anti-Catholic vs. anti-Protestant

[tigerprowl]

Interesting topic. I will be honest - I never really had any issue with any Protestant I met. Background - I am Catholic and went to Clemson University, where Catholics were a huge minority. Plenty of Presbyterian, Methodist, Episcopalian, Anglican - and no issues whatsoever.

Except for the one group. The one group that doesn’t consider itself Protestant or tied to Catholicism: Baptists.

Whether it be Southern Baptist, the various flavors of Independent Fundamental Baptist, etc., those were the ones that gave everyone problems. In fact, our campus was visited by Bob Jones University students all the time, handling out pamphlets. While I do realize that these are not Southern Baptist… wow. The independent fundys absolutely targeted Catholics and Protestants alike. It was their way or Hell.

So I think there is a lot more in common between Catholics and Protestants than there are between Catholics OR Protestants vs. independent Baptist/Evangelical Christian churches.

 

[jimboky]

The term Baptist is starting to mean about as much as the term protestant, while on vacation I visited a “Baptist” church that had a practicing lesbian pastor, I felt a little out of place

 

[Thorolfr]

The term Baptist is starting to mean about as much as the term protestant, while on vacation I visited a “Baptist” church that had a practicing lesbian pastor, I felt a little out of place

I was raised Baptist and was once a member of an LGBT welcoming formerly Southern Baptist church that had been “disfellowshipped” by the Southern Baptist Convention as a result. But there is nothing specifically un-Baptist in welcoming LGBT people and “church freedom” of individual congregations used to be an important principle for Baptists. As it says in Walter B. Shurden, The Baptist Identity: Four Fragile Freedoms (Macon, Georgia: Smith & Helwys, 1993), “Church Freedom is the historic Baptist affirmation that local churches are free…to determine their membership and leadership, to order their worship and work, to ordain whom they perceive as gifted for ministry, male or female, and to participate in the larger Body of Christ, of whose unity and mission Baptists are proudly a part.”

 

[tigerprowl]

The term Baptist is starting to mean about as much as the term protestant, while on vacation I visited a “Baptist” church that had a practicing lesbian pastor, I felt a little out of place

Wow!!! There are all kinds of Baptist churches. My wife is Baptist, so please don’t think I’m intolerant, judgemental or categorize all Baptists into one group.

We all just have to learn to coexist.

 

[JonNC]

I was raised Baptist and was once a member of an LGBT welcoming formerly Southern Baptist church that had been “disfellowshipped” by the Southern Baptist Convention as a result. But there is nothing specifically un-Baptist in welcoming LGBT people and “church freedom” of individual congregations used to be an important principle for Baptists. As it says in Walter B. Shurden, The Baptist Identity: Four Fragile Freedoms (Macon, Georgia: Smith & Helwys, 1993), “Church Freedom is the historic Baptist affirmation that local churches are free…to determine their membership and leadership, to order their worship and work, to ordain whom they perceive as gifted for ministry, male or female, and to participate in the larger Body of Christ, of whose unity and mission Baptist are proudly a part.”

Without wishing to hijack Peter’s thread what kind of welcoming is involved in an “LGBT welcoming”? Is it a welcoming of, come, join His saints who are also sinners, receive the means of grace, then go and sin no more?

Jon

 

[Thorolfr]

Without wishing to hijack Peter’s thread what kind of welcoming is involved in an “LGBT welcoming”? Is it a welcoming of, come, join His saints who are also sinners, receive the means of grace, then go and sin no more?

Jon

At a minimum, it means showing respect for others, even those with differing beliefs on the issue of homosexuality. I would consider the ELCA to be “LGBT welcoming”. Even though some of its members still consider homosexuality to be sinful and " contrary to biblical teaching and their understanding of natural law," others are “convinced that the scriptural witness does not address the context of sexual orientation and committed relationships that we experience today.” But, as it says in the ELCA document, “A Social Statement on Human Sexuality: Gift and Trust” from 2009, “Although at this time this church lacks consensus on this matter, it encourages all people to live out their faith in the local and global community of the baptized with profound respect for the conscience-bound belief of the neighbor. This church calls for mutual respect in relationships and for guidance that seeks the good of each individual and of the community. Regarding our life together as we live with disagreement, the people in this church will continue to accompany one another in study, prayer, discernment, pastoral care, and mutual respect.”

 

[JonNC]

At a minimum, it means showing respect for others, even those with differing beliefs on the issue of homosexuality. I would consider the ELCA to be “LGBT welcoming”. Even though some of its members still consider homosexuality to be sinful and " contrary to biblical teaching and their understanding of natural law," others are “convinced that the scriptural witness does not address the context of sexual orientation and committed relationships that we experience today.” But, as it says in the ELCA document, “A Social Statement on Human Sexuality: Gift and Trust” from 2009, "Although at this time this church lacks consensus on this matter, it encourages all people to live out their faith in the local and global community of the baptized with profound respect for the conscience-bound belief of the neighbor. This church calls for mutual respect in relationships and for guidance that seeks the good of each individual and of the community. Regarding our life together as we live with disagreement, the people in this church will continue to accompany one another in study, prayer, discernment, pastoral care, and mutual respect."

I fully respect the right of others to have an opinion. The Church, historically, has also had one, based on the word of God. This sin we speak of is not greater than my sins, as I am chief of sinners, but it is sin nonetheless. I ask forgiveness of my sins, seeking absolution from God, all the while praying He forgives others as well.
That, I believe, is the welcoming all of our siblings should receive.

Jon

 

[Peter_J]

Well, I have received “suggestions” in the past.

Heh. But seriously, and closer to the original topic: out of your posts on this forum, the number that quote anti-Protestant statements is simply enormous. The question is, Do you really think that helps Catholic-Protestant relations? (Granted the word “enormous” is open to interpretation, but you can’t really blame me there b/c what-counts-as-anti-Protestant is also open to interpretation. And anyhow, whether the number is many thousands or only a few thousand, it’s still quite a lot.)

 

[Peter_J]

Hi Peter,

It sounds like you are of the opinion Catholic posters are more reasonable in their reaction to criticism than P’s.

I’m not at all sure that I would say that. There are good and bad apples in every bunch.

With that in mind, it seems to me that I could do just what a lot of Protestant posters do (see my previous post) in reverse: i.e. I could find tons and tons of anti-Catholic things that have been said (or typed) by Protestants, quote them and make it sound like they represent the thinking of Protestants generally. :ehh:

 

[steido01]

I fully respect the right of others to have an opinion. The Church, historically, has also had one, based on the word of God. This sin we speak of is not greater than my sins, as I am chief of sinners, but it is sin nonetheless. I ask forgiveness of my sins, seeking absolution from God, all the while praying He forgives others as well.
That, I believe, is the welcoming all of our siblings should receive.

Jon

Amen.

All sinners have the ability to reject God’s work of regeneration within us, and when we refuse to do as the Lord said and, “Go, and sin no more,” then we have thoroughly rejected that Love and are not at all “heartily sorry” for our sins. Add Paul’s warning that the unrepentant sinner takes communion to his own damnation, and… It causes me to tremble. :sad_yes:

And then I get angry. Forgive my Luther-esque frankness, but communions that not only permit, but actively encourage sin are tools that belong to someone other than God.

 

[steido01]

I’m not at all sure that I would say that. There are good and bad apples in every bunch.

With that in mind, it seems to me that I could do just what a lot of Protestant posters do (see my previous post) in reverse: i.e. I could find tons and tons of anti-Catholic things that have been said (or typed) by Protestants, quote them and make it sound like they represent the thinking of Protestants generally. :ehh:

Thank you for not.

 

[Thorolfr]

I fully respect the right of others to have an opinion. The Church, historically, has also had one, based on the word of God.

The Church has historically had lots of opinions, but not everyone continues to accept some of those opinions. Historically women could not be ordained. But the ELCA now believes that women can be ordained as clergy and consecrated as bishops. And so the current Presiding Bishop of the ELCA is a woman, Elizabeth Eaton, and my own congregation now has a woman Associate Pastor.

 

[Peter_J]

Thank you for not.

So far.

 

[JonNC]

The Church has historically had lots of opinions, but not everyone continues to accept some of those opinions. Historically women could not be ordained. But the ELCA now believes that women can be ordained as clergy and consecrated as bishops. And so the current Presiding Bishop of the ELCA is a woman, Elizabeth Eaton, and my own congregation now has a woman Associate Pastor.

What is sin is not a matter of the Church’s opinion. Regardless the type, sexual activity outside of marriage violates God’s law.

Women still cannot be validly ordained. Again, God has determined long ago who receives His call to the Office of the Public Ministry.
I think this would be an interesting topic for a thread.

Jon

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Heh. But seriously, and closer to the original topic: out of your posts on this forum, the number that quote anti-Protestant statements is simply enormous. The question is, Do you really think that helps Catholic-Protestant relations? (Granted the word “enormous” is open to interpretation, but you can’t really blame me there b/c what-counts-as-anti-Protestant is also open to interpretation. And anyhow, whether the number is many thousands or only a few thousand, it’s still quite a lot.)

I don’t believe anti-______ quotes or posts help at all. As I alluded to earlier, there appears to be a decrease in the charity here on the NCR forum. That’s not to say that the majority of posters are not charitable. They are. It only takes a few to churn up animosity.

Jon

 

[Hockeygurl]

This deserves a

And the reverse is true. If you are going to choose between what I has a Lutheran have to say about the Catholic Church, or a good Catholic says, listen to the Catholic.

If you are going to choose between what a Catholic says about the Lutheran Church, or what a good Lutheran says, listen to the Lutheran.

Jon

Agreed. Although it seems that some people have a double standard.

1. You won’t accept my churches definition/use of “sola scriptura”, but I am supposed to just believe you when you say you don’t pray to statues.
2. Luther was a bad person, therefore Lutheranism is bad. vs. Yes, there were some bad popes in the past but that doesn’t make the teachings of the church any less true.
3. Posters who get mad when a NC states what Catholics believe, but just don’t listen when they are misinformed.

 

[Peter_J]

P.S. Benhur, I noticed you said earlier that you’re “guilty as charged”. I appreciate that very much – I don’t think I’ve ever heard that admission from any other Protestant poster.

Is that a sign that a change in posting behavior is coming?

 

[Peter_J]

I don’t believe anti-______ quotes or posts help at all.

I agree, completely.

As I alluded to earlier, there appears to be a decrease in the charity here on the NCR forum.

I don’t think that’s really surprising: If you go into your backyard everyday and water a certain plant, it’s only natural that that plant will grow, even if other plants remain unchanged. Likewise, if you spend a lot of time nourishing a certain type of post, let’s say the anti-_______ posts, it is only natural that that type of post will flourish.

Having said that, I also think there’s a hero-martyr phenomenon that goes on. What I mean is, when other Protestant posters see you responding to anti-Protestant posts, not only they don’t criticize that action, but they actually think more highly of you for being so “ecumenical”.

• My two cents.

 

[rcwitness]

All legitimate non-Catholic communities contain Catholic faith. Many of these Christians arent aware of the articles of faith which they do not profess. These can’t rightly be called Protestants because they aren’t protesting.

If I say that I am anti-Protestant because I am against protesting the Catholic faith, I remain in the love of Christ and brotherly love for non-Catholic Christians. If I neglect the Catholic faith which a non-Catholic Christian has in order to set myself up as inferior to him, I go outside my Lord’s will.

If I struggle to defend the Catholic faith to a non-Catholic Christian who is willfully resisting and opposing it, he is resisting Christ and only God is able to judge him. I can only say my peace.

 

[Peter_J]

JonNC;13025013:

As I alluded to earlier, there appears to be a decrease in the charity here on the NCR forum.

I don’t think that’s really surprising

P.S. But it is pretty hopefuly. I.e. if things used to be better it gives hope that they could be better in the future too.