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Texas_Roofer
Guest
Interesting atheists do not want people to have the right to choose. The idea people might choose against them, is just too much. They need legal leverage against others. It sounds like they can not use ideas to back there position?
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vern_humphrey
Guest
I don’t think I bow to anyone in my disdain for James G. Blaine, “The Continental Liar from the State of Maine.”
But Catholic schools should not take public money. Who takes the King’s shilling is the King’s man.
But Catholic schools should not take public money. Who takes the King’s shilling is the King’s man.
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Brendan
Guest
I would agree.
My wife is the product of the state funded Catholic school system in Ontario, Canada.
The level of catechisis she received was even below the pitiful level I got.
And even now, Candian court decisions have gutted Catholic teaching in the school system there, even to the extent that a Catholic school cannot prohibit a gay couple from attending the school prom.
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Mjae
Guest
In Alberta, Canada we have a public school system and a separate (Catholic) school system, both taxpayer funded. You can choose which one your tax dollars go to. There are other schools (Jewish, Muslim, SDA, etc., I believe those may be privately funded , but I am not sure.
The Catholic content in our separate schools is radically different from when I went, 30 years ago. Back then we had religion every day, first period, all through school, taught by the nuns. Now the nuns are gone, and you don’t need to take it at all. If you do, it’s maybe a couple of days a week, and not even Catholic oriented. We are raising children who know basically nothing about their religion.
The Catholic content in our separate schools is radically different from when I went, 30 years ago. Back then we had religion every day, first period, all through school, taught by the nuns. Now the nuns are gone, and you don’t need to take it at all. If you do, it’s maybe a couple of days a week, and not even Catholic oriented. We are raising children who know basically nothing about their religion.
E
Ender
Guest
I am a strong supporter of vouchers: anything that helps kids opt out of the public school system and interjects a little competition has got to be a good thing. As to whether parochial schools should accept vouchers, I am guardedly positive. Everything depends on whether there are strings attached. Ideally money would be set aside for each student and follow him around to be spent at whatever school he chooses, just as if the money was his in the first place. Strictly speaking, it would be the student’s money, not the kings, and as such I would support it.
Ender
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vern_humphrey
Guest
There is – or was – a college (I can look it up, if anyone challenges this) which refused to follow federal directives. Their position was they didn’t get any federal money, and the feds had no leverage.
The feds sued anyway, claiming that some of the students had federally-guarenteed student loans, and that brought the school under federal control.
Don’t take the apple – it’s poisoned.
J
JimR-OCDS
Guest
I agree with you on this position!There is – or was – a college (I can look it up, if anyone challenges this) which refused to follow federal directives. Their position was they didn’t get any federal money, and the feds had no leverage.
The feds sued anyway, claiming that some of the students had federally-guarenteed student loans, and that brought the school under federal control.
Don’t take the apple – it’s poisoned.
Catholic Schools are better off not taking federal money. There’s a whole can of worms that will open, should they start to do so.
However, I posted the article more to show the history of anti-Catholic bigotry in the US.
Jim
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vern_humphrey
Guest
My grandfather and great-uncles stood off the KKK at gunpoint in Lake Charles, Louisiana. The church I attended as a boy, Saint Mary’s in Batesville, Arkansas, was desecrated and burned by the KKK.
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Texas_Roofer
Guest
I am still for vouchers. I believe their existence would be a large crack in the door way to improvement. Sure the government would leverage the vouchers for control. My guess is the government has 100% control of probably 85% of the schools today. If vouchers were enacted it would drop to 100% control of half the schools (ones with no change) 75% control of half the schools . However that would deteriorate over time until government control was minimum or moot, or so I hope. So I say give them the control (which they already have) and see if they can retain it.
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vern_humphrey
Guest
When did government control ever deteriorate over time?
Back in the '70s, there was a bureaucrat who retired as head of the Screw Thread Commission. When he retired (but not before), he publicly called for aboliton of the Screw Thread Commission, which had been created in 1917 to standardized screw threads for WWI production, and had finished the job in six months. But the commission lived on (at taxpayer expense) for another 60 years.
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Texas_Roofer
Guest
Basically the entire transportation industry, trucking, airlines, rail.
Then you have the electric industry, phone also. Under Reagan a lot of the old NIST specifications were eliminated. He nearly whacked education, however it did survive based on mostly a few states having extremely poor overall performance.
Frankly immigration and labor are being allowed to deteriorate to weak system rather than a formal exit.
Then you have the electric industry, phone also. Under Reagan a lot of the old NIST specifications were eliminated. He nearly whacked education, however it did survive based on mostly a few states having extremely poor overall performance.
Frankly immigration and labor are being allowed to deteriorate to weak system rather than a formal exit.
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vern_humphrey
Guest
Government control has not deteriorated in the systems you mention – the systems have deteriorated under government control.
E
Ender
Guest
Yes, I remember the incident (it was Hillsdale College) but I’m not sure it’s necessarily relevant. It depends on how the funds are categorized: if they are defined as government subsidies then I would agree with you but I suspect that there are other definitions that would circumvent the problem. Anyway, I am quite sure that this concern is not new and the people supporting vouchers are well aware of the cautionary tale of Hillsdale College.There is – or was – a college (I can look it up, if anyone challenges this) which refused to follow federal directives. Their position was they didn’t get any federal money, and the feds had no leverage.
The feds sued anyway, claiming that some of the students had federally-guarenteed student loans, and that brought the school under federal control.
Don’t take the apple – it’s poisoned.
Ender
V
vern_humphrey
Guest
But remember, it is the government that makes the definitions. In the case of Hillsdale College they attempted to define student loans as federal aid to the college, and it cost the college big bucks to fight the suit – big bucks that could have been better spent on education.
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Ender
Guest
Absolutely true, and I have no more trust of the gummint than you appear to, but once a law creating a voucher system is defined it should be possible to evaluate the risk involved in joining the program. There are a number of voucher systems in place throughout the country so some folks have been down this road already.
I certainly believe that caution is advised but I am not ready to reject the concept that a system can be devised that avoids the perils we both recognize … and I am really in favor of vouchers in the abstract as a way to break the government monopoly on public schools.
Ender
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vern_humphrey
Guest
I have a cousin who is an absolute genius in the restaurant business. We were having a conversation one day, and I mentioned to him how mystified I was that he rented, rather than** bought** the buildings for restaurants he established. He looked at me and said, “Remember, highways can move.”
In other words, the government can change the rules after you buy in. That’s exactly what they did with Hillsdale College.
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evelynicholson
Guest
I have read the above comments with interest. As a catechist who is just qualifying via distance learning etc.I have to say that the remedy is still in your hands. Get together in your parish and pay the relatively small amount of money to train a few people as catechists, and arrange an hour a week (perhaps the ‘coffee time’ after Mass and do the catechesis then. We are responsible for our children’s catechesis and it is dangerous to leave it ‘to the school’. There is a bit of embarrasment with some people about talking about our faith to children. If you leave it to the school and the church children will think it is not important to youand that they are being ‘processed’.
The Catholic church is exciting and vibrant and they will need to understand that in many issues they may stand outside the mainstream of their friends and may even encounter persecution. My son was not at a Catholic school, but he was horribly bullied just because he had a great knowledge of scripture and tradition (because of undergoing confirmation at the time and being helped through this. He described going along a corridor with children whispering, ;where’s the Christ? There he is the ‘Christ’ and then**each of them would mutter the Lord’s name. IWe of course took him out of the school and put him in an Anglican school, where he is happy and adjusted and recently did well in his exam in Religious Studies at the age of 15.
The Anglican school teaches a bit about other faiths, but has morning and evening prays in a Church, teaches them Christian hymns and other music and keeps all the festivals. It concentrates on Christianity which is an ethos that hits the school. Whist he understands ther are differences, he is also able to learn Latin which he can’t in the Catholic School. While issues of social justice are important, I think children’s own development and growth in the faith is as important as attending peace marches and so forth on a regular basis. It is as importatnt he actually learns why prayer is 'tuning in to God’and should be natural. Many educators have missed this point, even among some of the clergy.
On the plus side, the experience of being bullied for the Faith(and in all ways, as his mother I would so much have preferred him not to have this experience,)his Christian understanding has been deepened and enriched and his teacher tells me he defends the vulnerable and unhappy and cheers them up and contributes actively in all discussions. He understands he is in the world but has the extra dimension of being called by Christ.I really feel that if you are unhappy with this state of affairs, you have to take matters into your own hands by raising your concerns as a group and putting pressure on the school or employing your own catechists.
There is a strong and evil influence trying to bring down the Church and Christian teaching. The fight against this has to be as fierce as *their *agenda in trying to push their ‘worldly’ ideas (ie They think in doin this they are ‘trying to undo the silly ideas of the parents’.) This is fighting for your Child’s faith, whichever way you look at it. We have had people brought to the church by parents to 'do 'them for Holy Communion! It won’t work unless that faith is a very real part of the Family’s life , not just a ‘rite of passage’.You are Catholics and you have the right to bring up your children as Catholics. You also have a duty to catechise them after they have been baptised. I have often been dropping with tiredness but sensitively have dropped in a religious point without turning him off when issues of politics or justice are discussed. Take your children on a pilgrimage and let them see you take it seriously. There was a time when we were killed for the faith even in Britain and just the other day in Iraq with Father Raheed being martyred. These people have to catechise underground.Get your children to request prayers in the morning or evening.
Get them to listen to some of the sqpn shows that are good for older children and can be put on their Ipods via iTunes. This is not indoctrination. That is what the goernment and all the marketers want to do, get control of their mind, so they have no wisdom, compassion,Their brains are full of ‘global warming’ which takes over from any real faith,or right judgement.So take heart and be brave and get something organised. Do you say grace before meals? Do you pray together for sick family members. In Wales we have the famous saying of Saint David Gwneuch y pethau bychain (Do the little things and stay close to the Faith )This is a famous saying in Wales]Do those little things and those seeds will take root.
The Catholic church is exciting and vibrant and they will need to understand that in many issues they may stand outside the mainstream of their friends and may even encounter persecution. My son was not at a Catholic school, but he was horribly bullied just because he had a great knowledge of scripture and tradition (because of undergoing confirmation at the time and being helped through this. He described going along a corridor with children whispering, ;where’s the Christ? There he is the ‘Christ’ and then**each of them would mutter the Lord’s name. IWe of course took him out of the school and put him in an Anglican school, where he is happy and adjusted and recently did well in his exam in Religious Studies at the age of 15.
The Anglican school teaches a bit about other faiths, but has morning and evening prays in a Church, teaches them Christian hymns and other music and keeps all the festivals. It concentrates on Christianity which is an ethos that hits the school. Whist he understands ther are differences, he is also able to learn Latin which he can’t in the Catholic School. While issues of social justice are important, I think children’s own development and growth in the faith is as important as attending peace marches and so forth on a regular basis. It is as importatnt he actually learns why prayer is 'tuning in to God’and should be natural. Many educators have missed this point, even among some of the clergy.
On the plus side, the experience of being bullied for the Faith(and in all ways, as his mother I would so much have preferred him not to have this experience,)his Christian understanding has been deepened and enriched and his teacher tells me he defends the vulnerable and unhappy and cheers them up and contributes actively in all discussions. He understands he is in the world but has the extra dimension of being called by Christ.I really feel that if you are unhappy with this state of affairs, you have to take matters into your own hands by raising your concerns as a group and putting pressure on the school or employing your own catechists.
There is a strong and evil influence trying to bring down the Church and Christian teaching. The fight against this has to be as fierce as *their *agenda in trying to push their ‘worldly’ ideas (ie They think in doin this they are ‘trying to undo the silly ideas of the parents’.) This is fighting for your Child’s faith, whichever way you look at it. We have had people brought to the church by parents to 'do 'them for Holy Communion! It won’t work unless that faith is a very real part of the Family’s life , not just a ‘rite of passage’.You are Catholics and you have the right to bring up your children as Catholics. You also have a duty to catechise them after they have been baptised. I have often been dropping with tiredness but sensitively have dropped in a religious point without turning him off when issues of politics or justice are discussed. Take your children on a pilgrimage and let them see you take it seriously. There was a time when we were killed for the faith even in Britain and just the other day in Iraq with Father Raheed being martyred. These people have to catechise underground.Get your children to request prayers in the morning or evening.
Get them to listen to some of the sqpn shows that are good for older children and can be put on their Ipods via iTunes. This is not indoctrination. That is what the goernment and all the marketers want to do, get control of their mind, so they have no wisdom, compassion,Their brains are full of ‘global warming’ which takes over from any real faith,or right judgement.So take heart and be brave and get something organised. Do you say grace before meals? Do you pray together for sick family members. In Wales we have the famous saying of Saint David Gwneuch y pethau bychain (Do the little things and stay close to the Faith )This is a famous saying in Wales]Do those little things and those seeds will take root.
- Status