Anti-abortion suction apparatus

[Annie39]

Longing Soul and others please join me in the fight against abortion suction apparatus. They must at all costs be banned. On another thread LS wrote “It is reasonable that instruments of death are treated with the seriousness they deserve.” and in the case of these instruments of torture and murder nothing could be more true. I challenge LS, Gary and all others who are opposed to private ownership of guns to immediately begin to argue in their country for this ban. As a person who believes in a person’s right to have a means of self protection I find it sad that the babes have no such self protection in the womb but you folks can be their defenders and go after those instruments that are used only to kill people.

Annie

 

[ClearWater]

Longing Soul and others please join me in the fight against abortion suction apparatus. They must at all costs be banned. On another thread LS wrote “It is reasonable that instruments of death are treated with the seriousness they deserve.” and in the case of these instruments of torture and murder nothing could be more true. I challenge LS, Gary and all others who are opposed to private ownership of guns to immediately begin to argue in their country for this ban. As a person who believes in a person’s right to have a means of self protection I find it sad that the babes have no such self protection in the womb but you folks can be their defenders and go after those instruments that are used only to kill people.

Annie

While abortion is still legal, I don’t think a ban like this would work. So, the laws would be one place for people to begin. People would need to vote and write to overturn current policies.

I think one way to approach abortion would be to try to restrict it in stages…

Well, that’s how abortion came into play. First, abortion was legalized in case of rape and incest. Then, it got expanded out to abortion on demand, then into the second and third trimesters, then what happens when a baby survives?

I see this with gay “marriage”. It went to approval of civil unions, then gay marriage, then adoption to gays.

So, I think this is the way to go with abortion. If we move to a ban right away, I can’t see it working. However, I see Mississippi just put into place restrictions. I find that more likely to have an effect.

Another policy I think was very helpful was to require sonograms.

Anyway, just one thought.

Some others say, in the meantime, that they have gotten some women to change their minds by standing outside abortion clinics and praying, talking with them, offering them alternatives.

 

[Annie39]

While abortion is still legal, I don’t think a ban like this would work. So, the laws would be one place for people to begin. People would need to vote and write to overturn current policies.

I think one way to approach abortion would be to try to restrict it in stages…

Well, that’s how abortion came into play. First, abortion was legalized in case of rape and incest. Then, it got expanded out to abortion on demand, then into the second and third trimesters, then what happens when a baby survives?

I see this with gay “marriage”. It went to approval of civil unions, then gay marriage, then adoption to gays.

So, I think this is the way to go with abortion. If we move to a ban right away, I can’t see it working. However, I see Mississippi just put into place restrictions. I find that more likely to have an effect.

Another policy I think was very helpful was to require sonograms.

Anyway, just one thought.

Some others say, in the meantime, that they have gotten some women to change their minds by standing outside abortion clinics and praying, talking with them, offering them alternatives.

Hi ClearWater

You make some good points but this thread was began as sort of a spin off to “10 pro-gun myths…” As you noticed I addressed it to one specific person and included others. I logged on to that thread and invited that person, an anti-gun Australian who asserts that Australia is so much safer and has less violence than big bad US due to their strict gun laws. Several months ago I posted information to the contrary. It made no difference then nor does it now. Now she is back stating more or less the same thing so I reposted some of what I had posted the last time. Now she says that “I tired years back of statistics tennis because reality counts far more where peoples lives are concerned”. And peoples lives are concerned when they have no means of self protection.

It seems to me that she is tired of statistics because they prove her wrong. I invited her here to discuss disarming the people who kill babes in the womb. I have no idea if she even read what I wrote but it is clear that her purpose is to disarm people so that they are defenseless. I just wonder how many people would perform abortions if someone invented something that would render the abortionist incapacitated even to the point of death when he tried such a thing. I realize this is science fiction but I still wonder. I invited another person who is also anti-gun. I don’t know if he read what I put here but as you see, he isn’t as anti-violence as he is pro removing our means of self-defense.

Annie

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

I invited another person who is also anti-gun. I don’t know if he read what I put here but as you see, he isn’t as anti-violence as he is pro removing our means of self-defense.

Annie

Good Evening Annie: I don’t understand why you would be interested in my arguments on this matter when you found no purchase in my points on the other. That said, I find the position of being anti abortion and pro gun or anti abortion and pro death penalty to be very curious combinations. My position is rather simple on such matters, in that I am against the harming of all life, as you may recall from when you poked fun at me for being a vegetarian. I think my position is ubiquitous, simple and consistent on matters such as the sanctity of life.

Thank you,
Gary

 

[Annie39]

Good Evening Annie: I don’t understand why you would be interested in my arguments on this matter when you found no purchase in my points on the other. That said, I find the position of being anti abortion and pro gun or anti abortion and pro death penalty to be very curious combinations. My position is rather simple on such matters, in that I am against the harming of all life, as you may recall from when you poked fun at me for being a vegetarian. I think my position is ubiquitous, simple and consistent on matters such as the sanctity of life.

Thank you,
Gary

Hi Gary: You are the only one who is willing to reply to my invite. Me thinks that the other people would not be able to explain why it is that they are against guns but are silent regarding the suction devices that murder babes. I’m astounded that you cannot see the difference between murdering defenseless unborn babes and self defense against aggressors who want to kill a person. In fact, in my fantasy world the babes in the womb would not be defenseless they would somehow be able to take their would be killer out if he tried that little thing. Even though I am personally pro-death penalty for capital offenses my Church has determined that it should not be an option for most cases so I would decline to be on a death penalty jury citing my Church’s teaching.

Annie

BTW do people do the hokey pokey anymore?

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Annie39 Hi Gary: I’m astounded that you cannot see the difference between murdering defenseless unborn babes and self defense against aggressors who want to kill a person.

Hi Annie: I understand why you see a difference between the two. It would be a rather involved endeavor to explain why I don’t. It’s a pointless thing to explain to anyone until such a time as they go looking for it on their own accord. It’s not a thing for me to tell.

In fact, in my fantasy world the babes in the womb would not be defenseless they would somehow be able to take their would be killer out if he tried that little thing.

That’s because you have a fierce love for things like defenseless babies and the like. That’s understandable, and I think it’s a good thing. But I maintain that it’s only a small glimpse of what’s inside you and all around you. Again, it’s a thing I’m not in a position to explain.

Even though I am personally pro-death penalty for capital offenses my Church has determined that it should not be an option for most cases so I would decline to be on a death penalty jury citing my Church’s teaching.

It’s a good thing to be against the death penalty because our Church is against it. It’s a far better thing (I think) to see the reason to be against it.

BTW do people do the hokey pokey anymore?

I don’t know, but I like to think so. Innocence is priceless.

Thanks,
Gary

 

[Annie39]

Hi Annie: I understand why you see a difference between the two. It would be a rather involved endeavor to explain why I don’t. It’s a pointless thing to explain to anyone until such a time as they go looking for it on their own accord. It’s not a thing for me to tell.

That’s because you have a fierce love for things like defenseless babies and the like. That’s understandable, and I think it’s a good thing. But I maintain that it’s only a small glimpse of what’s inside you and all around you. Again, it’s a thing I’m not in a position to explain.

It’s a good thing to be against the death penalty because our Church is against it. It’s a far better thing (I think) to see the reason to be against it.

I don’t know, but I like to think so. Innocence is priceless.

Thanks,
Gary

You write: That’s because you have a fierce love for things like defenseless babies and the like. That’s understandable, and I think it’s a good thing.

I have a fierce love for all the defenseless including you I suppose; agape love that wants you and every one to have a chance in this world. I hope you change your mind on self defense at least until you learn that your opinions and the revealed truth of the Catholic Church just don’t jive. I’d like to see you in heaven.

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

I have a fierce love for all the defenseless including you I suppose; agape love that wants you and every one to have a chance in this world. I hope you change your mind on self defense at least until you learn that your opinions and the revealed truth of the Catholic Church just don’t jive. I’d like to see you in heaven.

Hi Annie: Thank you for your kindness, fierce love and your desire for all people to have a chance. These are very good things to have. That said, while I am unarmed, I don’t see myself as defenseless. I move about freely and without fear.

I don’t see the fact that I don’t own a firearm as being in conflict with Catholic teachings, and if for some reason it should happen that protecting other people is a prerequisite for getting into heaven, then I have protected many hundreds in my time. But on the same token, I don’t believe in a place called heaven. I believe in a state of being that is heaven, so rather than gaining admittance, we simply become. I think it’s what’s inside of us that makes heaven and hell. The Kingdom of God is inside us, but we have to turn it on, and we can’t wait for others to make the first move. The revealed truth is simply our daily lives and how we live them.

All this said, I am grateful for people like you who love and care for others. Your position or mine on such matters as this thing or that are far less important than making a place for others in your heart. And since you seem to have done that, then I would say that we are simply on different paths to the same place. There’s no need for us not to be glad for each other.

Thanks,
Gary

 

[Annie39]

Hi Annie: Thank you for your kindness, fierce love and your desire for all people to have a chance. These are very good things to have. That said, while I am unarmed, I don’t see myself as defenseless. I move about freely and without fear.

I don’t see the fact that I don’t own a firearm as being in conflict with Catholic teachings, and if for some reason it should happen that protecting other people is a prerequisite for getting into heaven, then I have protected many hundreds in my time. But on the same token, I don’t believe in a place called heaven. I believe in a state of being that is heaven, so rather than gaining admittance, we simply become. I think it’s what’s inside of us that makes heaven and hell. The Kingdom of God is inside us, but we have to turn it on, and we can’t wait for others to make the first move. The revealed truth is simply our daily lives and how we live them.

All this said, I am grateful for people like you who love and care for others. Your position or mine on such matters as this thing or that are far less important than making a place for others in your heart. And since you seem to have done that, then I would say that we are simply on different paths to the same place. There’s no need for us not to be glad for each other.

Thanks,
Gary

Hi Gary: you write: I don’t see myself as defenseless. I move about freely and without fear.

IMHO not seeing yourself as defenseless and moving about freely without fear are non sequiturs. Feelings can be deceiving. If you ever get attacked (God forbid) your sense of well being just before could actually do you harm.
And no, I don’t think that the fact that you don’t own a firearm is in conflict with Catholic teaching.

However you write “I don’t believe in a place called heaven. I believe in a state of being that is heaven, so rather than gaining admittance, we simply become. I think it’s what’s inside of us that makes heaven and hell. The Kingdom of God is inside us, but we have to turn it on, and we can’t wait for others to make the first move. The revealed truth is simply our daily lives and how we live them.”

That is in conflict with Catholic teaching. In a sense heaven is within you if you are in the state of grace than you have the Trinity within you. And revealed truth is that which the Holy Spirit revealed to the Church and she teaches us. We don’t actually know what heaven will be like but me thinks that there has to be some sort of place or where would Jesus’ and Mary’s body be?

Annie

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Annie39;Hi Gary: IMHO not seeing yourself as defenseless and moving about freely without fear are non sequiturs. Feelings can be deceiving. If you ever get attacked (God forbid) your sense of well being just before could actually do you harm.
And no, I don’t think that the fact that you don’t own a firearm is in conflict with Catholic teaching.

Hi Annie: I maintain that it’s not really about this life ends or how long it is. I think it’s about how it’s lived. I would rather live it the way I do than to let those of lesser intent cause me to live in fear or to compromise my own inner beauty.

That is in conflict with Catholic teaching. In a sense heaven is within you if you are in the state of grace than you have the Trinity within you.

Annie, it is not in conflict with Catholic teaching that Jesus said that the Kingdom of Heaven is within you, and He didn’t say that it was in a sense. Nor did Jesus say that it was in a sense that we can be one with the Father as He was. You can’t be what you’re not. Our oneness with the Father and with all things is a matter of realization. Nor was it in a sense that Jesus said that whatever we do to the least among us, we also do to Him. Nor was it an empty metaphor when Jesus said that He is the vine and we are the branches. The vine and it’s branches are one thing, not separate things. These things that Jesus said were among the most profound things He said, and yet you don’t hear a lot about it from pulpits, but among the things that Jesus said, they are the exact things we need to know if we want to know Jesus and want to experience heaven.

And revealed truth is that which the Holy Spirit revealed to the Church and she teaches us.

I have no doubt that the truth has been revealed. People walk past it every day and never see it. Each day they miss the destination they seek because they’re busy reading the map, certain that what they seek is somewhere else.

We don’t actually know what heaven will be like but me thinks that there has to be some sort of place or where would Jesus’ and Mary’s body be?

Where He lives is the Kingdom of Heaven. The Kingdom of Heaven is inside you. He is the vine and we are the branches. What we do to the least of us we have done to Him. People who harm other people are unaware of who it is they harm. People who live in fear of other people are unaware of who they themselves are. Collectively, we are Body of Christ.

Ask your priest about what I have just told you. Ask your Bishop. Ask them about what I have just told you. Ask them if it’s true. Give them my name and tell them what I have said. Ask them whether or not you are part of the Body of Christ. And if they say Gary Sheldrake lies, I am here for them to tell.

Thanks,
Gary

 

[LongingSoul]

That is in conflict with Catholic teaching. In a sense heaven is within you if you are in the state of grace than you have the Trinity within you. And revealed truth is that which the Holy Spirit revealed to the Church and she teaches us. We don’t actually know what heaven will be like but me thinks that there has to be some sort of place or where would Jesus’ and Mary’s body be?

Annie

St. John Paul II - on Heaven … “is neither an abstraction not a physical place in the clouds, but a living, personal relationship with the Holy Trinity. It is our meeting with the Father which takes place in the risen Christ through the communion of the Holy Spirit,”

"This final state, however, can be anticipated in some way today in sacramental life, whose centre is the Eucharist, and in the gift of self through fraternal charity. If we are able to enjoy properly the good things that the Lord showers upon us every day, we will already have begun to experience that joy and peace which one day will be completely ours. We know that on this earth everything is subject to limits, but the thought of the “ultimate” realities helps us to live better the “penultimate” realities. We know that as we pass through this world we are called to seek “the things that are above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God” (Col 3:1), in order to be with him in the eschatological fulfilment, when the Spirit will fully reconcile with the Father “all things, whether on earth or in heaven” (Col 1:20).

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM

 

[Madmaxepic]

Some others say, in the meantime, that they have gotten some women to change their minds by standing outside abortion clinics and praying, talking with them, offering them alternatives.

And even this could be banished, I have heard of places actually trying to ban people from standing near abortion clinics to support life.

 

[Annie39]

Hi Annie: I maintain that it’s not really about this life ends or how long it is. I think it’s about how it’s lived. I would rather live it the way I do than to let those of lesser intent cause me to live in fear or to compromise my own inner beauty.

Annie, it is not in conflict with Catholic teaching that Jesus said that the Kingdom of Heaven is within you, and He didn’t say that it was in a sense. Nor did Jesus say that it was in a sense that we can be one with the Father as He was. You can’t be what you’re not. Our oneness with the Father and with all things is a matter of realization. Nor was it in a sense that Jesus said that whatever we do to the least among us, we also do to Him. Nor was it an empty metaphor when Jesus said that He is the vine and we are the branches. The vine and it’s branches are one thing, not separate things. These things that Jesus said were among the most profound things He said, and yet you don’t hear a lot about it from pulpits, but among the things that Jesus said, they are the exact things we need to know if we want to know Jesus and want to experience heaven.

I have no doubt that the truth has been revealed. People walk past it every day and never see it. Each day they miss the destination they seek because they’re busy reading the map, certain that what they seek is somewhere else.

Where He lives is the Kingdom of Heaven. The Kingdom of Heaven is inside you. He is the vine and we are the branches. What we do to the least of us we have done to Him. People who harm other people are unaware of who it is they harm. People who live in fear of other people are unaware of who they themselves are. Collectively, we are Body of Christ.

Ask your priest about what I have just told you. Ask your Bishop. Ask them about what I have just told you. Ask them if it’s true. Give them my name and tell them what I have said. Ask them whether or not you are part of the Body of Christ. And if they say Gary Sheldrake lies, I am here for them to tell.

Thanks,
Gary

Hi Gary. I didn’t want this thread to be steered in the Theological direction so I didn’t do a lot of research I have a url to suggest I’ll post it at the bottom. We are indeed the body of Christ but you have a unique way of interpreting this truth which is not orthodox. The url I suggest will be a start. There is quite a bit more on the internet or maybe you could start a discussion on the philosophy topic on CA.

askacatholic.com/_WebPostings/Answers/2005_04APR/2005AprDoWeBecomeTheBody.cfm

Annie

 

[Annie39]

St. John Paul II - on Heaven … “is neither an abstraction not a physical place in the clouds, but a living, personal relationship with the Holy Trinity. It is our meeting with the Father which takes place in the risen Christ through the communion of the Holy Spirit,”

"This final state, however, can be anticipated in some way today in sacramental life, whose centre is the Eucharist, and in the gift of self through fraternal charity. If we are able to enjoy properly the good things that the Lord showers upon us every day, we will already have begun to experience that joy and peace which one day will be completely ours. We know that on this earth everything is subject to limits, but the thought of the “ultimate” realities helps us to live better the “penultimate” realities. We know that as we pass through this world we are called to seek “the things that are above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God” (Col 3:1), in order to be with him in the eschatological fulfilment, when the Spirit will fully reconcile with the Father “all things, whether on earth or in heaven” (Col 1:20).

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM

I find it interesting that you chose to weigh in on the topic of whether or not Heaven is a place and ignore the real reason that I started this topic. I take it that it is okay for your wonderful country to have instruments that are made for the murder of babes in the womb. You have not posted word one on the subject and yet guns can kill people and can also be used to protect people. It is a tool for good or evil. The suction instruments are made only for evil. I wonder, if my science fiction dream of a tool being made so that each baby about to meet its demise could defend himself meeting like force with force, would you spend as much time insisting that the babies protection be taken away because horrors three abortionist were killed in the same abortuary?

 

[mikekle]

Maybe if enough people kept bothering the companies that decide to mass produce these tools of murder, then maybe they would think twice about manufacturing them?

If an item is used to kill a person, then it is a weapon, and since a person can be charged with 2 counts of murder for killing a pregnant woman, this PROVES the law in general considers the fetus to be a literal person, however they want to use this only when it best suits them, in a murder of a pregnant woman, a double charge will guarantee the person gets the maximum penalty, BUT when it comes to abortion and those employees that work in clinics, they DONT consider a fetus a literal person…I dont know about anyone else, but to me, this is a clear contradiction.

A fetus cant be both, its either a person or is not, the situation should not determine that.

 

[Annie39]

Maybe if enough people kept bothering the companies that decide to mass produce these tools of murder, then maybe they would think twice about manufacturing them?

If an item is used to kill a person, then it is a weapon, and since a person can be charged with 2 counts of murder for killing a pregnant woman, this PROVES the law in general considers the fetus to be a literal person, however they want to use this only when it best suits them, in a murder of a pregnant woman, a double charge will guarantee the person gets the maximum penalty, BUT when it comes to abortion and those employees that work in clinics, they DONT consider a fetus a literal person…I dont know about anyone else, but to me, this is a clear contradiction.

A fetus cant be both, its either a person or is not, the situation should not determine that.

Thank you for your reply. You are exactly right. There have been several threads dealing with pro and anti guns. Guns are a tool to be used for good or evil but the suction device is used only for evil. The child in the womb has no tool for self protection but I have not heard an outcry from the anti-gun folks against the device that is manufactured for one thing, murder. I wonder if the anti-gun folks would decry an invention that those babies could use for self defense on the basis of the fact that it would be used to kill the attackers. (My sifi thought)

I have heard people point to legal gun owners who use their tool for evil (Oscar Pistorius comes to mind) but for every Pistorius there are maybe hundreds of people using the suction tool to end a life and there is nary a peep. It is a horrible thing that happened to Reeva Steenkamp but it is also a horrible thing that happens to unborn babes on a regular basis.

Annie

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Thank you for your reply. You are exactly right. There have been several threads dealing with pro and anti guns. Guns are a tool to be used for good or evil but the suction device is used only for evil. The child in the womb has no tool for self protection but I have not heard an outcry from the anti-gun folks against the device that is manufactured for one thing, murder. I wonder if the anti-gun folks would decry an invention that those babies could use for self defense on the basis of the fact that it would be used to kill the attackers. (My sifi thought)

I have heard people point to legal gun owners who use their tool for evil (Oscar Pistorius comes to mind) but for every Pistorius there are maybe hundreds of people using the suction tool to end a life and there is nary a peep. It is a horrible thing that happened to Reeva Steenkamp but it is also a horrible thing that happens to unborn babes on a regular basis.

Annie

Good morning Annie: If we are to take a stand on the sanctity of life, to me it seems that we need to be consistent. All life is sacred, whether you’re unborn or 96, and regardless of your state of being. This is why I am against abortion, the death penalty, and dead set against gun ownership. I would much rather die the victim of a violent crime than to enter into the cycle of violence of those who would do harm to me. Anyone is capable of responding in kind to kindness or aggression. It doesn’t take a very developed soul to live that way. But our job is in fact to develop our souls, and to raise our level of spiritual being above situational considerations. You don’t become a victor by even playing in this game. There are only losers among those who respond in kind. And that doesn’t mean that we let ourselves get walked on either. It means we get smart.

Thanks,
Gary

 

[Annie39]

Good morning Annie: If we are to take a stand on the sanctity of life, to me it seems that we need to be consistent. All life is sacred, whether you’re unborn or 96, and regardless of your state of being. This is why I am against abortion, the death penalty, and dead set against gun ownership. I would much rather die the victim of a violent crime than to enter into the cycle of violence of those who would do harm to me. Anyone is capable of responding in kind to kindness or aggression. It doesn’t take a very developed soul to live that way. But our job is in fact to develop our souls, and to raise our level of spiritual being above situational considerations. You don’t become a victor by even playing in this game. There are only losers among those who respond in kind. And that doesn’t mean that we let ourselves get walked on either. It means we get smart.

Thanks,
Gary

Before I reply to the bulk of your post, may I ask you on what you base your statement that it is our job to develop our souls?

Annie

 

[mikekle]

Good morning Annie: If we are to take a stand on the sanctity of life, to me it seems that we need to be consistent. All life is sacred, whether you’re unborn or 96, and regardless of your state of being. This is why I am against abortion, the death penalty, and dead set against gun ownership. I would much rather die the victim of a violent crime than to enter into the cycle of violence of those who would do harm to me. Anyone is capable of responding in kind to kindness or aggression. It doesn’t take a very developed soul to live that way. But our job is in fact to develop our souls, and to raise our level of spiritual being above situational considerations. You don’t become a victor by even playing in this game. There are only losers among those who respond in kind. And that doesn’t mean that we let ourselves get walked on either. It means we get smart.

Thanks,
Gary

Well, if you look at current laws on abortion, it is pretty clear the pro-life movement doesnt scare them that much, so in a way, they are walking all over those who believe in life. I am against abortion too, and truly think the church as a whole needs to tell everyone in its parishes to become proactive, and stop abortion, no matter what it takes. I know God will bless this group and will not allow them to fail.

This is what needs to happen, but I realize it wont, and most people that attend mass and call themselves Christian would not want any part of something like that, even if meant changing the laws and saving lives, I think many are simply too worried about worldly consequences, whether it be them being arrested and jailed, or being called names, threatened, etc. They like to say they are pro-life and attend mass, but thats really about as far as many are willing to go to stop abortion, I feel God views people like this as ‘fence sitters’ and/or lukewarm.

The fact is, if ENOUGH people get together and demand something to change, then it most definitely can happen, just will take a whole lot of people in one place at one time.Just imagine if the churches around the country got involved and convinced 100s of 1000s of people to agree to this rebellion…I assume abortions would be halted within a week.

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Before I reply to the bulk of your post, may I ask you on what you base your statement that it is our job to develop our souls?

Annie

Good Evening Annie: To develop spiritually is to develop ones soul, and I think this is an endeavor that requires a good deal of work.

Thank you,
Gary