Anti-Catholic friend

[adamhovey1988]

Hello, I have already had the privilege of talking to Mr. Staples (you know him as Mr. Tim Staples about this). Anyway, I have a friend. (Kind of), at one point she and I were very close, I don’t want to go into too much detail (for her privacy and mine), but she ended up getting married to a guy I did not exactly get along with. Now, he has died, he died almost two years ago. This girl is a “former” Catholic and is much the reason I became Catholic. She wanted to be Confirmed, and she seemed to seriously be convinced Catholicism was true (she was Baptized as a child, but never really practiced). Eventually, she decided she did not wish to be Catholic, and was Baptized the third time (Ironically, she told me the second one, which was a believer’s baptism, was not her choice) a few years ago. Now, I tried to reconcile with her over some of the mean things her husband and I have said to each other (and did for a while), but I am not really sure where this anti-Catholic attitude comes from. I have had Catholic Apologists more seasoned than I debate her, but it seems to be to no avail. The types of things she says, like that the Pope is the Anti-Christ, and that the Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon, I can easily refute, but nothing seems to get through to her. I would also like to point out she seems to have an unhealthy obsession with Kirk Cameron and his Growing Pains ministry, as well as that of Ray Comfort (whom I have actually debated via Facebook after he posted something completely false about Pope Francis. And I called him out on it). Any and all help would be appreciated. Thanks
-Adam

 

[robwar]

I sounds like you have had a long history of back and forth with her. To be honest with you, I think you need to call it a day with her and move on from her. There isn’t a magic wand that anyone can wave now and make her come back to being Catholic and not what she had now some anti-Catholic nut. I would take all these attempts at trying to be with her and they didn’t work our as a sign that this isn’t meant to be and it is time to move on from her as a friend.

 

[pianistclare]

I sounds like you have had a long history of back and forth with her. To be honest with you, I think you need to call it a day with her and move on from her. There isn’t a magic wand that anyone can wave now and make her come back to being Catholic and not what she had now some anti-Catholic nut. I would take all these attempts at trying to be with her and they didn’t work our as a sign that this isn’t meant to be and it is time to move on from her as a friend.

This^^^. My first thought was “some friend”.
If she cannot respect your faith, but she expects you to put up with her negative opinions on it?
She’s not a friend, dear. Knock the dust off your sandals.

 

[adamhovey1988]

I am very careful about calling myself a “devout” Catholic. Practicing, yes. Devout, no. Believing, yes. Devout, no. I feel like devout can sound kind of arrogant. That is not to say that is their intention, in fact, I don’t think it is most of the time. May I ask which devout Catholic said this about the Pope? Inquring minds would like to know! (I do not doubt you on this point, this seems to be really prevalent in some of the radical Catholic reactionary communities)

 

[Vanez]

Hello, I have already had the privilege of talking to Mr. Staples (you know him as Mr. Tim Staples about this). Anyway, I have a friend. (Kind of), at one point she and I were very close, I don’t want to go into too much detail (for her privacy and mine), but she ended up getting married to a guy I did not exactly get along with. Now, he has died, he died almost two years ago. This girl is a “former” Catholic and is much the reason I became Catholic. She wanted to be Confirmed, and she seemed to seriously be convinced Catholicism was true (she was Baptized as a child, but never really practiced). Eventually, she decided she did not wish to be Catholic, and was Baptized the third time (Ironically, she told me the second one, which was a believer’s baptism, was not her choice) a few years ago. Now, I tried to reconcile with her over some of the mean things her husband and I have said to each other (and did for a while), but I am not really sure where this anti-Catholic attitude comes from. I have had Catholic Apologists more seasoned than I debate her, but it seems to be to no avail. The types of things she says, like that the Pope is the Anti-Christ, and that the Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon, I can easily refute, but nothing seems to get through to her. I would also like to point out she seems to have an unhealthy obsession with Kirk Cameron and his Growing Pains ministry, as well as that of Ray Comfort (whom I have actually debated via Facebook after he posted something completely false about Pope Francis. And I called him out on it). Any and all help would be appreciated. Thanks
-Adam

Well, anti Catholic? She doesn’t even seem to know what she wants. Three times baptism… maybe she is in her journey of searching for the truth. One can be doubtful while still searching.

I don’t know kirk cameron and growing pains ministry, tho

 

[adamhovey1988]

For the rest of y’all: I understand what you’re saying, and I actually no longer talk to her (not really my decision), but I do pray for her. I could use all the Apologetic materials in the world, but until her heart is opened to it, I can’t really do anything. Still, really difficult not to feel stuck. (Sometimes she talks to me out of nowhere after we’ve gone a while without talking, I have known her since I was in high school, met when we were 17, so yeah, almost ten years)

 

[adamhovey1988]

Well, anti Catholic? She doesn’t even seem to know what she wants. Three times baptism… maybe she is in her journey of searching for the truth. One can be doubtful while still searching.

I don’t know kirk cameron and growing pains ministry, tho

I know I shouldn’t feel this way, but I do feel like it was kind of my fault. She asked me questions about the Catholic Faith (before I become Catholic, we were actually going to classes together), and I could not answer them. I was learning the same as she was. I feel like if I was able to defend better then, she would not have fallen into what she has now.

 

[the_phoenix]

I had to give up an anti-Catholic “friend” who was a Jehovah’s Witness. As of now, I pray for the conversion of her and her family, but we’re no longer friends. It’s sad but that’s life.

…

Edited on reading a later post:

I was friends with this JW on and off for over 20 years. Every once in awhile she would “shun” me … and would never tell me why, but then she called me out of the blue and acted like nothing happened and wanted to get back together as friends. Eventually I had enough and quietly unfriended her and did not answer her next phone call.

…

 

[adamhovey1988]

Sometimes I feel like that’s all I can do is pray. One thing about this though, is we’ll go a very long time without talking. Out of the blue, I’ll get something, usually an E-Mail (has been Facebook messages, but I no longer have a Facebook) and asks questions about me. Not about religion at first, but like she legitimately wants to know how I am doing. I have told her straight up I am praying for her to come to the Church (I’ve been doing that daily for a couple of months now), so she knows how I feel about it. I should probably mention she has a three year old daughter (remember, she is a widow), and I honestly feel like I am more worried about her daughter than I am about her. (Don’t get me wrong; I am worried about them both)

 

[pianistclare]

Sometimes I feel like that’s all I can do is pray. One thing about this though, is we’ll go a very long time without talking. Out of the blue, I’ll get something, usually an E-Mail (has been Facebook messages, but I no longer have a Facebook) and asks questions about me. Not about religion at first, but like she legitimately wants to know how I am doing. I have told her straight up I am praying for her to come to the Church (I’ve been doing that daily for a couple of months now), so she knows how I feel about it. I should probably mention she has a three year old daughter (remember, she is a widow), and I honestly feel like I am more worried about her daughter than I am about her. (Don’t get me wrong; I am worried about them both)

Maybe she’s interested in you.

 

[adamhovey1988]

Maybe she’s interested in you.

Remember how I said “not about religion”? Well yeah, that usually changes if we go continuously talking for a few weeks. Her mother is a “Former” Catholic, her Stepdad as far as I know is an Evangelical Protestant, but I don’t think he’s ever been anything else, and her father is an Atheist. I came from a largely non-church going family (except when I was younger). All of her father’s side of her family is Catholic, but she has very little contact with them. Remember, she is widowed, she starting getting like this before she got married though. She used to be critical of Kirk Cameron, so I am confused by that one (for those not in the know, Kirk Cameron has done vehemently Anti Catholic work with Ray Comfort). I am a little sure why I should accept Kirk Cameron as a theologian, or for that fact why she does.

 

[GEddie]

OP:

Sometime grief (over the husband’s death ITC) turns to anger, or resentment, because there is nowhere else for it to go.

Add to that the history of conflict, and it may well be that this friendship has run its course.

FWIW, I +1 the one who said it was time to “move on from her.” All human associations come to an end anyways.

ICXC NIKA

 

[robwar]

For the rest of y’all: I understand what you’re saying, and I actually no longer talk to her (not really my decision), but I do pray for her. I could use all the Apologetic materials in the world, but until her heart is opened to it, I can’t really do anything. Still, really difficult not to feel stuck. (Sometimes she talks to me out of nowhere after we’ve gone a while without talking, I have known her since I was in high school, met when we were 17, so yeah, almost ten years)

Like I said, it is time to move on from her. Pray for her like you are but you need to give this up and find someone else. 10 years, a marriage, bouncing around to different Churches, once Catholic now not. There are many more stable people to be interested in her and this back and forth from you to others including a marriage signals that she is using you are a pillow to cry on and nothing more than that. I would end the contact with her.

 

[adamhovey1988]

OP:

Sometime grief (over the husband’s death ITC) turns to anger, or resentment, because there is nowhere else for it to go.

Add to that the history of conflict, and it may well be that this friendship has run its course.

FWIW, I +1 the one who said it was time to “move on from her.” All human associations come to an end anyways.

ICXC NIKA

I don’t doubt there’s some of that there, but remember, she became Anti-Catholic before she was married, and seemed worst whilst her husband was still alive. I did not get along with her husband, but I did in fact go to his funeral. To the best of my knowledge he’d never been Catholic, so I was not really angry at him over his views of the Church (his were out of ignorance). As for her, I just thought she should know better. I don’t think she believes in Purgatory, but I have assured her that I do pray for her, her daughter, and the repose of her late husband’s soul.

 

[angell1]

sounds like she has a lot of problems to sort through and doesn’t realy know what she wants

not really sure what to tell you. I don’t if dumping her completely is a good idea, in case she does need help later on.

that being said, no need to overwhelm yourself with her problems, I think

and it’s not your fault she became the way she did. you are not responsible for whether or not she’s catholic especially if it was something you were trying to figure out yourself at the time

 

[adamhovey1988]

Just to get a little deeper in, I should point out she is an ex-girlfriend. Which I know complicates things for the both of us. Now, she has a boyfriend. And I am not interested in a romantic relationship with, well, anyone, at the moment. I know she had a boyfriend, and for the longest time she would not tell me who it was. And when I found out, I was angry. Not because she had a boyfriend, but because when I did finally find out who it was I didn’t see it as that big of a deal. I told her (and this was my honest thought), that it may not be me that has the problem. (She has been kind of odd with her attitude with me, very inconsistent pretty much the whole time I have known her). I tried to talk to her at school (she and I were both college students at the time, I still am, and I think she actually has a few degrees), and she ended up being very rude to me. So, via a mutual friend (which is another story altogether) she apologised to me. I don’t see why she couldn’t just tell me she was sorry, and admittedly, I have not always treated her with charity. Again, it’s not just her being a widow, or her having a daughter, not telling me about her boyfriend, etc. It’s about her soul.

 

[otjm]

I don’t doubt there’s some of that there, but remember, she became Anti-Catholic before she was married, and seemed worst whilst her husband was still alive. I did not get along with her husband, but I did in fact go to his funeral. To the best of my knowledge he’d never been Catholic, so I was not really angry at him over his views of the Church (his were out of ignorance). As for her, I just thought she should know better. I don’t think she believes in Purgatory, but I have assured her that I do pray for her, her daughter, and the repose of her late husband’s soul.

This is probably going to come across as harsh (before anyone else fires back or PM’s me about how harsh I am). However, once in a while speaking plainly avoids the issues of circling around Jones’ barn.

This woman, to whom you cannot seem to let go, may have been baptized Catholic but it appears that she was a Teflon Catholic - nothing stuck.

And from the comments made of her history, she seems to have no real grounding in faith of any sort, but bounces from one point to another with about as much discrimination as a sick goose. As in, none.

She has some form of attachment to you, but one that is not of a depth that a real friendship should have, let alone a prospective wife (and maybe I am reading something between the lines which are not there - but that is my guess). And by that, I am assuming you are male (and the handle would seem to indicate that).

There is an old phrase about relationships which have little or no solid base, and are in general somewhere between not productive to either party, to counterproductive for both. That phrase is that the two keep coming back to each other like a dog to its vomit. I am sorry that is so graphic, but it really gets down to a fair analysis of the types of relationships that are not only not going anywhere, but are also damaging in the long run.

You cannot convert her, and she is not looking for conversion. The former is not within your power, and the latter is a major sign.

It is well and good to pray for her. And from your description, that is the only thing that is well and good. You have nothing of significant value to give her; had you anything, she would not play the come hither, go away routine.

And she has nothing to give you, except to keep leading you around by the nose like a puppy chasing a treat. You keep hoping, and she shows up just often enough to recharge that hope. There is a phrase which I will modify: hope in one hand and pour sand in the other, and see which one fills up first. She is a slow poison to you because she distracts you, annoys you, gets your hopes up, dashes your hope, cause loss of sleep, and then you start all over and around you go again.

Remember the old phrase about repeating things? Doing the same thing over and over again and hoping for a different result is a sign of insanity.

I will presume you are not insane; but if you go back to this pattern, I will maintain the right to withdraw that opinion.

If part of her family is Catholic, and she is maintaining the directions she has traveled, are you listening? It is coming through load and clear on this end. so is everything else you describe. You don’t need an expert to convert her (they couldn’t anyway), and she does not want to convert.

Time to man up and move on.

 

[ClearWater]

Hello, I have already had the privilege of talking to Mr. Staples (you know him as Mr. Tim Staples about this). Anyway, I have a friend. (Kind of), at one point she and I were very close, I don’t want to go into too much detail (for her privacy and mine), but she ended up getting married to a guy I did not exactly get along with. Now, he has died, he died almost two years ago. This girl is a “former” Catholic and is much the reason I became Catholic. She wanted to be Confirmed, and she seemed to seriously be convinced Catholicism was true (she was Baptized as a child, but never really practiced). Eventually, she decided she did not wish to be Catholic, and was Baptized the third time (Ironically, she told me the second one, which was a believer’s baptism, was not her choice) a few years ago. Now, I tried to reconcile with her over some of the mean things her husband and I have said to each other (and did for a while), but I am not really sure where this anti-Catholic attitude comes from. I have had Catholic Apologists more seasoned than I debate her, but it seems to be to no avail. The types of things she says, like that the Pope is the Anti-Christ, and that the Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon, I can easily refute, but nothing seems to get through to her. I would also like to point out she seems to have an unhealthy obsession with Kirk Cameron and his Growing Pains ministry, as well as that of Ray Comfort (whom I have actually debated via Facebook after he posted something completely false about Pope Francis. And I called him out on it). Any and all help would be appreciated. Thanks
-Adam

You can go through all the arguments, but that doesn’t mean at the end of the day that anyone will change. I really doubt that, even if you debate superbly, come well versed and knowledgeable that you will change her mind.

To me, you’re not going to change her, and she’s not going to change you. If you would like to have a friendship despite differences in your respective faiths, why not change the subject, call a “truce” to agree that you disagree, and instead, focus on what ya’ all still have in common?

I have had times I’ve tried other faiths. What has brought me back has NEVER been someone arguing with me. To me, example was probably one of the greatest influences, and probably still is.

I remember when I was away from the faiths, 2 Catholics in my life, and one Christian were good to me. They LIVED their faith!

Anyway, the Catholics would invite me but not really pressure me, or argue.

Ultimately, it was their quiet example which had an impact on me…the way they …said grace before meals, seemed to try to lead good lives, be a good friend to me.

I had once where I had a really bad experience with the faith, stayed away from the Catholic Church for about 10 years. I feel sort of like that again, now.

Today, I had someone at the hospital, give me a sandwich, fruit, and coffee. I was heading over after getting fasting labwork to get something to eat.

Anyway, it actually meant a lot to me that a stranger did this for me. I asked what group she represented. She just said they were Catholic, and although I presently don´t know what I believe, it made me feel better about Catholicism, in general. I guess Catholicism would be the same, whether she gave me a sandwich or not, but sometimes, it’s something simple that moves someone to…convert, revert, etc.

I would say to forget about winning arguments. How often have you been persuaded to do anything by an argument? I find example MUCH more persuasive.

Mother Teresa often worked with people of other faiths, and she encouraged Muslims to be better Muslims, Buddhists to be better Buddhists, etc.

Now, I realize we’re on CAF, but it’s just my experience that I find actions greater than words, anyway. I also don’t know whether logic is ultimately why we follow a faith or not.

I had one person I talked to who joined a Christian faith, because she thought “fellowship” was important, for instance.

I would say to forget your differences and focus on what you have in common, which is actually MUCH greater than your differences! God bless you!

 

[adamhovey1988]

This is probably going to come across as harsh (before anyone else fires back or PM’s me about how harsh I am). However, once in a while speaking plainly avoids the issues of circling around Jones’ barn.

This woman, to whom you cannot seem to let go, may have been baptized Catholic but it appears that she was a Teflon Catholic - nothing stuck.

And from the comments made of her history, she seems to have no real grounding in faith of any sort, but bounces from one point to another with about as much discrimination as a sick goose. As in, none.

She has some form of attachment to you, but one that is not of a depth that a real friendship should have, let alone a prospective wife (and maybe I am reading something between the lines which are not there - but that is my guess). And by that, I am assuming you are male (and the handle would seem to indicate that).

There is an old phrase about relationships which have little or no solid base, and are in general somewhere between not productive to either party, to counterproductive for both. That phrase is that the two keep coming back to each other like a dog to its vomit. I am sorry that is so graphic, but it really gets down to a fair analysis of the types of relationships that are not only not going anywhere, but are also damaging in the long run.

You cannot convert her, and she is not looking for conversion. The former is not within your power, and the latter is a major sign.

It is well and good to pray for her. And from your description, that is the only thing that is well and good. You have nothing of significant value to give her; had you anything, she would not play the come hither, go away routine.

And she has nothing to give you, except to keep leading you around by the nose like a puppy chasing a treat. You keep hoping, and she shows up just often enough to recharge that hope. There is a phrase which I will modify: hope in one hand and pour sand in the other, and see which one fills up first. She is a slow poison to you because she distracts you, annoys you, gets your hopes up, dashes your hope, cause loss of sleep, and then you start all over and around you go again.

Remember the old phrase about repeating things? Doing the same thing over and over again and hoping for a different result is a sign of insanity.

I will presume you are not insane; but if you go back to this pattern, I will maintain the right to withdraw that opinion.

If part of her family is Catholic, and she is maintaining the directions she has traveled, are you listening? It is coming through load and clear on this end. so is everything else you describe. You don’t need an expert to convert her (they couldn’t anyway), and she does not want to convert.

Time to man up and move on.

Actually, I don’t think you came across as harsh at all. If it sounds like she’s confusing y’all (or confusing her self) then I think this may be. Interestingly, I am listening to a homily about a suitable partner. And I think the first thing he says in the homily is that a partner should be “compatible”. Yeah, not really at that point. You know at first, when she decided she didn’t want to be Catholic, she wasn’t really Anti-Catholic. I don’t know what she was. I can’t live her life, and point of fact, I don’t really want to. Praying sometimes is the only thing you can do. I’m not insane (at least I don’t think I am), but I think we may all be driven to madness is similar situations. I don’t come from a particularly religious family, so Catholics witnessing to me did not happen very often. (My family is not Anti-Religious, save for my militant Atheist elder brother, just not religious). I’ll just don what I’ve been doing. Working and praying. I am still curious why anyone would be attracted to Kirk Cameron’s theology though. Maybe a topic for another post.

 

[ClearWater]

This is probably going to come across as harsh (before anyone else fires back or PM’s me about how harsh I am). However, once in a while speaking plainly avoids the issues of circling around Jones’ barn.

This woman, to whom you cannot seem to let go, may have been baptized Catholic but it appears that she was a Teflon Catholic - nothing stuck.

And from the comments made of her history, she seems to have no real grounding in faith of any sort, but bounces from one point to another with about as much discrimination as a sick goose. As in, none.

She has some form of attachment to you, but one that is not of a depth that a real friendship should have, let alone a prospective wife (and maybe I am reading something between the lines which are not there - but that is my guess). And by that, I am assuming you are male (and the handle would seem to indicate that).

There is an old phrase about relationships which have little or no solid base, and are in general somewhere between not productive to either party, to counterproductive for both. That phrase is that the two keep coming back to each other like a dog to its vomit. I am sorry that is so graphic, but it really gets down to a fair analysis of the types of relationships that are not only not going anywhere, but are also damaging in the long run.

You cannot convert her, and she is not looking for conversion. The former is not within your power, and the latter is a major sign.

It is well and good to pray for her. And from your description, that is the only thing that is well and good. You have nothing of significant value to give her; had you anything, she would not play the come hither, go away routine.

And she has nothing to give you, except to keep leading you around by the nose like a puppy chasing a treat. You keep hoping, and she shows up just often enough to recharge that hope. There is a phrase which I will modify: hope in one hand and pour sand in the other, and see which one fills up first. She is a slow poison to you because she distracts you, annoys you, gets your hopes up, dashes your hope, cause loss of sleep, and then you start all over and around you go again.

Remember the old phrase about repeating things? Doing the same thing over and over again and hoping for a different result is a sign of insanity.

I will presume you are not insane; but if you go back to this pattern, I will maintain the right to withdraw that opinion.

If part of her family is Catholic, and she is maintaining the directions she has traveled, are you listening? It is coming through load and clear on this end. so is everything else you describe. You don’t need an expert to convert her (they couldn’t anyway), and she does not want to convert.

Time to man up and move on.

Key to having a friendship would be NOT to discuss religion any more. In my opinion, you would both need to agree on this in order to continue, and if either of you “slipped”, you would need to remind each other, “Remember…we agreed we would not talk about religion”.

However, I wouldn’t necessarily say someone of a different faith couldn’t be a good friend.

Here’s something Thomas Jefferson said about religion:

brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasjeff389008.html

However, if you both can’t leave religion behind and find other topics to discuss, it will probably put a strain on your friendship over the long haul, to a point you may be unable to be friends any more, which would be a shame.