Anti-Abortion Yet Pro Embryonic Stem Cell Research

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If you normally oppose abortion yet support embryonic stem cell research, could you please explain why? I am not trying to start a big argument–I’m just trying to figure out why people draw the line where they do sometimes.
 
I oppose both, but would guess that it’s a matter in some people’s minds of just exactly when that embryo becomes a person with the rights of a fetus. I suppose it could be (wrongly, I say) rationalized that if the embryo has not achieved “personhood” as has a fetus or a later stage embryo, then it’s OK since it’s not yet a person. 🤷
 
I suspect that it is a “greater good” argument. That is, the embryos already exist; why shouldn’t they be used for the “greater good” of the expected (but not proven) benefits?

That’s why it’s so important to get the word out that there have already been many proven benefits of using both adult stem cells and stem cells from umbilical cord blood, but none from embryonic stem cells.

Wish I could remember some websites to refer you to…

Ruthie
 
If you normally oppose abortion yet support embryonic stem cell research, could you please explain why? I am not trying to start a big argument–I’m just trying to figure out why people draw the line where they do sometimes.
Both are absolutely wrong since they both destroy human life.
 
I suspect that it is a “greater good” argument.
Greater good than what?
That is, the embryos already exist; why shouldn’t they be used for the “greater good” of the expected (but not proven) benefits?
The destruction of human life is not a “good” therefore there cannot be a “greater good”. Any good that can be derived from embryonic research is at the expense of human life. Good ends do not justify the use of means that are intrinsically evil.
 
Even though the child is as good as dead, it’s still not right to use his body as a commodity for the advancement of any materialistic agenda whatsoever, regardless of what “good” might come of it to humanity, because once we start treating human bodies as commodities, we have lost a significant portion of what it means to be human, even from a scientific point of view (which states that one way we know there were early humans is that they were burying their dead instead of consuming them).
 
I suppose it could be (wrongly, I say) rationalized that if the embryo has not achieved “personhood” as has a fetus or a later stage embryo, then it’s OK since it’s not yet a person. 🤷
But such cannot be rationalized. Only through self deception.
 
Here is an excellent source for issues dealing with Embryonic Stem Cell Research and Ethics:
9. Because frozen embryos may one day end up being discarded by somebody, that makes it morally allowable, even laudable, to violate and destroy those embryos.
The moral analysis of what we may permissibly do with an embryo doesn’t depend on its otherwise “going to waste,” nor on the incidental fact that those embryos are “trapped” in liquid nitrogen. If we imagine a coal mine with miners who are permanently trapped inside through no fault of their own, with the certainty that they are all going to die, that would not make it okay to send a remote control robotic device to harvest organs from those miners and cause their demise.
Fr.Tadeusz Pacholczyk credentials are:
As an undergraduate he earned degrees in philosophy, biochemistry, molecular cell biology, and chemistry, and did laboratory research on hormonal regulation of the immune response. He later earned a Ph.D. in Neuroscience from Yale University, where he focused on cloning genes for neurotransmitter transporters which are expressed in the brain. He also worked for several years as a molecular biologist at Massachusetts General Hospital/Harvard Medical School. Fr. Tad studied for 5 years in Rome where he did advanced work in dogmatic theology and in bioethics, examining the question of delayed ensoulment of the human embryo. He has testified before members of the Massachusetts, Wisconsin, Virginia and North Carolina State Legislatures during deliberations over stem cell research and cloning. He has given presentations and participated in roundtables on contemporary bioethics throughout the U.S., Canada, and in Europe. He has done numerous media commentaries, including appearances on CNN International, ABC World News Tonight, and National Public Radio. He is Director of Education for The National Catholic Bioethics Center in Philadelphia and directs the Center’s National Catholic Certification Program in Health Care Ethics.
.
You can read a list of his writing on the subject at this website Making Sense of Bioethics

Here’s an excerpt from the article “Debating the Embryo’s Fate”:
In responding to this argument during our debate, I recounted a little story from when I traveled to the Philippines to give a lecture about stem cells. It was my first time in that country, and I was struck by the contrasts I saw. On the one hand, segments of the Philippine society were doing very well. On the other, I witnessed startling poverty. One day, as we drove along a boulevard lined with people living in hovels made out of cardboard boxes, I noticed a boy, a street child, rummaging through piles of trash for food. His clothes were dirty, and he seemed quite frail. It looked like he did this on a daily basis in order to survive. As I watched him, the rhetorical thought flashed through my mind, patterned on the language of embryonic stem cell advocates: “…he’s so small, so insignificant: what if a cure for Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s and diabetes could be developed to benefit all of suffering mankind, by promoting scientific research that depended on killing just a single little boy like him, who, after all, is living no better than an animal? He’s probably just going to die anyway in his difficult circumstances…” After sharing this Philippine experience with my audience at the debate, I asked them a question: “Could a scientific research program like that ever be ethical?” The obvious answer to that question reminds us how ethics must always come before efficiency. Taking the lives of young humans (whether as little boys or little embryos) cannot be pronounced ethical simply because it might result in huge benefits to older, more powerful, or more wealthy humans. The fact remains that objective moral limits constrain all areas of human endeavor, including the practice of the biological sciences. Whenever the siren-call of healing and progress is blaring in our ears, we are obliged to be particularly attentive to those absolute moral boundaries.
 
While I believe both are evil, it does seem to me abortion is the greater of the two, depending on the circumstance. If, say, research is conducted on an embryo that has already been aborted for other reasons, and in which the researcher had no hand in procuring the abortion, it seems to me the evil, while still grave, is less than deliberately causing an abortion.

It does seem to me, though, that embryonic stem cell research is pretty close to being a medical dead end, and one reallly has to wonder about the motives of those who continue in it.
 
Just curious. When does ensoulment take place? Has the Church spoken authoritively on this matter? If not, I would expect we would err on the side of taking no chances.
 
Just curious. When does ensoulment take place? Has the Church spoken authoritively on this matter? If not, I would expect we would err on the side of taking no chances.
I’ve been taught that it takes place at the moment of fertilization, when the egg is “enlivened” by the sperm and it becomes an independent one-celled human being.
 
Just curious. When does ensoulment take place? Has the Church spoken authoritively on this matter? If not, I would expect we would err on the side of taking no chances.
No, the Church has not defined the exact moment of ensoulment. Here’s a clip from Fr. Tad’s article:
The Declaration on Procured Abortion from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in 1974 phrases the matter with considerable precision:
This declaration expressly leaves aside the question of the moment when the spiritual soul is infused. There is not a unanimous tradition on this point and authors are as yet in disagreement. For some it dates from the first instant; for others it could not at least precede nidation [implantation in the uterus]
. It is not within the competence of science to decide between these views, because the existence of an immortal soul is not a question in its field. It is a philosophical problem from which our moral affirmation remains independent
.

…We must recognize that it is God’s business as to precisely when He ensouls embryos. We do not need an answer to this fascinating and speculative theological question, like counting angels on the head of a pin, in order to grasp the fundamental truth that human embryos are inviolable and deserving of unconditional respect at every stage of their existence. Rather, this moral affirmation follows directly on the heels of the scientific data regarding early human development, which affirms that every person on the face of the planet is, so to speak, an “overgrown embryo”. Hence, it is not necessary to know exactly when God ensouls the embryo, because, as I sometimes point out in half-jest, even if it were true that an embryo did not receive her soul until she graduated from law school, that would not make it OK to kill her by forcibly extracting tissues or organs prior to graduation.

…What a human embryo actually is, even at its earliest and most undeveloped stage, already makes it the only kind of entity capable of receiving the gift of an immortal soul from the hand of God. No other animal or plant embryo can receive this gift; indeed, no other entity in the universe can receive this gift. Hence, the early human embryo is never merely biological tissue, like a group of liver cells in a petri dish; at a minimum, such an embryo, with all its internal structure and directionality, represents the privileged sanctuary of one meant to develop as a human person.

…Some scientists and philosophers will attempt to argue that if an early embryo might not yet have received its immortal soul from God, it must be OK to destroy that embryo for research since he or she would not yet be a person. But it would actually be the reverse; that is to say, it would be more immoral to destroy an embryo that had not yet received an immortal soul than to destroy an ensouled embryo. Why? Because the immortal soul is the principle by which that person could come to an eternal destiny with God in heaven, so the one who destroyed the embryo, in this scenario, would preclude that young human from ever receiving an immortal soul (or becoming a person) and making his or her way to God. This would be the gravest of evils, as the stem cell researcher would forcibly derail the entire eternal design of God over that unique and unrepeatable person, via an action that would be, in some sense, worse than murder. The human person, then, even in his or her most incipient form as an embryonic human being, must always be safeguarded in an absolute and unconditional way, and speculation about the timing of personhood cannot alter this fundamental truth.

IMO the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception is entirely relevant here, as is usually the case when pondering the role of Our Lady in life issues.
 
To me, embryonic stem cell research seems more evil than abortion. Saying you do not have a soul from the beginning seems to be a circular arguement a lot of people use to justify the research and to justify abortion. If you think your soul enters your body at the third month or the third week or when you a born, what does that make you before hand? An animal. It is the soul that makes a human. God does not create human beings without souls. And Jesus life in the Bible begins with his conception. That is all the proof I need that your soul is infused at the moment of conception.
 
I really can’t think that one is more evil than the other. The so-called “potential” of embryonic stem-cell research can be used to uphold the “good” (NOT!) of abortion.

Although I also think - not sure if I’m right - that most embryos used in this horrible research are “leftovers” from in-vitro fertilization. To me, that just points up the evil of in-vitro fertilization.

I just wish they’d figure it out! With adult stem cells being used with success, and those from umbilical cord blood ditto, and no success from dead babies’ stem cells… I can see the writing on the wall!

Ruthie
 
And Jesus life in the Bible begins with his conception. That is all the proof I need that your soul is infused at the moment of conception.
And when we profess as in the Nicene Creed that Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost, we don’t say that Mary already had some cancerous tissue growing within her that later on became Jesus.
 
And when we profess as in the Nicene Creed that Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost…
This is also my point about the Immaculate Conception. The Dogma of the Immaculate Conception says:
…by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, for the honor of the Holy and undivided Trinity, for the glory and adornment of the Virgin Mother of God, for the exaltation of the Catholic Faith, and for the furtherance of the Catholic religion, by the authority of Jesus Christ our Lord, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by our own:
We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful.
Hence, if anyone shall dare – which God forbid! – to think otherwise than as has been defined by us, let him know and understand that he is condemned by his own judgment; that he has suffered shipwreck in the faith; that he has separated from the unity of the Church; and that, furthermore, by his own action he incurs the penalties established by law if he should dare to express in words or writing or by any other outward means the errors he thinks in his heart.
Ineffabilis Deus
Apostolic Constitution issued by Pope Pius IX on December 8, 1854.
It doesn’t say she was born without sin, it says "in the first instance of her conception " she was without sin.

Pondering and meditating on this dogma should be a great help to us in coming to an understanding about the infusion of the spiritual soul of a human.
 
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