Anti-Catholicism: What's the Basis?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Brett_Barnes
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
B

Brett_Barnes

Guest
“Why do other Christians hate us?” This is the question my 13 year-old step-son asked me the other day.

Are they threatened by our legitimacy since we were founded by Jesus Christ and have the history and tradition that they lack?

Where are the anti-Lutherans, the anti-Methodists?
 
“Why do other Christians hate us?” This is the question my 13 year-old step-son asked me the other day.

Are they threatened by our legitimacy since we were founded by Jesus Christ and have the history and tradition that they lack?

Where are the anti-Lutherans, the anti-Methodists?
Tell your son that if there were anti-Lutherans, the anti-Methodists, that would be us. But (with some exceptions) we don’t hate. And those who do hate are not good Catholics.

We base our position on what we believe, not on attacking what others believe.

And, for an eye opener, see if you can find a Baptist debating a Pentecostal – the venom just flows out.
 
Misunderstandings.
“There are not a hundred people in America who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions of people who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church— which is, of course, quite a different thing.” (Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen, foreword to Radio Replies Vol. 1, page ix.) source
 
Misunderstandings.
I disagree with this 100% I challenge you take ask me about your doctrines.

Most protestants don’t hate Catholics they just feel you need to be evangelized to.
 
I disagree with this 100% I challenge you take ask me about your doctrines.

Most protestants don’t hate Catholics they just feel you need to be evangelized to.
Okay, but help me out here. For about 2,000 years, the Catholic Church has taught a consistent, coherent message. In less than a quarter of that time, Protestantism has squabbled with itself, split, quarreled some more, re-split, fragmented and splintered. Today, there are Protestant churches which teach just about anything under the sun. It is no exaggeration to say Protestants are not defined by what they believe anymore, but rather what they don’t believe.

So can you present a positive, coherent doctrine that is accepted by your fellow Protestants?

If you can’t do that, you can’t really evangelize.
 
“There are not a hundred people in America who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions of people who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church— which is, of course, quite a different thing.” (Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen, foreword to Radio Replies Vol. 1, page ix.) source
I think Archbishop Fulton Sheen explained it the best. I don’t know why people form opinions about the Catholic Church based on heresay from other anti-Catholics then proclaim that they are the ones who have the absolute truth, saving those poor, misguided, unsaved and doomed Catholics :confused:

I know these folks are probably caring and concerned intelligent people. But why don’t they do some research & educate themselves about the Catholic Church before coming to conclusions based on something someone said, half-truths and outright lies?

I realize one cannot find out everything about the Church on an afternoon surfing the net (it’s taken me 2 years and I’m still learning:getholy:).
 
Okay, but help me out here. For about 2,000 years, the Catholic Church has taught a consistent, coherent message. In less than a quarter of that time, Protestantism has squabbled with itself, split, quarreled some more, re-split, fragmented and splintered.
A very quick interjection.

It seems to me as though the Catholic Church has had the same problems as the Protestants.

They split and split again, but by definition, they are united. The Catholic Church is the community of believers in communion with the Patriarch of Rome. Anyone who splits off (and there have been many) is defined to be non-Catholic.

We consider then Baptists, who we could claim have a tradition that one can follow back to the beginning of the Church in accepting the Trinity, the Grace of Christ, and baptism by immersion. We would just define all those who disagree as heretics who have not been part of the One Holy and Baptist Church.

In my mind (thus far) it is only the Orthodox Church that has held together a true Unity in Christ upon His Councils, and in His Divine Liturgy guided by His Holy Spirit. In other words, the Fullness of Truth.

And not by a certain doctrine declared outside this, like full immersion, or papal infallibility, which gives of the “unity” a taste of humanity.
 
A very quick interjection.

It seems to me as though the Catholic Church has had the same problems as the Protestants.

They split and split again, but by definition, they are united. The Catholic Church is the community of believers in communion with the Patriarch of Rome. Anyone who splits off (and there have been many) is defined to be non-Catholic.
If you pursue that, you will ultimately come to the position that heresy is self-validating. Just because someone belives in a heresy, that makes it valid – without regard to the truth or falsity of the position.

Clearly, there have been heresies – but the Church remains, teaching a constant, coherent message.
We consider then Baptists, who we could claim have a tradition that one can follow back to the beginning of the Church in accepting the Trinity, the Grace of Christ, and baptism by immersion. We would just define all those who disagree as heretics who have not been part of the One Holy and Baptist Church.
Show me that tradition and trace it back. Name the Baptists of the First, Second, Third, and later centuries.
In my mind (thus far) it is only the Orthodox Church that has held together a true Unity in Christ upon His Councils, and in His Divine Liturgy guided by His Holy Spirit. In other words, the Fullness of Truth.
Ah, but to evangelize, you must have something more than “in my mind.” Because in my mind, things are different.

Produce a doctrine and support it, not by saying “I think it’s true,” but by showing it to be true.
And not by a certain doctrine declared outside this, like full immersion,
Why do you bring up full immersion? Are you under the impression that’s a Catholic dogma?
or papal infallibility, which gives of the “unity” a taste of humanity.
I take it you understand “infallibility” to be something quite different from what the Church teaches.
MATTHEW 16:16-20 – And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou are the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
 
In my mind (thus far) it is only the Orthodox Church that has held together a true Unity in Christ upon His Councils, and in His Divine Liturgy guided by His Holy Spirit. In other words, the Fullness of Truth.

And not by a certain doctrine declared outside this, like full immersion, or papal infallibility, which gives of the “unity” a taste of humanity.
The Orthodox Church is a wonderfull church full of beautiful liturgy and worship.

But we Roman Catholics thank God for Papal Infallibility which has protected me from the curse of birth control which had almost destroyed my spiritual life.

I hope you will look into our last Pope’s wonderful teaching on The Theology of the Body and see the great truth of having the children God sends us.

I am promoting this because I know this teaching will save some marriages making the family again a center of faith and maybe some of the world.

May God richly bless all those in the Orthodox Church.

John Buttrey
wjohnwbuttrey@gmail.com
 
Let’s recap the bidding here. I’ve issued, as gently as I can and in what I hope is Christian charity, a simple challenge:
So can you present a positive, coherent doctrine that is accepted by your fellow Protestants?
Don’t tell me what’s wrong about what I believe – tell me what you believe and show me that it’s right.
 
If you pursue that, you will ultimately come to the position that heresy is self-validating. Just because someone belives in a heresy, that makes it valid – without regard to the truth or falsity of the position.
Exactly my point. And why I believe Catholicism as being weak to many of the same problems as Protestantism.
Show me that tradition and trace it back. Name the Baptists of the First, Second, Third, and later centuries.
I presume there were, in the first century, Christians who chose to immerse people fully, and who also accepted the Trinity and the Grace of Christ. This, pretty much, is the only dogma required by Baptists today (though there would be other doctrinal issues).

So we can say that, through all generations, there have been Baptists, though not with the highly developed doctrine Baptists have today.

And all that can be offered is “I think” or “I believe”, and then a “because”, hopefully resting on good arguments. But certainty outside of faith is not appropriate or possible in the realm of theology. So I told you what I believe, and in part why (the part that is relevant to the question at hand)
Why do you bring up full immersion? Are you under the impression that’s a Catholic dogma?
No. I am under the impression that it is Baptist dogma. And that it stands on just as strong a ground as Papist dogma (Papal infallibility).
I take it you understand “infallibility” to be something quite different from what the Church teaches.
Just because someone disagrees with you, doesn’t mean they don’t understand you.

I understand the Church’s teaching on Papal infallibility, and on the infallibility of the Ordinary and Extraordinary Magisterium (or, at least, I believe that I do, though I am always open to further instruction on the matter). And I reject this teaching.

In small part for the reasons given above.
 
I hope you will look into our last Pope’s wonderful teaching on The Theology of the Body and see the great truth of having the children God sends us.
I am working through this excellent work. It is the epitome of a philosophic and theological masterpiece, produced by one of the greatest minds of the Papacy (and maybe even the Saints).

It is deep, however, and I am not sure I understand the lines of argument or the conclusions well enough yet to even comment on them. I am hoping that, in the span of the next few months, I will have a handle enough of this excellent work to discuss it further.

Thank you for your wise suggestion; I would recommend “Theology of the Body” to anyone.
May God richly bless all those in the Orthodox Church.
And also all those in Rome. Thank you very much for your blessings (though I have only started in my journey toward Orthodoxy).

For all that I disagree with Rome, I find nothing about Rome to hate.

It is likely that many who speak against Roman Catholicism are genuinely trying to draw those people away from what they perceive to be mistakes in Catholicism, for they themselves hate the error (or what they think to be the error), not because they hate the Church when it teaches error, but because they love the Church so much as to encourage people away from error.
 
Don’t tell me what’s wrong about what I believe – tell me what you believe and show me that it’s right.
As I am not a Protestant, this question is not directed toward me.

However, if I were a Protestant, I would object to the question, as there is no single, coherent, Protestant body.

One would need to specify what body within Protestantism one means.
 
I disagree with this 100% I challenge you take ask me about your doctrines.

Most protestants don’t hate Catholics they just feel you need to be evangelized to.
I did Martin, on the “Not by Faith Alone” thread. And when you proved that you did NOT understand the Catholic position on justification, you tucked tail and ran. You understand the Catholic and Biblical faith like I understand quantum physics.
 
A very quick interjection.

It seems to me as though the Catholic Church has had the same problems as the Protestants.

They split and split again, but by definition, they are united. The Catholic Church is the community of believers in communion with the Patriarch of Rome. Anyone who splits off (and there have been many) is defined to be non-Catholic.

We consider then Baptists, who we could claim have a tradition that one can follow back to the beginning of the Church in accepting the Trinity, the Grace of Christ, and baptism by immersion. We would just define all those who disagree as heretics who have not been part of the One Holy and Baptist Church.

In my mind (thus far) it is only the Orthodox Church that has held together a true Unity in Christ upon His Councils, and in His Divine Liturgy guided by His Holy Spirit. In other words, the Fullness of Truth.

And not by a certain doctrine declared outside this, like full immersion, or papal infallibility, which gives of the “unity” a taste of humanity.
What? The Orthodox have many different sects as well. And your comparison of Catholics to Baptists is shameful. The Orthodox that come on here disappoint me severely. We should be united but you guys treat us as worse than non-believers. Even with you disagreeing with papal infallibility, we still have Apostolic Succession. It is just sad that you can’t get past your disdain and defend us as we defend you. Seriously, that comparison to the “Baptist Church” is a joke. Historically it is completely untenable.
 
“Why do other Christians hate us?” This is the question my 13 year-old step-son asked me the other day.

Are they threatened by our legitimacy since we were founded by Jesus Christ and have the history and tradition that they lack?

Where are the anti-Lutherans, the anti-Methodists?
Protestantism is inherently “anti-Catholic.” The very name “Protestant” shows that they are created in a “protest” against the Catholic Church. There positions are inherently anti-Catholic. Faith “Alone” is created in a “protest” against faith and works. Otherwise it would just be justification by faith, which is ironically the Catholic position.
 
What? The Orthodox have many different sects as well. And your comparison of Catholics to Baptists is shameful. The Orthodox that come on here disappoint me severely. We should be united but you guys treat us as worse than non-believers. Even with you disagreeing with papal infallibility, we still have Apostolic Succession. It is just sad that you can’t get past your disdain and defend us as we defend you. Seriously, that comparison to the “Baptist Church” is a joke. Historically it is completely untenable.
These are my observations about Baptists, Catholics, and the Orthodox. I am none of these.

I am not sure what I am yet.

So, though I do think the comparison is apt, though maybe a slight exaggeration, it is not at all the opinion of a member of the Orthodox Church (though my not being Orthodox may change over the course of a few months).

And do you think Baptists are worse than non-believers? (A possible, but not necessary, implication from your statement)

I think Baptists acknowledge a good portion of the truth, much more than non-believers. I am not sure where I would place Catholics, but at this time I see little difference between them and most Protestant groups.

Hardly non-believers (or worse).
 
A very quick interjection.

It seems to me as though the Catholic Church has had the same problems as the Protestants.

They split and split again, but by definition, they are united. The Catholic Church is the community of believers in communion with the Patriarch of Rome. Anyone who splits off (and there have been many) is defined to be non-Catholic.
I don’t think this is accurate. Catholics themselves haven’t “split and split” again. There aren’t different sects of Catholicism. All of those TRULY in communion with the Pope hold the same Catholic faith as he and all Catholics do. If you are like Nancy Pelosi and believe almost nothing of the Catholic faith, but pretend to be a loyal subject of the Pope, then you are not in communion with the Pope or your fellow Catholics.

Protestants, however, have split and split again. There are over 30,000 Protestant denominations, and even within one denomination (like the Anglican Communion) you will have many disagreements on important issues (Anglo-Catholics vs. Evangelicals.)

As for the Orthodox, they do have unity of faith, and I have great respect for the Orthodox. However, their lack of a physical unity has blocked them from speaking with one voice. I believe there are even cases where one Orthodox church is recognized as some Orthodox churches as in communion, but is rejected by others as not being in communion. In fact, many ecumenical talks break down because the Orthodox can’t agree with each other.
It is likely that many who speak against Roman Catholicism are genuinely trying to draw those people away from what they perceive to be mistakes in Catholicism, for they themselves hate the error (or what they think to be the error), not because they hate the Church when it teaches error, but because they love the Church so much as to encourage people away from error.
Away from error and into what? Sola scriptura? Sola fide? “Once saved always saved?” Denial of baptismal regeneration? Denial of the Real Presence? Denial of Holy Tradition? The “priesthood of the laity”?

Many Fundamentalists and Evangelicals don’t even view the Catholic Church (or the Orthodox Church) to be Christian. They view them as the pharisees and saducees, or worse, the Whore of Babylon of the Bible. They don’t love the Catholic Church (or the Orthodox Church.)
 
A very quick interjection.

It seems to me as though the Catholic Church has had the same problems as the Protestants.

They split and split again, but by definition, they are united. The Catholic Church is the community of believers in communion with the Patriarch of Rome. Anyone who splits off (and there have been many) is defined to be non-Catholic.

We consider then Baptists, who we could claim have a tradition that one can follow back to the beginning of the Church in accepting the Trinity, the Grace of Christ, and baptism by immersion. We would just define all those who disagree as heretics who have not been part of the One Holy and Baptist Church.

In my mind (thus far) it is only the Orthodox Church that has held together a true Unity in Christ upon His Councils, and in His Divine Liturgy guided by His Holy Spirit. In other words, the Fullness of Truth.

And not by a certain doctrine declared outside this, like full immersion, or papal infallibility, which gives of the “unity” a taste of humanity.
Hey, no fair! You’re supposed to be taking a few days off till after the New Year! :rolleyes:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top