Anti-abortion protest signs - how far is too far?

[vern_humphrey]

Once again, the discussion is not about the concept in question, but rather distractions such as accusations that anyone who disagrees is pro-abortion or needs to provide a resume.

Yes, distractions and accusations against people who are doing the work.

What I do or don’t do has nothing to do with whether indiscriminate use of graphic abortion pictures is a good thing to do.

If you do nothing, it casts doubt on your credibility when you attack those who are working.

Oh - and of course - the ever important success rate. If I say I am less successful than those using indiscriminate tactics, does that make my tactics less right? If so, I fail to see how the ends aren’t being used to justify the means.

Bogus argument – since you haven’t shown the means are wrong.

There are other methods available.

Name them and tell us what success you have had using them.

 

[seekerz]

There’s an old saying about uninformed opinions, you know.

No, I don’t know. Please enlighten me.

As for the rest, to paraphrase an old Irish ballad, “The critics, they are plentiful. But the workers, they are few.”

Why don’t you deal with the substance of my comments, point by point?

Better that children should die, eh?

The end never justifies the means or else abortion clinic bombings would be moral!

There’s an old saying about uninformed opinions.

Again, deal with the substance of my comments, if you can…

“Forcing” the material on your child? Who did that?

I was just giving an example. A graphic billboard along a highway for example, would forcibly expose my child to something he isn’t ready for. I’m the final arbiter of what is appropriate viewing material for my child.

So how many children have you saved by this method?

I have counseled and educated scores of young children of various ages (not to mention personal friends, godchildren etc) and as I stated before, to my knowledge not one of them has ever chosen abortion. I have publicly stood against abortion at great expense to myself, influencing others to do the same…I’ve provided support to those with unwanted pregnancies so they wouldn’t choose death out of desperation. Don’t know if any of that counts in your book, but I’m sure it will count on the last day.

Saving babies doesn’t just mean standing outside a clinic. By that point it often is too late. My calling has been to get to women/girls much, much earlier.

Again let me state: “my method”, proposed as a solution to sin and death by the Lord Himself, has never been known to fail. Evangelize till you have no breath left in you, let Christ reign and the culture of death has no choice but to retreat!

 

[vern_humphrey]

There’s an old saying about uninformed opinions, you know.

No, I don’t know. Please enlighten me.

Ask your mother – if she thinks you can handle it, she’ll tell you.

Why don’t you deal with the substance of my comments, point by point?

I would, but I haven’t found any substance.

Again, deal with the substance of my comments, if you can…

found any substance in them – just complaints and attacks on people who are doing the work.

I was just giving an example. A graphic billboard along a highway for example, would forcibly expose my child to something he isn’t ready for. I’m the final arbiter of what is appropriate viewing material for my child.

Now you see why I say I haven’t found any substance – it’s just the old I, me, my, no contribtions to the discussion.

I have counseled and educated scores of young children of various ages (not to mention personal friends, godchildren etc) and as I stated before, to my knowledge not one of them has ever chosen abortion. I have publicly stood against abortion at great expense to myself, influencing others to do the same…I’ve provided support to those with unwanted pregnancies so they wouldn’t choose death out of desperation. Don’t know if any of that counts in your book, but I’m sure it will count on the last day.

So tell us your methodology? What’s your success rate?

Saving babies doesn’t just mean standing outside a clinic. By that point it often is too late. My calling has been to get to women/girls much, much earlier.

Bingo! That’s why we need an affective strategy early in the game.

Again let me state: “my method”, proposed as a solution to sin and death by the Lord Himself, has never been known to fail. Evangelize till you have no breath left in you, let Christ reign and the culture of death has no choice but to retreat!

If what you say is literally true, there must be no abortion at all in this country.

 

[seekerz]

just complaints and attacks on people who are doing the work

Where did I attack anyone?

Bingo! That’s why we need an affective strategy early in the game.

What on earth is an affective strategy?

If what you say is literally true, there must be no abortion at all in this country.

Are you claiming that everybody in this country has been evangelized?!

 

[vern_humphrey]

Where did I attack anyone?
Most recently?

Originally Posted by seekerz
Why don’t you deal with the substance of my comments, point by point?

strategy?
You don’t know, but you attack people?

There are three realms in Human Learning Theory:

• Cognitive – logic, language, math, reading and so on
• Psychomotor – riding a bike, throwing a ball.
• Affective – values and attitudes

.

To operate in any realm, you must use a strategy appropriate to that realm. You can’t teach math by having a student shoot hoops. You can’t teach kids to ride a bike by lecture.

To teach values and attitudes, you must use an affective strategy.

Are you claiming that everybody in this country has been evangelized?!

If they haven’t, you’d better get cracking, hadn’t you?

 

[seekerz]

I have a question of substance to contribute to the discussion:

Suppose woman/girl decides against abortion because she is grossed out by graphic anti-abortion signs, but in order to avoid unwanted pregnancies in the future chooses to have an IUD inserted. Other than saving the life of that one child, have we not just pushed the problem underground leaving future conceptions at risk as well as her immortal soul? (I’m assuming that we all know how an IUD works)

Should we, as Catholics, be satisfied with that?

 

[vern_humphrey]

I have a question of substance to contribute to the discussion:

No, it isn’t a question of substance. Any more than, “Suppose a woman being helped to care for her baby should suddenly go berserk and drive her car into a crowd of people?”

Suppose woman/girl decides against abortion because she is grossed out by graphic anti-abortion signs, but in order to avoid unwanted pregnancies in the future chooses to have an IUD inserted. Other than saving the life of that one child, have we not just pushed the problem underground leaving future conceptions at risk as well as her immortal soul? (I’m assuming that we all know how an IUD works)

When did this happen? Who was this woman?

Should we, as Catholics, be satisfied with that?

We as Catholics should not attack fellow Catholics working pro-life issues with bogus “what ifs?”

 

[seekerz]

It’s not a bogus what-if.

Many in the medical world press women to use methods of contraception that don’t require much user (name removed by moderator)ut (such as injections or IUD’s) to prevent further unwanted pregnancies.

This is true even for pro-choice medical personnel because they admit the complications/dangers of repeated abortions. So my question compasses multiple women that I’ve known.

 

[vern_humphrey]

It’s not a bogus what-if.

It is until you give us evidence it actually happened.

Many in the medical world press women to use methods of contraception that don’t require much user (name removed by moderator)ut (such as injections or IUD’s) to prevent further unwanted pregnancies.

Which does not prove someone decided to abort or use such a device because she saw a gruesome picture.

This is true even for pro-choice medical personnel because they admit the complications/dangers of repeated abortions. So my question compasses multiple women that I’ve known.

They got abortions** because** they saw some pictures?

 

[seekerz]

It is until you give us evidence it actually happened.

What evidence do you want? Someone’s private medical records?

Which does not prove someone decided to abort or use such a device because she saw a gruesome picture.

I never said someone chose to abort because of seeing a picture, actually it was the opposite. Being turned off abortion, having had the baby, she chose an IUD (not having Catholic values, teachings or education i.e. evangelisation) to prevent herself from being placed in the position of having an unwanted pregnancy in the future.

They got abortions** because** they saw some pictures?

Read my comment above. That’s not at all what I’m saying.

 

[J_G]

i voted yes. That however, doesn’t mean that i would support the use of graphic images in every situation. i think that standing outside a kindergarten with large posters of aborted babies would be a terrible idea. Standing on the sidewalk on a town square or something, that’s a different story. i saw those signs as a child (starting at about first grade), and i don’t think they messed me up. i did ask my mom what they were doing, she explained that those were showing the results of an abortion. From then on, the reality of abortion makes me sick.

 

[proudnifi]

Yes, distractions and accusations against people who are doing the work.

I (and others) believe that the indiscriminate use of graphic abortion pics is wrong. So, yes, we will speak out against it - and if “distracts” people intent on having such pics deliberately made available to young children, great. However, if we both end up in a discussion with a pro-choice person, I would expect we’d put our relatively small differences aside and try to help that person see the humanity of the unborn.

If you do nothing, it casts doubt on your credibility when you attack those who are working.

Am I doing nothing? Let’s just say I am doing nothing for the sake of the discussion. I can still have an opinion and speak out against wrong actions. For instance, I am not involved in law enforcement. But if the government decided to enforce the death penalty by 1,000 small cuts, I’d speak out against it - even though I am not engaged in law enforcement activities. Sure, I benefit from law enforcement, but I still have a responsibility to speak up if it’s not done correctly.

Bogus argument – since you haven’t shown the means are wrong.

When one tries to show the moral correctness of an action, one should not use the argument that it’s more effective than other actions. I think that’s the crux of most of the discussions on this thread - whether it’s a good thing to show the pics to general audiences. It’s not a discussion about which good method should be used - in which case, success rates would be good point to consider. It’s also not the case that showing the pics to general audiences is the only method - a significant barrier to the usage of the principle of double effect.

Name them and tell us what success you have had using them.

Some of these have been mentioned already - and I still say they don’t affect the inherent morality of any other act. Other methods to fight abortion include but are not limited to:

• Targeted use of graphic abortion pics - I haven’t used.
  Do we need to debate if this works? I hope not.
• General and targeted use of ultrasound pics - I haven’t used.
  No stats.
• Writing representatives - I have used.
  No stats but I try. I know some official pro-life groups still use this method, so maybe there are people who think it does some good.
• Responsible voting - I have used (I think - hard to know).
  No stats. I can only hope.
• Teaching our children (using age-appropriate information) - No kids, but I hope I’ve contributed with family members.
  Me and everyone of my generation in my family (as far as I know) is pro-life - I attribute this to “teaching our children”. Me and my three sibs were not shown pics of little mangled babies so other methods were used. No overall stats on whether parents can teach their kids that abortion is wrong - I’m going to say it’s a successful method anyway.
• Speaking out when people around us say pro-abortion/pro-choice things - I have used.
  I don’t have stats on speaking out when people around me say pro-abortion/pro-choice things. If you would believe that setting an example for others is useful or using rational dialogue can teach people, then this would be a successful method. I believe it is. I’ve watched people stop and think - and even give in on a point they previously held as “obvious” - after I speak.
• Prayer - I have used.
  Prayer. No stats. I will end up totally depressed if I say prayer isn’t successful, so I will go out on a limb and put this in the success box.

ETA: Because I can’t type and didn’t cover all the questions asked.

 

[mapleoak]

Maple-oak - it frustrates me and disappoints me that some people think that it’s ok to show morbidly violent images to young children with little or no consideration of the consequences for the children who are here.

Considering the lives of those unborn who are going to be put to death is not considering the consequences for the children who are here?

As I have already said, these pictures are very distressing for little children who should be enjoying the privelege of the inocence of childhood.

How does this destroy their innocence? Sure if there parents wrongly teach them abortion is acceptable.

I do agree that the pictures can and should be shown to people of childbearing age. This would be equally effective in my opinion since 4-year old girls don’t need abortions

4-year olds understand enough to comprehend these pictures, yet they are not old enough to start teaching them right from wrong?

 

[mapleoak]

“It makes me sick to even consider exposing young children to everything life will throw at them. **It’s so awful that many children are forced into situations that should not happen to anyone much less to an innocent child who can’t defend himself (including atrocities as abortion). **”

And if a mass murderer moved in next door and starting killing people in his home on a daily basis, what would you do?

If a mass murderer set up shop across the street and starting murderering pre-schoolers on a daily basis, what would you do?

If an abortionist opened an abortuary next door and started killing the uborn everyday, what would you do?

In which situation would you be concerned or not concerned with whether children will be so called exposed?

I suppose one could fight abortion by kidnapping the children of abortionists and torturing them until the abortionist promises to find another job - that would also sicken me.

Apply this to the above situations as well. Maybe just call the police? Hard to do when abortion is legal.

 

[vern_humphrey]

What evidence do you want? Someone’s private medical records?

Now that is dishonest!

You prentend that you need “someone’s private medical records” to show** motivation**.

I never said someone chose to abort because of seeing a picture, actually it was the opposite. Being turned off abortion, having had the baby, she chose an IUD (not having Catholic values, teachings or education i.e. evangelisation) to prevent herself from being placed in the position of having an unwanted pregnancy in the future.

Read my comment above. That’s not at all what I’m saying.

Your claim makes no sense – are you now saying the pictures would cause someone to use an IUD?

 

[seekerz]

Now that is dishonest!

You prentend that you need “someone’s private medical records” to show** motivation**.

Your claim makes no sense – are you now saying the pictures would cause someone to use an IUD?

Your persistent misunderstanding surprises me considering how astute you seem to be.

I’m saying the graphic images may turn her off abortion, but without evangelization by Catholics she may turn to methods which are just as pro-death to avoid future conceptions. Some evangelicals I know who are pro-life will promote any artificial contaceptive method to avoid unwanted pregnancy and consequent abortion. When I mention the abortive effect of contraception, some dismiss it with “but at least it’s not a formed baby yet”.

My point is, graphics without evangelisation might solve very little and we may not even be aware that innocents continue to die.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Your persistent misunderstanding surprises me considering how astute you seem to be.

I’m saying the graphic images may turn her off abortion, but without evangelization by Catholics she may turn to methods which are just as pro-death to avoid future conceptions.

“May” is not “Will.” And until you show some evidence that your imaginary scenario has some basis in reality, it remains just that – an imaginary scenario.

Some evangelicals I know who are pro-life will promote any artificial contaceptive method to avoid unwanted pregnancy and consequent abortion. When I mention the abortive effect of contraception, some dismiss it with “but at least it’s not a formed baby yet”.

So what Protestants do somehow smears Catholics?

My point is, graphics without evangelisation might solve very little and we may not even be aware that innocents continue to die.

“Might,” “could be” and “maybe.” Where’s the substance to your complaints?

There are people working right now to end abortion – or at least to save as many children as they can. Now, how about helping them instead of sniping at them?

 

[seekerz]

“May” is not “Will.” And until you show some evidence that your imaginary scenario has some basis in reality, it remains just that – an imaginary scenario.

So what Protestants do somehow smears Catholics?

“Might,” “could be” and “maybe.” Where’s the substance to your complaints?

There are people working right now to end abortion – or at least to save as many children as they can. Now, how about helping them instead of sniping at them?

Sniping…smearing…complaining…can’t someone disagree with your viewpoint without being accused of such?

Even the greatest theologians in the Church have respectfully disagreed with each other. I guess they never had abortion to contend with - I assume it is a purely modern invention.

And of course we know being anti-abortion means you have to agree with everything done in the name of saving babies…otherwise you’re pro-choice.

Well you know what? I am pro-choice: pro- the choice to follow you conscience on any issue where there isn’t a specific Church teaching to guide us, such as the indiscriminate use of graphic images. God bless you.

 

[proudnifi]

And if a mass murderer moved in next door and starting killing people in his home on a daily basis, what would you do?

If a mass murderer set up shop across the street and starting murderering pre-schoolers on a daily basis, what would you do?

If an abortionist opened an abortuary next door and started killing the uborn everyday, what would you do?

In which situation would you be concerned or not concerned with whether children will be so called exposed?
…

Apply this to the above situations as well. Maybe just call the police? Hard to do when abortion is legal.

I don’t understand the question. I would not want young children exposed to any of those situations - or graphic pictures depicting any of those situations.

I would not try to stop a mass murderer - whether next store to me or across the street from me - by putting up pictures of blood and gore all over the place. I’d try other tactics. I will state upfront that I am against mass murderers.

With regard to my point that it would sicken me if an anti-abortion activist tortured an abortionist’s family to get that abortionist to stop, I would also say it’s wrong to torture a mass murderer’s family members in an attempt to get the mass murderer to stop.

Would I call the police if mass murderer set up shop next door? I assume so - but I haven’t been in that situation. I know it won’t work with regard to abortion (since it’s legal) so I don’t suggest you call the cops on the abortionists unless they break the law.

 

[mapleoak]

I would not try to stop a mass murderer - whether next store to me or across the street from me - by putting up pictures of blood and gore all over the place. I’d try other tactics. I will state upfront that I am against mass murderers.

Isn’t an abortionist a mass murderer?

Would I call the police if mass murderer set up shop next door? I assume so - but I haven’t been in that situation. I know it won’t work with regard to abortion (since it’s legal) so I don’t suggest you call the cops on the abortionists unless they break the law.

What would you do? You say we shouldn’t this or that, but what you do. Torturing the abortionists family is immoral and an amuzing aside from what we are talking about. What would YOU do?