Anti-Catholicism and patriotism

[Crescentinus]

I need serious help in countering a typical anti-Catholic charge which had become common not just in the Philippines but in other parts of the world as well (such as United States of America, Canada among others).
The charge is essentially:
“You’re a Catholic!? How unpatriotic!”
So, how do I counter the attack?

 

[AV1]

The two are unrelated, and comparing them is not practical. You listed several countries there, but I would submit that any country that belittles my faith as a whole is not worthy of patriotism to begin with.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

I need serious help in countering a typical anti-Catholic charge which had become common not just in the Philippines but in other parts of the world as well (such as United States of America, Canada among others).
The charge is essentially:
“You’re a Catholic!? How unpatriotic!”
So, how do I counter the attack?

This is the “Apples and Oranges” fallacy; specifically, they are comparing two things that have nothing in common. Frankly, it’s a stupid argument that only a person with no real knowledge / problem would make (it’s an argument for argument’s sake, not for the sake of knowledge or reason). I would just ignore people who make it, because they’re obviously not looking for a real discussion.

If you feel the need to discuss it though, just point out to them that the two have nothing in common, and that unless they can prove that being one precludes being the other, they need to stop talking. If they persist, simply tell them that if you were forced to pick between your religion and your country, you would obviously pick your religion. Sure, they’ll walk away with a smug and completely misplaced sense of satisfaction, but you’ll have said what any true Catholic would say, that your religion is far, far more important to you than any temporal allegiance to something as unstable as a nation.

 

[Polycarp1]

I need serious help in countering a typical anti-Catholic charge which had become common not just in the Philippines but in other parts of the world as well (such as United States of America, Canada among others).
The charge is essentially:
“You’re a Catholic!? How unpatriotic!”
So, how do I counter the attack?

You could say that "I am very patriotic but my country is not of this world!

 

[Crescentinus]

This is the “Apples and Oranges” fallacy; specifically, they are comparing two things that have nothing in common. Frankly, it’s a stupid argument that only a person with no real knowledge / problem would make (it’s an argument for argument’s sake, not for the sake of knowledge or reason). I would just ignore people who make it, because they’re obviously not looking for a real discussion.

If you feel the need to discuss it though, just point out to them that the two have nothing in common, and that unless they can prove that being one precludes being the other, they need to stop talking. If they persist, simply tell them that if you were forced to pick between your religion and your country, you would obviously pick your religion. Sure, they’ll walk away with a smug and completely misplaced sense of satisfaction, but you’ll have said what any true Catholic would say, that your religion is far, far more important to you than any temporal allegiance to something as unstable as a nation.

The odd thing that I’ve discovered is that the anti-Catholic would then use a country’s particular history as an argument supporting anti-Catholicism. How would I argue against that? o:

 

[choliks]

The odd thing that I’ve discovered is that the anti-Catholic would then use a country’s particular history as an argument supporting anti-Catholicism. How would I argue against that? o:

The so-called “free-thinkers” hitting on you, spoony? Am I right?

 

[Crescentinus]

The so-called “free-thinkers” hitting on you, spoony? Am I right?

Not just them, I do say.
From some Born-Again Christians, to Iglesia ni Cristo members, to anti-theists and so-called “free thinkers”, I’ve seen the whole “Philippine history is filled with anti-Catholicism hence for you to become a patriot, get the insert swear here out of Catholicism, you unpatriotic insert unpatriotic insult here” coming from them. I swear, they make me want to go all Neo Shinryu from Final Fantasy V on them, and I know for a fact that Neo Shinryu is plain powerful.

 

[Ophelia23]

Your question reminds me of the rise of the KKK in America in the 1920’s. During that particular generation of the Klan, the focus was directed heavily against Catholics–particularly the Irish and Italian Catholic immigrants. It was believed that, because Catholics claim loyalty to the Pope (rather than the president), they were unpatriotic. Anti-American. A threat to society. This actually was the topic of my thesis while in University–It’s some really interesting stuff!

While we do give our allegiance to the Pope, Christ explicitly taught us to “give to Ceasar what is Ceasar’s.” There is room for a president, a king, a monarch, an ambassador, or whatever civil leader, within the structure of our belief system. We are called to stand against rules and laws that break our Moral code as dictated by the Church, but we are EQUALLY required to comply with the laws of the land that are just and grounded. Having an allegiance to the Pope does not generally negate patriotism. There are, of course, some countries and governments where this simply is not the case. China is a prime example of this.

 

[Nimzovik]

I need serious help in countering a typical anti-Catholic charge which had become common not just in the Philippines but in other parts of the world as well (such as United States of America, Canada among others).
The charge is essentially:
“You’re a Catholic!? How unpatriotic!”
So, how do I counter the attack?

I would say “I’m so very patriotic that I am Catholic!” Catholics only want what is right. This can only benefit one’s country.

Ergo -you should ask ‘why they are not Catholic!?’

 

[ahs]

The odd thing that I’ve discovered is that the anti-Catholic would then use a country’s particular history as an argument supporting anti-Catholicism. How would I argue against that? o:

How exactly would that be logical? They have their work cut out if they want this to stick:

“Such-n-such country has such-n-such history…therefore Catholicism is wrong.”

First they have to establish how the history relates at all to Catholicism. Then they have to show where there is a conflict between that history and Authentic Catholic Doctrine. (It will stop right there in most cases, because the person won’t know Authentic Catholic Doctrine…but let’s pretend they do.)

Then they must prove why the Catholic Teaching is “wrong”, per se, and the “history” is the “right” moral view. To make this judgment, they have to appeal to 1 or 2 things: 1 - an authority other than themselves (and now they must establish why it is an authority and from whence it authority comes) or 2 - themselves as their own authority (in which case they have just made the case for moral relativism where we all get to make up what we believe to be right or wrong, and now they contradict their own ideology by judging the ideology of someone else or their group/Church).

 

[ahs]

Not just them, I do say.
From some Born-Again Christians, to Iglesia ni Cristo members, to anti-theists and so-called “free thinkers”, I’ve seen the whole “Philippine history is filled with anti-Catholicism hence for you to become a patriot, get the insert swear here out of Catholicism, you unpatriotic insert unpatriotic insult here” coming from them. I swear, they make me want to go all Neo Shinryu from Final Fantasy V on them, and I know for a fact that Neo Shinryu is plain powerful.

Hmm. They are making emotion arguments with no meaning. You won’
t be able to get through to anyone while they are riled up like that. The only opportunity you’ll have at rational discussion is inviting someone to discuss it. But while there is emotional charge in them, they will not listen…they will be more like a wall than an ear.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

While we do give our allegiance to the Pope, Christ explicitly taught us to “give to Ceasar what is Ceasar’s.” There is room for a president, a king, a monarch, an ambassador, or whatever civil leader, within the structure of our belief system. We are called to stand against rules and laws that break our Moral code as dictated by the Church, but we are EQUALLY required to comply with the laws of the land that are just and grounded. Having an allegiance to the Pope does not generally negate patriotism. There are, of course, some countries and governments where this simply is not the case. China is a prime example of this.

This, and:

First they have to establish how the history relates at all to Catholicism. Then they have to show where there is a conflict between that history and Authentic Catholic Doctrine. (It will stop right there in most cases, because the person won’t know Authentic Catholic Doctrine…but let’s pretend they do.)

Then they must prove why the Catholic Teaching is “wrong”, per se, and the “history” is the “right” moral view. To make this judgment, they have to appeal to 1 or 2 things: 1 - an authority other than themselves (and now they must establish why it is an authority and from whence it authority comes) or 2 - themselves as their own authority (in which case they have just made the case for moral relativism where we all get to make up what we believe to be right or wrong, and now they contradict their own ideology by judging the ideology of someone else or their group/Church).

This, couldn’t have put it better myself.

People who make claims like those ones aren’t actually looking at the objective reality of the situation; they are basing their opinions on emotions and what they’ve heard, rather than on what actually happened (what was the cause or the conflict, etc.)

Like I said initially, it’s best to just ignore these people, because they’re obviously not actually looking to learn anything; they’re just trying to belittle you into agreeing with them.

 

[choliks]

Not just them, I do say.
From some Born-Again Christians, to Iglesia ni Cristo members, to anti-theists and so-called “free thinkers”, I’ve seen the whole “Philippine history is filled with anti-Catholicism hence for you to become a patriot, get the insert swear here out of Catholicism, you unpatriotic insert unpatriotic insult here” coming from them. I swear, they make me want to go all Neo Shinryu from Final Fantasy V on them, and I know for a fact that Neo Shinryu is plain powerful.

Don’t you wish real life has an “ignore user” feature like this forum? LOL. But seriously: such behavior really confounds me to no end. Why are they so afraid of the Church and what she she stands for?

Neo Shinryu? Don’t worry they’re doing that to each other. LOL. I visited one of the free thinker sites and read the comments section (was about my new favorite cosplayer: mr. C. Celdran). I was really amused at how they tried to outdo each other with “who has better logic” and a ton of insults.

 

[Crescentinus]

How exactly would that be logical? They have their work cut out if they want this to stick:

“Such-n-such country has such-n-such history…therefore Catholicism is wrong.”

First they have to establish how the history relates at all to Catholicism. Then they have to show where there is a conflict between that history and Authentic Catholic Doctrine. (It will stop right there in most cases, because the person won’t know Authentic Catholic Doctrine…but let’s pretend they do.)

Then they must prove why the Catholic Teaching is “wrong”, per se, and the “history” is the “right” moral view. To make this judgment, they have to appeal to 1 or 2 things: 1 - an authority other than themselves (and now they must establish why it is an authority and from whence it authority comes) or 2 - themselves as their own authority (in which case they have just made the case for moral relativism where we all get to make up what we believe to be right or wrong, and now they contradict their own ideology by judging the ideology of someone else or their group/Church).

The typical Filipino anti-Catholic (I know, it’s an oxymoron and the pun is intentional.) almost always (In my case, 95%.) opens and closes the debate with any variation/combination of these arguments:
“The Spanish friars are evil incarnate, hence Catholicism is evil!”.
“The Catholic Church is the cause of the problems of the Philippines.”
“It (the Catholic Church) came from Spain. Hence, being a Catholic is unpatriotic.”

 

[choliks]

How exactly would that be logical? They have their work cut out if they want this to stick:

“Such-n-such country has such-n-such history…therefore Catholicism is wrong.”

First they have to establish how the history relates at all to Catholicism. Then they have to show where there is a conflict between that history and Authentic Catholic Doctrine. (It will stop right there in most cases, because the person won’t know Authentic Catholic Doctrine…but let’s pretend they do.)

Then they must prove why the Catholic Teaching is “wrong”, per se, and the “history” is the “right” moral view. To make this judgment, they have to appeal to 1 or 2 things: 1 - an authority other than themselves (and now they must establish why it is an authority and from whence it authority comes) or 2 - themselves as their own authority (in which case they have just made the case for moral relativism where we all get to make up what we believe to be right or wrong, and now they contradict their own ideology by judging the ideology of someone else or their group/Church).

Most of them, if not all, see themselves as their own authority. At least that’s what I’ve observed.

 

[Crescentinus]

Don’t you wish real life has an “ignore user” feature like this forum? LOL. But seriously: such behavior really confounds me to no end. Why are they so afraid of the Church and what she she stands for?

Neo Shinryu? Don’t worry they’re doing that to each other. LOL. I visited one of the free thinker sites and read the comments section (was about my new favorite cosplayer: mr. C. Celdran). I was really amused at how they tried to outdo each other with “who has better logic” and a ton of insults.

I know, right? You know that something is dead wrong when they use the whole “separation of church and state” and yet look the other way when the government goes off supporting and celebrating with the likes of the Iglesia ni Cristo.

They don’t go Neo Shinryu on each other. They are more likely to go off a la Exdeath on each other, which is weird. For them to have a contest on who has the better insult proves that in a lot of cases, they are filled with whine, vitriol and hot air 97% of the time. But, that only tackles the anti-religious half of the attack. How about from the religious side such as from the Iglesia ni Cristo members who borderline worship their prophetic dynasty?

 

[Crescentinus]

People who make claims like those ones aren’t actually looking at the objective reality of the situation; they are basing their opinions on emotions and what they’ve heard, rather than on what actually happened (what was the cause or the conflict, etc.)

Like I said initially, it’s best to just ignore these people, because they’re obviously not actually looking to learn anything; they’re just trying to belittle you into agreeing with them.

Sadly, ignoring them can be deadly especially if a class activity says that I should not ignore them. Trying to ignore them is a noble exercise seeing as I’m shaking the dust off my footwear, but not in a debate-type class activity.

 

[choliks]

The typical Filipino anti-Catholic (I know, it’s an oxymoron and the pun is intentional.) almost always (In my case, 95%.) opens and closes the debate with any variation/combination of these arguments:
“The Spanish friars are evil incarnate, hence Catholicism is evil!”.
“The Catholic Church is the cause of the problems of the Philippines.”
“It (the Catholic Church) came from Spain. Hence, being a Catholic is unpatriotic.”

The first one exhibits a poor understanding of the Catholic Church (all Carholics are evil Spanish friars? ) The second is a baseless assertion. The last is just really uneducated ( trying to be charitable here) each item getting worse than the first.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

The typical Filipino anti-Catholic (I know, it’s an oxymoron and the pun is intentional.) almost always (In my case, 95%.) opens and closes the debate with any variation/combination of these arguments:

“The Spanish friars are evil incarnate, hence Catholicism is evil!”.

Arguemnt from emotion, with no proof given to back it up. Look them in the eyes and demand they give one example of “evil” friars. If they aer actually able to, point out to them that this is the Composition-Division fallacy, and that is it horribly illogical and proves nothing. (The actions of a small minority of a group cannot be applied as a defining feature of the overall group)

“The Catholic Church is the cause of the problems of the Philippines.”

Again, proof. I guarantee they won’t have any logical proof for this one, so I’ll ignore it.

“It (the Catholic Church) came from Spain. Hence, being a Catholic is unpatriotic.”

This one is so stupid, I don’t know where to begin… there’s no other word for it, it’s STUPID. It show a definite lack of general and basic knowledge about not only the Church, but history, politics, economic theory, etc. By saying that, because it is from somewhere else, it is evil, they are vilifying basically everything they have. Their nation is not self-sufficient, and therefore require assistance form other countries, including Spain, as it is part of the global economic system. If their problem is that they think it came specifically from Spain, kindly point out to them that Catholicism has been around longer than Spain has been Spain… If that doesn’t shut them up then just walk away, because they’ve decided to detach themselves from reality and won’t listen to anything you say anyways.

 

[Crescentinus]

The first one exhibits a poor understanding of the Catholic Church (all Catholics are evil Spanish friars? ) The second is a baseless assertion. The last is just really uneducated ( trying to be charitable here) each item getting worse than the first.

The sad part is, I know that many in my generation and the one that followed it tend to actually believe in those arguments. For instance, I have seen some of the “elite” (in other words, well-known) cosplayers here in Manila who believe out of a sense of patriotism mixed in with the belief in going countercultural, that anti-Catholicism is the belief system that they’ll follow and preach to the point of sheer recklessness.
In the case of #1, there have been cases of evil friars, but there are also good friars. For them to go for that line of thinking is indeed caused by a poor understanding of Catholicism and a blind adherence to the anti-clericalism that some of the Philippine Revolutionary heroes from the late 19th century Philippines (like Dr. Jose Rizal and Andres Bonifacio) followed. For them, looking at history akin to Biblical eisegesis is seemingly mandatory. The sad part is, I am fearful that if I defend Catholicism in my Philippine History class, I would fail the subject.