Anti-Catholic: Harvest Bible Chapel

  • Thread starter Thread starter SyroMalankara
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Gotta love the so-called “non-denominationals”, they love to target the Catholic Church, even though anyone would basic knowledge (such as a pastor) has to know that even mainstream protestants (Anglican, Lutheran, Methodist, etc) share many of these beliefs with Catholics; and the Orthodox Churches share even more.

If they are not Anti-Catholic, then why is the class is titled this way? Why target the Catholic Church, and not your fellow protestants “in error”?

harvestbiblechapel.org/event.aspx?event_id=338416&site_id=10780

store.harvestbiblechapel.org/p-2916-biblical-answers-to-catholic-questions-booklet.aspx

store.harvestbiblechapel.org/p-2868-biblical-answers-to-catholic-questions.aspx
Here’s their “history”…

HARVEST BIBLE CHAPEL | 1988
Eighteen people from across the northwest suburbs gathered to form a new church. They had a vision for proclaiming the authority of the Word of God without apology, for lifting high the name of Jesus through worship, for believing firmly in the power of prayer, and for sharing the good news of Jesus with boldness. Harvest Bible Chapel was born on September 18, 1988 with James MacDonald serving as Senior Pastor.

Here’s OUR history…

THE CATHOLIC CHURCH | 33 AD
The Son of God gathered Twelve men from across Galilee to form a new Church. Jesus had a Mission - sent by the Father to Redeem the human race through His Holy Sacrifice on the Cross. The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church was born at Pentecost, 33 AD with Peter (The Rock) as Christ’s appointed pastor/shepherd.

This Mr. MacDonald certainly has a “vision”. Sadly (for him), Christ’s Church will be alive and well long after he and his merry band of “visionaries” have been consigned to the dustbin of history.

I wonder who ordained this guy? Did the other seventeen choose him? In our Church; Jesus chose the first ministers/priests/bishops… they did not choose Him. Seems to me these people have it bass ackwards.
I’m saying that there are plenty of books written by Catholics shooting down the beliefs that Protestants have. In fact, the whole point is so that Catholics can bring Protestants to the “fullness of faith.” It’s no different.
There IS a difference… Can you guess what it is? Both can’t be right, can they?
 
Ok, he claims to be Christian.

But on the main point, let’s face it, you guys are the big dogs, by far. That’s mainly why they go after you. Usually, we’re just collateral damage, because we reside on the same sacramental “block” as you do.

Jon
Fair enough.
 
For the most part Catholics are very quiet about their Faith; you’re right. It was so hard for me as a young Evangelical to know what they believed because they would never talk to me about it. So your question; “How many Catholics have shared their Faith with you?” None.
I’d say this is a pretty valid observation, but that it exposes both strengths and weaknesses of both groups.

Evangelicalism (and I ALWAYS get in trouble for generalizing, so don’t nitpick please) tends to focus on salvation as an EVENT in a life, not the outcome of a life. Thus there is a very heavy emphasis in Christian fellowship on “witnessing” to unbelievers that they might “get saved” through that witness. This view tends to result in the sort of trolling behavior that is often called “proselytizing.” It’s more often insulting and irritating to listeners than it is an effective means of evangelization. While it certainly does snare low hanging fruit from time to time, a closer look at those sorts of converts usually shows that they had a much longer term experience of more subtle evangelization BEFORE their “born again” experience at the occurrence of witnessing. I’d agree that catholics tend to be a bit soft spoken about faith in public life to the point of a fault. Some of this is historic and cultural in that for the first 200 years or so of this country, being outspokenly catholic was enough to get you ostracized from WASP society (business and social). So you kept your mouth shut in public and let your life speak without words. The cultural disparagement has changed rather considerable, but that imperfect attitude does tend to remain in catholic culture.

Catholicism comprehends salvation to be the outcome of a lifetime relationship with Christ through Grace rather than a fixed moment in that life. One largely positive effect of that difference is that catholic evangelization is more example driven and less ego driven (I’ve actually had evangelicals ask me how many people I’ve “brought to Christ” as if we were comparing bench press numbers!). The catholic approach tends to assume that surrendering to Grace makes real and substantially positive changes in the lives of believers that other people will notice and ask about. It’s then that we are effective in evangelization. That’s not an excuse for never talking about our faith and I’ll grant your criticism that most catholics are far TOO private about their beliefs. But I will stand by the conviction that evangelization via life example is far more effective than preaching.
 
Harvest Bible Chapel has classes for everything each day. They want Church to be a daily routine and not a weekly one.

They have Youth groups, young adult groups, senior groups, men’s groups, women’s groups, unexpected pregnancy groups, alcoholic groups, small groups once a week, church wide prayer once a month, Evangelism classes, 3-4 messages on weekends… They have so much.
The Catholic Church has Mass everyday…not just once a week.

The problem with these kind of churches is they spread hate, discrimination, prejudice on something they have no idea about.

If you want to know know about the Catholic Church, go to the the Catholic Church…not a church run by people who say they do!
Read some books written by Protestants who became Catholics. Maybe, they can explain it from both sides.
Rome Sweet Home, Born Fundamentalist Born Again Catholic…

There is one Church who just celebrated its birthday on Pentecost… started in 33AD, not in the 1500s, 16…1988… and not 30,000 churches later.
 
I grow tired of having to defend my faith but that is what the Lord has called us to do…spread His word.

I think many Catholics are silent because the Church is always attacked and most people I know, me included, do not like to argue and defend. This coupled with the fact that we have a generation (possibly 2) that have not been catechized well. Many people are lazy too and just go to church and think that is all they need to do 🤷

dronald is correct in the fact that many Catholics just do not talk about their faith. It might be for the above reasons. I have rarely talked about my faith outside of people I know who are Catholic. Since coming back from my hiatus, I am a real nightmare…lol. I have always defended when I over heard conversations, say at work, and they were spouting falsehoods. Even when I wasn’t going to Mass it bothered me that so many people were so ill informed. But outside of that I just was “Catholic” and lived my life.

I have several non-denom friends and they love to make passive agressive comments about the Catholic Church. They are good Christians who are just mis-informed. They don’t research anything they hear from a pastor or another Christian or a FB comment and just take it as truth. I have had to correct them and show them biblically why we believe what we believe. Some things they are beginning to understand and some things they just want to hold on to 🤷 Now instead of bashing Catholics they say something like "Catholics are good people but they are mislead by the corrupt leaders :rolleyes:

It’s a learning process and praying for this individual pastor will do more than getting into a heated debate with him.
 
I think many Catholics are silent because the Church is always attacked and most people I know, me included, do not like to argue and defend.
I guess it depends where you live because it is not like that in the south…

ncregister.com/daily-news/protestant-south-becoming-a-new-catholic-stronghold?utm_source=feedly

Dialogue is the key but once it becomes arguing it’s time to move on.
This coupled with the fact that we have a generation (possibly 2) that have not been catechized well. Many people are lazy too and just go to church and think that is all they need to do 🤷
I agree it was once like that and still is to some degree but it is changing with the help of Catholic radio. Also many parishes (at least in my area) have apologetic classes. And more and more Catholics are involved in Bible studies and see the Truth of the Catholic Church in the Bible.

Another reason is that many see the Catholic Church holding fast to the teachings of Jesus Christ while many protestant denominations have women ordination, accept homosexual marriage, contraception and in some cases even abortion never mind the many interpretations of God’s Word. So we should be ready to share our Faith when someone is inquiring about the Catholic Church
]I have several non-denom friends and they love to make passive agressive comments about the Catholic Church.
Just say… If you have questions about Jesus Christ and the Church that He founded I will be happy answer and if I don’t know I will get the answer for you.
 
I’m saying there’s wackos in every group and everyone’s guilty.
Relative Christianity then?

As long as you can find dirt in any given denomination then there is really no difference?

Where do we draw the line, dronald? Who gets to draw the line?

What are you personally accountable for with the knowledge you have gathered? With the revelations you have been given?
 
Relative Christianity then?

As long as you can find dirt in any given denomination then there is really no difference?

Where do we draw the line, dronald? Who gets to draw the line?

What are you personally accountable for with the knowledge you have gathered? With the revelations you have been given?
Huh? I’m saying you can’t point at the members of other Religions when yours does the same thing.
 
I guess it depends where you live because it is not like that in the south…

ncregister.com/daily-news/protestant-south-becoming-a-new-catholic-stronghold?utm_source=feedly

Dialogue is the key but once it becomes arguing it’s time to move on.

I agree it was once like that and still is to some degree but it is changing with the help of Catholic radio. Also many parishes (at least in my area) have apologetic classes. And more and more Catholics are involved in Bible studies and see the Truth of the Catholic Church in the Bible.

Another reason is that many see the Catholic Church holding fast to the teachings of Jesus Christ while many protestant denominations have women ordination, accept homosexual marriage, contraception and in some cases even abortion never mind the many interpretations of God’s Word. So we should be ready to share our Faith when someone is inquiring about the Catholic Church

Just say… If you have questions about Jesus Christ and the Church that He founded I will be happy answer and if I don’t know I will get the answer for you.
For the sake of this discussion, Harvest is much like Catholicism on discipline. They don’t ordain women which has caused many to stay out of it.

And I hope Catholics keep up in Apologetics and Evangelism.
 
Here’s their “history”…

HARVEST BIBLE CHAPEL | 1988
Eighteen people from across the northwest suburbs gathered to form a new church. They had a vision for proclaiming the authority of the Word of God without apology, for lifting high the name of Jesus through worship, for believing firmly in the power of prayer, and for sharing the good news of Jesus with boldness. Harvest Bible Chapel was born on September 18, 1988 with James MacDonald serving as Senior Pastor.

Here’s OUR history…

THE CATHOLIC CHURCH | 33 AD
The Son of God gathered Twelve men from across Galilee to form a new Church. Jesus had a Mission - sent by the Father to Redeem the human race through His Holy Sacrifice on the Cross. The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church was born at Pentecost, 33 AD with Peter (The Rock) as Christ’s appointed pastor/shepherd.

This Mr. MacDonald certainly has a “vision”. Sadly (for him), Christ’s Church will be alive and well long after he and his merry band of “visionaries” have been consigned to the dustbin of history.

I wonder who ordained this guy? Did the other seventeen choose him? In our Church; Jesus chose the first ministers/priests/bishops… they did not choose Him. Seems to me these people have it bass ackwards.

There IS a difference… Can you guess what it is? Both can’t be right, can they?
The Church was formed in response to watered down Christianity we find in some Lutheran synods and the Church of England. Protestantism is going secular way faster than Catholicism, so a conservative Church was formed.

It’s actually a step in the right direction.
 
For the sake of this discussion, Harvest is much like Catholicism on discipline. They don’t ordain women which has caused many to stay out of it.

And I hope Catholics keep up in Apologetics and Evangelism.
Well. it’s nice when you can find something to agree on.
 
The Church was formed in response to watered down Christianity we find in some Lutheran synods and the Church of England. Protestantism is going secular way faster than Catholicism, so a conservative Church was formed.

It’s actually a step in the right direction.
If this is the response to Lutheranism and CoE going liberal, why did they reject all the historic practices and doctrines of both?
 
I grow tired of having to defend my faith but that is what the Lord has called us to do…spread His word.

I think many Catholics are silent because the Church is always attacked and most people I know, me included, do not like to argue and defend. This coupled with the fact that we have a generation (possibly 2) that have not been catechized well. Many people are lazy too and just go to church and think that is all they need to do 🤷
Honestly, I think that it’s more that the average Catholics simply don’t think they know enough about their faith to defend it. We Catholics actually hear more actual scripture passages during our Mass than many Protestant groups hear during their services. What’s the difference? We’re told which book of the Bible a reading comes from, but if we want to find out what the chapters/verses are, we have to look at our Missallettes, or liturgy training materials, etc. And, it’s much harder to memorize entire passages than singular verses taken out of context. When I read the Bible personally, I read passages and don’t even really look at what the chapter or verse is. Our focus is on the overriding message of scripture, especially the Gospel. Unfortunately, when we’re hammered by specific chapters and verses from Protestant groups or pseudo-Christian groups (such as JW’s and Mormons), we don’t know often know how to defend it. Honestly, I think most Catholics don’t share our beliefs because we’re afraid of looking like we don’t know what we’re talking about.

Another reason why Catholics don’t generally defend our faith (especially in the US) is simple - much of America’s history has been viruntly anti-Catholic. This is the reason why Venerable Fr. Michael J. McGivney created the Knights of Columbus. Catholic men had a very hard time gaining jobs in any but the most hazardous occupations, where they were poorly paid and would leave their families destitute if they were injured or died on the job. They felt forced to leave the Catholic Church so that they could provide for their families. And, fraternal organizations which could have helped them banned Catholics (and the Church explicitly banned membership in the Freemasons in Vatican I). As such, Catholics had no place to go. So, Fr. McGivney created the Knights of Columbus to be a Catholic fraternal organization. And, the K of C created one of the first life insurance programs in the world (today, it’s the highest-rated life insurance in the US).

And this wasn’t the only Catholic response to discrimination. American Catholic schools were started in the archdiocese of New York because the public schools were virulently Protestant. Catholic children were refusing to go to school because their teachers were telling them, in front of their peers, that the Catholic Church was evil. As such, they were taunted by their peers, and their entire educational experience was simply awful.

Kennedy himself faced severe anti-Catholic sentiments. And in order to placate them, he had to convince Americans that he was an American who simply happened to be Catholic. This, of course, has led to the plethora of Catholic politicians who split their political views from the Catholic worldview.

As such, we’ve been kinda trained by generations of anti-Catholic prejudice to keep our mouths shut to survive in this country. That’s no longer the best thing for us to do, but after being such ingrained into our consciences for generations, it’s been quite difficult for us to change that. Thankfully, it’s changing - but slowly. And our priests are getting better at helping us defend our faith - our new priests, from the St. JPII and Benedict XVI generation, see themselves less as chaplains and more as missionary leaders.
 
If this is the response to Lutheranism and CoE going liberal, why did they reject all the historic practices and doctrines of both?
So I spoke with a pastor at a prayer meeting last night and when I asked what the Church’s official stance on Catholicism/Orthodoxy is his response was as follows:

“We don’t have an issue with the Catholic or Orthodox Church, or its members. What we have an issue with is whether their heart is truly on fire for Jesus. If they are just going through the routines that they have been given since childhood and aren’t living for Christ then it makes sense that they should find a new Church. We believe that Catholics are saved as long as they’ve truly accepted Christ and are living for Him and not simply going through the same routines.”

He then began to speak of the missionaries we have that go to Romania and have had observed that Romanian Orthodox are encouraged not to read their Bible’s. He gave some examples of superstitions such as a Priest coming to a crossroad and making a special prayer every time he reaches the road. I asked if he would send me some evidence; we’ll see what happens.
 
So I spoke with a pastor at a prayer meeting last night and when I asked what the Church’s official stance on Catholicism/Orthodoxy is his response was as follows:

“We don’t have an issue with the Catholic or Orthodox Church, or its members. What we have an issue with is whether their heart is truly on fire for Jesus. If they are just going through the routines that they have been given since childhood and aren’t living for Christ then it makes sense that they should find a new Church. We believe that Catholics are saved as long as they’ve truly accepted Christ and are living for Him and not simply going through the same routines.”

He then began to speak of the missionaries we have that go to Romania and have had observed that Romanian Orthodox are encouraged not to read their Bible’s. He gave some examples of superstitions such as a Priest coming to a crossroad and making a special prayer every time he reaches the road. I asked if he would send me some evidence; we’ll see what happens.
My biggest issue in my own personal experience has been Catholics thinking it’s awkward or weird to discuss our faiths. It drives me nuts.
 
Thanks for the historical reminders. Some of my own ancestors first came to the States from Ireland on one of Cromwell’s slave ships back in the 1600s. Talk about your anti-Catholic sentiment.

It has not been an easy road for Catholics in the US. Regardless, with morality falling down all around us, we need to have the courage to state our beliefs, politely but firmly, despite outside influences.

I am surrounded by Baptists where I live. Most are lovingly accepting of Catholicism, but there are still pastors (in fact, one small Baptist church two doors down from our parish) that Catholics are all going to he–. Actually, the quote was, “Look how full that parking lot is at the Catholic Church. Too bad they’re all going to he–”. Nice demonstration of Christian unity.

We might have our differences, but we should recognize that we are all one Body of Christ. In fact, if you haven’t read the Catechism lately, please look up Christian Prayer in Part Four, Section 2, Article 2. It says that when you say the Our Father, you are saying it with all who are baptized, not just other Catholics. (CCC 2791).
 
He then began to speak of the missionaries we have that go to Romania and have had observed that Romanian Orthodox are encouraged not to read their Bible’s.
The reason behind Catholics being encouraged not to read their Bible on their own, is because it’s very easy for people to misunderstand the many possible meanings of some scriptures. The Church does it to guard them against making incorrect assumptions about its meaning, and being led astray by those “with itching ears”.
“2 Peter 3:[16] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction. [17] You therefore, brethren, knowing these things before, take heed, lest being led aside by the error of the unwise, you fall from your own steadfastness.” The Catholic Church is the only one who has full Authority to interpret Holy Scripture, because She “wrote the book on it”, so to speak. This is one of the main things that non-Catholics don’t understand, so they “assume” (I hope we all know what Felix Unger says about that) it’s so Catholics won’t learn the “truth”, but in fact, it’s so they won’t get confused and lose track of the real Truth of Jesus Christ. Nothing irritates me more than people making those kinds of unfounded accusations against the Catholic Church. Many Catholics are very well versed in the Bible, and read it all the time. (I have the online DR version bookmarked in my toolbar for reference, and, so I can read it whenever I feel like it.) As long as they understand what they read in light of the Church’s interpretation of it, it’s never a problem.
He gave some examples of superstitions such as a Priest coming to a crossroad and making a special prayer every time he reaches the road. I asked if he would send me some evidence; we’ll see what happens.
So, your pastor thinks praying is a superstitious practice? Seriously? Perhaps its just an holy tradition to always say a short prayer for guidance whenever one comes to a “crossroad”, for those in the Romanian Church. Do you have any special times when you might stop and say a short prayer? Maybe saying Grace before meals? Is that superstitious or just a holy practice that more people should think about doing? 🤷
 
My biggest issue in my own personal experience has been Catholics thinking it’s awkward or weird to discuss our faiths. It drives me nuts.
Given that catholics make up about 25% of the overall US population and protestants rather more than double that, isn’t it rather likely that what you’ve experienced is NOT that catholics don’t like to talk about faith, but that catholics have developed the expectation over time that when they come across a zealous evangelical they’re going to get a tiresome lecture about how they need to accept the “real” Jesus and get saved? :rolleyes:

Trust me, it gets tiring. You see 'em coming and it’s “shields up” time!
 
Hmm, I just went through RCIA and I was never told not to read the bible. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Somewhere on this website is a link to “how to be a Catholic Apologist” and it starts out with telling you to read the New Testament, and then re-read it. I think this is it:

catholic.com/tracts/starting-out-as-an-apologist

So, we are told to read it. We also have somewhere to go to ask questions when it ins’t clear.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top