-28 in his book *Scripture Alone *:

Sola Scriptura literally means “Scripture alone.”* Unfortunately this phrase tends to be taken in the vein of “Scripture in isolation***, **Scripture outside **of the rest of God’s work in the Church.” (emphasis mine)

That is not it’s intended meaning; again, it means “Scripture alone is the **infallible rule **of faith for the Church.” As mentioned previously, it is a positive assertion of the nature and traits of Scripture as well as a negative statement indicating that **only Scripture possesses its unique capacities as the rule of faith. A rule of faith is that which governs and guides what we believe and why. One work, placing the phrase in its historical setting ( the Reformation) defines sola scriptura as the "freedom of Scripture to rule as God’s word **in the church, disentangled from papal and ecclesiastical magisterium and tradition."
Thank you for trying to clear things up a bit, but I am afraid I do not see much of a practical difference between placing the Bible as the sole infallible rule of faith, and placing Scripture free from any kind of ecclesiastical magisterium and tradition. It becomes exactly what Catholics claim it is: the written word of God interpreted incorrectly by men with no promise of infallible guidance.

At best, even if you refuse to acknowledge the infallibility of the Magisterium to interpret, you’d be guilty of the same thing of which you accuse: interpreting fallibly. I’m sorry, my brother in Christ, but I do not see a difference.
 
Greetings Pablope,

The strawman lies within many of our Catholic friends mischaracterization of Sola Scriptura, e.g. that all a Protestant needs is their Bible alone apart from the Church.

As previously stated I cannot speak for Dr. White, so I’ll share his own words as stated in pages 27-28 in his book *Scripture Alone *:

Sola Scriptura literally means “Scripture alone.”* Unfortunately this phrase tends to be taken in the vein of “Scripture in isolation***, **Scripture outside **of the rest of God’s work in the Church.” (emphasis mine)

That is not it’s intended meaning; again, it means “Scripture alone is the **infallible rule **of faith for the Church.” As mentioned previously, it is a positive assertion of the nature and traits of Scripture as well as a negative statement indicating that **only Scripture possesses its unique capacities as the rule of faith. A rule of faith is that which governs and guides what we believe and why. One work, placing the phrase in its historical setting ( the Reformation) defines sola scriptura as the "freedom of Scripture to rule as God’s word **in the church, disentangled from papal and ecclesiastical magisterium and tradition."
Hi Arizona Samson,

I accept that definition and had it in mind. But it still doesn’t take away several facts.

(1) In the final analysis after all the (name removed by moderator)ut (from the church, etc.) the individual’s interpretation of the Bible alone is still the ultimate authority.

(2) This view of how God’s word is transmitted stemming from the Reformation (as noted) is an ex professo departure from the CC’s teaching that God’s word is transmitted authoritatively down through time by the combined and organically-related process of Scripture and Tradition in the Church.

(3) The standard for proof on the question of how God’s word is transmitted is:
(a) what is portrayed and ordered by the NT authors taken as a whole;
(b) what was taught by the Fathers (when one considers all that a given father said on the subject);
(c) what was taught by the Ecumenical Councils.

As I mentioned before, the evidence of (a)-(c) does not lead of necessity to SS, or even suggest that the preponderance of evidence leads to SS, or that SS meets the burden of proof for a claim protesting the preexisting teaching of the CC at the time of the Reformation.

So how does one justify SS as the method God chose to transmit His word rather than STC? This is the factual question that proponents of SS must answer.
 
Greetings Pablope,

That is not it’s intended meaning; again, it means “Scripture alone is the **infallible rule **of faith for the Church.” As mentioned previously, it is a positive assertion of the nature and traits of Scripture as well as a negative statement indicating that **only Scripture possesses its unique capacities as the rule of faith. A rule of faith is that which governs and guides what we believe and why. One work, placing the phrase in its historical setting ( the Reformation) defines sola scriptura as the "freedom of Scripture to rule as God’s word **in the church, disentangled from papal and ecclesiastical magisterium and tradition/B]."

Thanks for your explanation. I will focus on the last part of what you quoted.

Yes, you (the Reformers) took out the papal and magisterial tradition…but instead, substituted it for something of your own creation…your own tradition, your own interpretation void of the original faith that compiled it for the use in the Catholic Liturgy…🤷

It seems is that you (protestants, generally)…have one thing in common…if it is taught by the Magisterium…I disagree with it…🤷

calledtocommunion.com/2009/07/ecclesial-deism/

‘Tradition’ becomes whatever one agrees with in the history of the Church, such as the Nicene Creed or Chalcedonian Christology.

This pick-and-choose approach to the tradition shows that it is not the fact that an Ecumenical Council declared something definitively that makes it ‘authoritative’ for Mohler. What makes it ‘authoritative’ for Mohler is that it agrees with his interpretation of Scripture. If he encounters something in the tradition that seems extra-biblical or opposed to Scripture he rejects it. For that reason, tradition does not authoritatively guide his interpretation. His interpretation picks out what counts as tradition, and then this tradition informs his interpretation.
 
That is not it’s intended meaning; again, it means “Scripture alone is the **infallible rule **of faith for the Church.” As mentioned previously, it is a positive assertion of the nature and traits of Scripture as well as a negative statement indicating that **only Scripture possesses its unique capacities as the rule of faith. A rule of faith is that which governs and guides what we believe and why. One work, placing the phrase in its historical setting ( the Reformation) defines sola scriptura as the "freedom of Scripture to rule as God’s word **in the church, disentangled from papal and ecclesiastical magisterium and tradition."
On White’s website, there was once an advertisement for 16th century William Whitaker’s book Disputation on Holy Scripture, which entails a defense of sola scriptura. The ad praised Whitaker as one of “only a few godly servants” who have made a full defense of “Scriptural sufficiency.”

It may interest you to read that work as well as Catholic Apologist Dave Armstrong’s lengthy response to the volume in detail, collected in the book Pillars of Sola Scriptura. Thus there are no straw men torn down with fake definitions of sola scriptura. For Armstrong quotes Whitaker frequently and lengthily. A large percentage of Whitaker’s book is duplicated in Armstrong’s.
 
On his show of 17April Dr White mentioned my post copied below and was unsure of what I meant.
I have listened to his podcasts fairly regularly for roughly 4 years
He has expressed a view on a number of ocassions that he considers there to be no peace in the gospel found in Catholicism and that he has not received a suitable answer/explanation to the contrary. Predominantly he has identified this with the example of having unconfessed mortal sin and then being hit by a car(or death bed)

But I understand this to be a strawman, given Gods mercy recognised outside of the normative means in the sacrament of reconcilliation in a desire/intent/repentant heart without ability to recieve the amazing! sacrament.

I normally enjoy listening to him, prompting me to think and study more.

I hear that he eats kittens (joke from one of his shows)
The following link gives an explanation for reconciliation of desire, which is what I was trying to get across.
catholic.com/quickquestions/if-there-is-a-baptism-of-desire-is-there-a-reconciliation-of-desire

While the following from the CCC get to it.

1452 When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called “perfect” (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible.51

1484 "Individual, integral confession and absolution remain the only ordinary way for the faithful to reconcile themselves with God and the Church, unless physical or moral impossibility excuses from this kind of confession."95 There are profound reasons for this. Christ is at work in each of the sacraments. He personally addresses every sinner: "My son, your sins are forgiven."96 He is the physician tending each one of the sick who need him to cure them.97 He raises them up and reintegrates them into fraternal communion. Personal confession is thus the form most expressive of reconciliation with God and with the Church.
 
This argument isn’t necessarily the defeater it appears to be. James White can say, “Paul was instructing Timothy to go by Scripture alone – however much of it was available to him.”
The problem if he argues that is that it goes against the very idea that Scripture is the ONLY existent infallible rule available. With the apostles still alive, their spoken word was just as infallible as their written word, meaning nobody was practicing SS at that timeframe. This is why White made the claim that SS does not apply during periods of enscripturation and that SS only applies to a completed rule of faith.
 
The problem if he argues that is that it goes against the very idea that Scripture is the ONLY existent infallible rule available. With the apostles still alive, their spoken word was just as infallible as their written word, meaning nobody was practicing SS at that timeframe. This is why White made the claim that SS does not apply during periods of enscripturation and that SS only applies to a completed rule of faith.
Ahhh… interesting. 🙂

It would be nifty if you could call in to White’s program and make it clear what you were really saying in the post of yours that he commented on. White would have to deal with this problem directly and from then on couldn’t say he misunderstood your argument.
 
As a P.S. to my above post, let the record forever show that James White claims to have issues with the members of CAF but turned down an invitation to debate us on our own turf. Regardless of the excuses he gave for his decision, this indicates to me that his intimidating, aggressive manner may be a tactic he uses to disguise his own feelings of being intimidated. It’s easy for him to denounce people from the safety of his own blog, but quite another to do so on a forum where people can actually respond back.
Here’s why I think Dr. White doesn’t come around these parts, referring to Dr. White as an anti-Catholic. This is a tactic, used in a war of words to intimidate others. Pro-Lifers are continually barraged with the term “Anti-Choice” and we know that this is a war of words, at least it is when it bothers us. Do I even need to bring up the term “Homophobic”? It’s a socially manipulative tool to intimidate others, to silence them. So my question is why would if we had the truth want to use tactics such as this to silence and even de-humanise another individual?

The silly argument that he is not truly a “Dr.” 😦 Well? Personal. He’s addressed this, look it up. Otherwise can this possibly be considered slander? Morally?

Personal attacks. He’s mean? He’s aggressive? Putting up pictures and making fun? Hey guys, he doesn’t sound aggressive when you don’t disagree with him. Is it possible that you don’t like him because you don’t like what he has to say?

Hey and an individual claiming a Reformed Christian hasn’t dealt with Imputed Righteousness? :o (TULIP) Have you read any of his books? He has an entire book on this subject. 😦 I am sad to see this kind of misrepresentation.

These are just a few frustrations I had when I came to these forums for real answers to the real questions I had. I had read the Roman Catholic Controversy and found it to be cogent and compelling. When I looked here for answers, I was very frustrated in my search. The answers here were shallow, and not at all dealing with the foundations we were now questioning.

If anything he simply cannot win, I frankly wouldn’t in his position bother either, does he really owe these forums? I think that Christ in the Gospels had some instructions to his disciples about what to do when a town/region would not receive them (listen)…

There are really two kinds of people who comment and ask why I have so many children. The first is from those who are frankly shocked at our family size, but they are disinterested because they have already decided it’s ridiculous, we usually say a funny, quippy thing and we all laugh and move on. The second is from the persons who are frankly interested in why, and then they wonder how, and frankly this is the person we don’t mind spending an hour visiting with when we are out getting groceries. I guess I feel that this forum is the first type of people, not really interested…

Just some thoughts in the spirit of being truthful.
 
…These are just a few frustrations I had when I came to these forums for real answers to the real questions I had. I had read the Roman Catholic Controversy and found it to be cogent and compelling. When I looked here for answers, I was very frustrated in my search. The answers here were shallow, and not at all dealing with the foundations we were now questioning.

…

Just some thoughts in the spirit of being truthful.
You must be tuning in to the wrong threads.

I’ve found some extremely profound, challenging, engaging, and enlightening information on this forum–that’s why I keep coming back.

Perhaps not this thread, but there are many others which are much more profound, and spirtually compelling.
 
Here’s why I think Dr. White doesn’t come around these parts, referring to Dr. White as an anti-Catholic. This is a tactic, used in a war of words to intimidate others. Pro-Lifers are continually barraged with the term “Anti-Choice” and we know that this is a war of words, at least it is when it bothers us. Do I even need to bring up the term “Homophobic”? It’s a socially manipulative tool to intimidate others, to silence them. So my question is why would if we had the truth want to use tactics such as this to silence and even de-humanise another individual?

The silly argument that he is not truly a “Dr.” 😦 Well? Personal. He’s addressed this, look it up. Otherwise can this possibly be considered slander? Morally?

Personal attacks. He’s mean? He’s aggressive? Putting up pictures and making fun? Hey guys, he doesn’t sound aggressive when you don’t disagree with him. Is it possible that you don’t like him because you don’t like what he has to say?

Hey and an individual claiming a Reformed Christian hasn’t dealt with Imputed Righteousness? :o (TULIP) Have you read any of his books? He has an entire book on this subject. 😦 I am sad to see this kind of misrepresentation.

These are just a few frustrations I had when I came to these forums for real answers to the real questions I had. I had read the Roman Catholic Controversy and found it to be cogent and compelling. When I looked here for answers, I was very frustrated in my search. The answers here were shallow, and not at all dealing with the foundations we were now questioning.

If anything he simply cannot win, I frankly wouldn’t in his position bother either, does he really owe these forums? I think that Christ in the Gospels had some instructions to his disciples about what to do when a town/region would not receive them (listen)…

There are really two kinds of people who comment and ask why I have so many children. The first is from those who are frankly shocked at our family size, but they are disinterested because they have already decided it’s ridiculous, we usually say a funny, quippy thing and we all laugh and move on. The second is from the persons who are frankly interested in why, and then they wonder how, and frankly this is the person we don’t mind spending an hour visiting with when we are out getting groceries. I guess I feel that this forum is the first type of people, not really interested…

Just some thoughts in the spirit of being truthful.
Soo . . . “anti-Catholic” is an issue . . . OK, well then let’s dig deep to look for real answers like you want and take a look at it.

Is it possible for someone to be anti-Catholic or not? If so, what would it look like? If it does exist, should someone blow the whistle on it? And is it an epistemic flaw or not? If it does not exist, why are those people often referred to as anti-Catholic (e.g., Tony Alamo, Jack Chick, Ian Paisley–to name those considered extreme) really not so? Is the identification of certain of their statements and behaviors as “anti-Catholic” just “personal attacks” on them in these cases?
 
Soo . . . “anti-Catholic” is an issue . . . OK, well then let’s dig deep to look for real answers like you want and take a look at it.

Is it possible for someone to be anti-Catholic or not? If so, what would it look like? If it does exist, should someone blow the whistle on it? And is it an epistemic flaw or not? If it does not exist, why are those people often referred to as anti-Catholic (e.g., Tony Alamo, Jack Chick, Ian Paisley–to name those considered extreme) really not so? Is the identification of certain of their statements and behaviors as “anti-Catholic” just “personal attacks” on them in these cases?
Stating that you think something is wrong and why, isn’t the same as being Anti-X, Y or Z. It is expressing your thoughts, opinions and freedom of speech. He isn’t inciting hatred towards catholics.

When people use the loaded term Anti-Catholic, or Anti-Choice, or Homophobic what do they mean? As I stated above the reason people use exaggerated terms is because they are loading the term with meaning. This meaning is unstated but understood by others.

Start by referring to him as a Christian Apologist, instead of an inflammatory name intended to discredit. Perhaps then you would be on a level field.
 
Stating that you think something is wrong and why, isn’t the same as being Anti-X, Y or Z. It is expressing your thoughts, opinions and freedom of speech. He isn’t inciting hatred towards catholics.
His tone and method of expressing his thoughts and opinions go beyond simple statements. Do you really find nothing at all distasteful in comparing Catholics (who, by the by were only “expressing their thoughts, opinions and free speech” to terrorist Jihadists?
When people use the loaded term Anti-Catholic, or Anti-Choice, or Homophobic what do they mean? As I stated above the reason people use exaggerated terms is because they are loading the term with meaning. This meaning is unstated but understood by others.
James White has left very little unstated when it comes to his views on the Catholic Church.
Start by referring to him as a Christian Apologist, instead of an inflammatory name intended to discredit. Perhaps then you would be on a level field.
Since so many of his views seem blatantly non-Christian, I would have a hard time calling him a “Christian Apologist” with any honesty. 🤷
 
Stating that you think something is wrong and why, isn’t the same as being Anti-X, Y or Z. It is expressing your thoughts, opinions and freedom of speech. He isn’t inciting hatred towards catholics.

When people use the loaded term Anti-Catholic, or Anti-Choice, or Homophobic what do they mean? As I stated above the reason people use exaggerated terms is because they are loading the term with meaning. This meaning is unstated but understood by others.

Start by referring to him as a Christian Apologist, instead of an inflammatory name intended to discredit. Perhaps then you would be on a level field.
Actually, the term “anti-Catholic” and its derivatives aren’t only used in the same way as “homophobic”. Please see “Use of the Term ‘Anti-Catholic’ in Protestant and Secular Scholarly Works of History and Sociology” and “Scholarly Use of the Term Anti-Catholicism in Precisely the Way I Habitually Use It (the Theological or Doctrinal Sense)”.

Further, since we’re discussing this particular figure, please see also “James White’s Use of ‘Anti’ Terms & More ‘Tired’ Rhetoric and Anti-Catholic Terminological and Ethical Double Standards”.
 
Stating that you think something is wrong and why, isn’t the same as being Anti-X, Y or Z. It is expressing your thoughts, opinions and freedom of speech. He isn’t inciting hatred towards catholics.

When people use the loaded term Anti-Catholic, or Anti-Choice, or Homophobic what do they mean? As I stated above the reason people use exaggerated terms is because they are loading the term with meaning. This meaning is unstated but understood by others.

Start by referring to him as a Christian Apologist, instead of an inflammatory name intended to discredit. Perhaps then you would be on a level field.
I think I can get some hints of an answer in your response to my effort.

OK, I will state that I think anti-Catholicism is wrong and why: it is a form of bigotry. It plays on people’s fears and ignorance and promotes paranoid conspiracy theories toward Catholics/Catholicism. It circumvents reasoned discussion because it is driven by irrational fear and hatred that spins one preposterous tale after another and any evidence you present to the contrary is just part of the demonic Vatican control of the media, universities, yada, yada, etc. It has erupted in violence toward Catholics in the US at the turn of 19th to the 20th century.

When Catholics are not considered to be Christian and the sacraments (the CC is not alone in having them) are called acts of “sorcery”, that’s not fair-minded reasoned discussion. It is a bigotry dressed in pseudo-rational garb play acting like it’s an honest discussion.

So when Jack Chick makes outlandish, inflammatory statements like the following, that’s not inciting hatred?

The Catholic Church keeps “the name of every Protestant church member in the world” in a “big computer” in the Vatican for use in future persecutions. [Tract: “My Name? . . . In the Vatican?”]

The Jesuits instigated the American Civil War, supporting the Confederate cause and seeking to undermine the Union. When they failed, they arranged the assassination of Abraham Lincoln. The Big Betrayal, 53–59, The Godfathers, 9] Later, they formed the Ku Klux Klan. The Godfathers, 31]

The Vatican set up the Communist Party when their attempt to control Europe by launching WW II failed. The Godfathers, 24]

The Vatican, “Rome is still [having had it since the days of the Roman Emperors] the seat of power. She controls the U.N., governments, and the world’s finances.” [Tract: “Papa”]

“Because of her tremendous wealth, the Vatican can sway the economies of the world. She can bring nations to their knees with planned depressions.” The Godfathers, 16]

So when Tony Alamo does the same, that’s not inciting hatred?

“Because of her age-old desire to control the world government and church, the serpent-like Vatican has infested the world and the U.S. government with so many of her zealous, highly-trained and dedicated Jesuit devotees, that she now controls the United Nations (which she created), the White House, Congress, every state, federal, civic, and social government agency, including the U.S. Department of Labor, the IRS, the FBI, the Supreme Court, judicial systems, the armed forces, state, federal, and other police, also the international banking and federal reserve systems (called the Illuminati and Agentur), labor unions, the Mafia, and most of the heavyweight news media.
This cult (the Vatican) is very close to replacing our U.S. Constitution with her one-world, satanic canon laws of death to the “heretic” (anyone that is not Roman Catholic). General Lafayette, President George Washington’s most respected aide and general, prophetically stated, “If the liberties of the American people are ever destroyed, they will fall by the hand of the Roman Catholic cult’s clergy.”

For Ian Paisley, . . .
In 1988, when Pope John Paul II delivered a speech to the European Parliament, Paisley shouted “I denounce you as the Antichrist!” and held up a red poster reading “Pope John Paul II ANTICHRIST” in black letters.

I would not put James White in the same category as those above. But when he claims in debates that the ECFs taught sola scriptura by citing a few passages where they not surprisingly speak of the probative value of scripture and ignores the mountain of passages that speak of the unity of Scripture tradition and church; and gets shredded on it; and then goes onto the next engagement and makes the same claim; when that happens something else is at work besides a disinterested pursuit of the truth.
 
When Catholics are not considered to be Christian and the sacraments (the CC is not alone in having them) are called acts of “sorcery”, that’s not fair-minded reasoned discussion. It is a bigotry dressed in pseudo-rational garb play acting like it’s an honest discussion.
Has Matt Slick ever heard of the term “double standard”?

At the second link, he writes, “Instead of depending on the Spirit of God to work as He wills in the manner He chooses, the Roman Catholic Church uses ritualized methodologies to exercise control of the spiritual realm in order to gain physical results. The Roman Catholic Church needs to repent of yet another error.”

Well, Lutherans believe in the sacramental nature of baptism and the Lord’s Supper. When, I would like to know, will Slick write an article calling out the very founder of Protestantism for not “depending on the Spirit of God to work as He wills in the manner He chooses” and exhorting all Lutherans to “repent of [their sorcery-infused] error”?

The antagonism exhibited by some Calvinists and Evangelicals toward a sacramentalism destroys their credibility, as it backfires against someone on their own team–Martin Luther. This is, after all, a man they venerate as the earliest hero in the struggle against “Romanism” and in defense of “the Gospel”.
 
Has Matt Slick ever heard of the term “double standard”?

At the second link, he writes, “Instead of depending on the Spirit of God to work as He wills in the manner He chooses, the Roman Catholic Church uses ritualized methodologies to exercise control of the spiritual realm in order to gain physical results. The Roman Catholic Church needs to repent of yet another error.”

Well, Lutherans believe in the sacramental nature of baptism and the Lord’s Supper. When, I would like to know, will Slick write an article calling out the very founder of Protestantism for not “depending on the Spirit of God to work as He wills in the manner He chooses” and exhorting all Lutherans to “repent of [their sorcery-infused] error”?

The antagonism exhibited by some Calvinists and Evangelicals toward a sacramentalism destroys their credibility, as it backfires against someone on their own team–Martin Luther. This is, after all, a man they venerate as the earliest hero in the struggle against “Romanism” and in defense of “the Gospel”.
Exactly! The belligerent attitude and that kind of disregard for consistency shows there’s more going on than an interest in finding the truth and sharing it.

Incidentally, I also liked you post above.
 
Exactly! The belligerent attitude and that kind of disregard for consistency shows there’s more going on than an interest in finding the truth and sharing it.
It should raise the eyebrows of all honest seekers. James White, a Reformed Baptist, is inconsistent in precisely the same way.

Unfortunately, I’ve been coming to the conclusion that Protestant apologists and evangelists who conduct “outreach” to Catholics and Orthodox are doing the work of the devil himself. Instead of leading us toward the truth and closer to Christ, such people are seeking to feed us misinformation (we hope not disinformation) and further away from him. May God have mercy on their souls.
Incidentally, I also liked you post above.
Thank you. I presume you’re referring to the message where I link to blog posts which show that “anti-Catholic” and such terms are in fact employed by scholars, not only members of online forums with an axe to grind, right?

PS: In my earlier post, “a sacramentalism” should be simply “sacramentalism”.
 
Anti-catholic is simply a name, really, and a fair descriptor of someone - My husband would be happy to say he’s an anti-Catholic, the same way he would say he’s anti-abortion.
 
Making a comment here so I can come back later and reread some of these great links. I read the bible , but I could never keep up with some of you “lay apologists” 👍
 
Anti-catholic is simply a name, really, and a fair descriptor of someone - My husband would be happy to say he’s an anti-Catholic, the same way he would say he’s anti-abortion.
But when RCs use the term “Anti-Catholic” they have in mind the kind of things I documented in my post above “Yesterday, 4:39 pm” e.g., Jack Chick, Tony Alamo, and Ian Paisley. Certainly your husband wouldn’t identify with that kind of thinking, would he?
 
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