Anti-Catholicism

[bookgirl32]

Because Jesus’ true Church is not a physical entity on this planet.

This is what I don’t get about this argument:

Whether you believe the church in 1Tim is an invisible, spiritual “only” church or a visible, institutional establishment, it’s safe to say that either way, either “church”, still has to be the “pillar and foundation of truth”. Correct? The “spiritual church” (in the way you’re defining it) must, then, contain the one, clear, absolute truth of God’s revelation. But, within this “spiritual church” there are how many different doctrines, how many different opinions, how many different “truths”? I suppose you could say that there is still only one within all of those, but then, how do you know which one it is?

I’m just saying that I can see your logic about the church Jesus established as being a spiritual church, okay, fine. But that “church”, according to 1Tim, would still have to be the pillar and foundation of truth, and I don’t see a clear truth coming out of that “church”. And it’s not just “non-essential” truths either. It’s dissagreements from baptism to “born again”, from OSAS to “losing your salvation”, even different Protestant ideas about sacraments and the role they play. Those are pretty big, essential, ideas that effect salvation within the different belief systems.

 

[Prieldedi]

Because Jesus’ true Church is not a physical entity on this planet.

If the Church of Jesus is not physical it means it’s “invisible”. If the Church Jesus founded is invisible, then the words “invisible church” have to be found somewhere in Scripture. I searched my digital Bible and I found just three verses in which the word invisible is used in the entire Bible:

Wisdom 17:19, Colossians 1:16 and Hebrews 11:27, and in none of those instances the word “invisible” is next to the word Church.

So, if you use the Protestant principle (“it has to be in the Bible to be believable”, “you can’t believe what’s not in the Bible”), on your own argument, you have no choice but to conclude that you believe in something outside of the Bible. It has been demonstrated that “invisible church” is not in the Bible, then, why do you believe the Church is invisible?

Nowhere in the history of Christianity was the concept of an “invisible church” ever conceived until recent times.

There are plenty of verses though that talk about the “visibility” of the Church:

Matthew 5:14-15, “You are the light of the world. A city built on a mountain cannot be hidden. No one lights a lamp and covers it; instead it is put on a lampstand, where it gives light to everyone in the house.”

Isaiah 2:2, “In the last days, the mountain of Yahweh’s house shall be set over the highest mountains and shall tower over the hills.”

Acts 16:5, “So the Churches grew stronger and stronger in the faith and increased in numbers daily.”

Acts 9:31, “Meanwhile, the Church had peace. It was building up throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria with eyes turned to the Lord and filled with comfort from the Holy Spirit.”

1 Pet 5:13, “The Church which is at Babylon [Rome], chosen together with you, greets you, and so does my son Mark.”

Is there anything here that describes the Church as invisible? Light, city, mountain, lamp, house… are these non physical things? Judea, Galilee, Samaria, Rome… aren’t they geographical places on this planet?

1 Timothy 3:15, “…if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.” Where is the invisibility here?

God bless you

 

[Drawmack]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

You got it. I believe that the RCC is the Living Christ. Yes now you understand. I believe that the RCC is being led by the HOLY SPIRIT yes now you understand.

I believe as CHrist said in the his teachings that he is united to the Church as a bride to the bridegroom the two become one. Yes I believe CHrist and his church again to be one. And just like no one can separate a husband and wife no one can separate Christ from his Church.

Now you got it. You have the full understanding of what I believe.

You on the other hand reject the authority that Jesus gave to Apostles. You reject the teachings of the Church. I understand that.

If you choose to worship a church as it if were God feel free but that is not what the Bible teaches me.

 

[Drawmack]

This is what I don’t get about this argument:

Whether you believe the church in 1Tim is an invisible, spiritual “only” church or a visible, institutional establishment, it’s safe to say that either way, either “church”, still has to be the “pillar and foundation of truth”. Correct? The “spiritual church” (in the way you’re defining it) must, then, contain the one, clear, absolute truth of God’s revelation. But, within this “spiritual church” there are how many different doctrines, how many different opinions, how many different “truths”? I suppose you could say that there is still only one within all of those, but then, how do you know which one it is?

When it comes to salvation and how one is saved there really are not that many teachings and anything outside of that is simply theological minutia.

I’m just saying that I can see your logic about the church Jesus established as being a spiritual church, okay, fine. But that “church”, according to 1Tim, would still have to be the pillar and foundation of truth, and I don’t see a clear truth coming out of that “church”. And it’s not just “non-essential” truths either. It’s dissagreements from baptism to “born again”, from OSAS to “losing your salvation”, even different Protestant ideas about sacraments and the role they play. Those are pretty big, essential, ideas that effect salvation within the different belief systems.

Within the Catholic Church there are over 20 Rites. According to Rome the Orthodox Churches have valid sacraments, but according to the Orthodox Churches Rome does not have valid sacraments. The Catholic Church contains Thomists and Molonists. But, you proclaim one single and unified theology. That simply is not true! Catholics are unified on about as much as Protestants are.

 

[Leslie_Polley]

Sorry that is not correct there is a big difference between proclaim and protest. Please don’t take my word for it, look it up in the dictionary. And then please get back to me.

Got with the dictionary now I am back with you…QUOTE.Protestant…1. A member of a Western Christian church whose faith and practice are founded on the principles of the Protestant Reformantion especially in the acceptance of the Bible as the sole source of revelation, in justification by faith alone and in the universal priesthood of all the believers. 2. A member of a Western Christain church adhering to the theologies of Luther Calvin or Zwingli. 3. One who supported the protestation presented by the GermanLutheran states ag ainst the revocation of the decree of the Diet of Speyer . 4. One who makes a declaration or an avowal, or relating to Protestans or Protestantiam. From the Latin Protestans…Present participle of protestari to protest…That of course was the last line, wnicn means that it has the least signifigance. If your going to quote it quote it all. Not just what is convinient.

Now I am not protestant, I am Penticostal.

 

[Leslie_Polley]

When it comes to salvation and how one is saved there really are not that many teachings and anything outside of that is simply theological minutia.

It is not a small theological point. It is what we base going to heaven or not. The Bible, Catholic or King James states clearly, you MUST be born again. God Himself said that. Read Romans 10:910 just for one. How can you argue with your oown Bible.

Within the Catholic Church there are over 20 Rites. According to Rome the Orthodox Churches have valid sacraments, but according to the Orthodox Churches Rome does not have valid sacraments. The Catholic Church contains Thomists and Molonists. But, you proclaim one single and unified theology. That simply is not true! Catholics are unified on about as much as Protestants are.

 

[Leslie_Polley]

If you choose to worship a church as it if were God feel free but that is not what the Bible teaches me.

AMEN!

 

[zach_dunn]

Look at this Baptist throw a fit over the OSAS doctrine. I really don’t have much to say about this other than he understands nothing about the Catholic church.

youtube.com/watch?v=NJWOf5PLCNY

Hahaha, I think this guy got too many bad comments, he took the video down.

 

[Drawmack]

If the Church of Jesus is not physical it means it’s “invisible”. If the Church Jesus founded is invisible, then the words “invisible church” have to be found somewhere in Scripture. I searched my digital Bible and I found just three verses in which the word invisible is used in the entire Bible:

False premise! The word trinity is not used in the Bible. The word rapture is not used in the Bible. And, from a Catholic perspective, the word purgatory is not used in the New Testament. Here’s your straw man back, why don’t you put him up in your corn field where he might actually do some good?

So, if you use the Protestant principle (“it has to be in the Bible to be believable”, “you can’t believe what’s not in the Bible”), on your own argument, you have no choice but to conclude that you believe in something outside of the Bible. It has been demonstrated that “invisible church” is not in the Bible, then, why do you believe the Church is invisible?

False premise. The Protestant teaching is that it has to be taught by the Bible in order to be believable. This being the case, we do accept the trinity even though that word is not in the Bible. That being the case, we can speak of the invisible church that is clealy implied by scripture while it is not explicitly stated. Here is a second straw man for you, I hope you have a big corn field.

Matthew 5:14-15, “You are the light of the world. A city built on a mountain cannot be hidden. No one lights a lamp and covers it; instead it is put on a lampstand, where it gives light to everyone in the house.”

And Protestant churches as well as the Catholic Church are incredibly visible in the world. Any idiot can open a phone book and prove that. However, the Church that Jesus instituted is the invisible church which covers the world in his grace and glory working through every flawed church built and maintained by man’s hands. If you take these verses in context, of the Sermon on the Mount, it is clear that the you in this is the communion of believers – he said you in a public sermon – and not one specific physical church.

Isaiah 2:2, “In the last days, the mountain of Yahweh’s house shall be set over the highest mountains and shall tower over the hills.”

Yeah, that is a prophesy about the physical church to come during the millenial reign. I understand that Catholics are amilenial in their beliefs, however ammillenialism is actually a development which is difficult to trace to before about 500 ad.

Acts 16:5, “So the Churches grew stronger and stronger in the faith and increased in numbers daily.”

This passage is speaking of physical churches, do I really have to point out that the word churches is pluralized in this verse? I guess that is because it is talking about the One, True, Church and not many churches. Might I ask why you capitalized the word churches? What gives you the right to change scripture?

Acts 9:31, “Meanwhile, the Church had peace. It was building up throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria with eyes turned to the Lord and filled with comfort from the Holy Spirit.”

If we replace church, which again YOU capitalized, in this statement with communion of believers it still makes perfect sense. However, if we replace church in this verse with Magisterium it stops making sense.

Let’s look ahead to Acts 9:34. Who heals the lame man? It is Paul? Is it the Church? No, it is Jesus Christ!

(continued … I hate character limits)

 

[Drawmack]

1 Pet 5:13, “The Church which is at Babylon [Rome], chosen together with you, greets you, and so does my son Mark.”

I didn’t think this read properly so I looked it up at usccb.org/nab/bible/1peter/1peter5.htm (which is where I get all the biblical quotes I use on this site) and this is what I found, “The chosen one at Babylon sends you greeting, as does Mark, my son.” with a footnote that reads, “The chosen one: feminine, referring to the Christian community (ekklesia) at Babylon, the code name for Rome in Rev 14:8; 17:5; 18:2.”. So here if we do replace chosen one with church as you have done, then church, by the declaration of a footnote in a Catholic Bible, means the community of believers. Protestants are viewed as separated brethren, that is as part of the community of believers, by the Catholic Church. So, to utilize this passage we must admit that the church is an invisible entity which rules over the entire community of believers, those who are in communion with Rome and those who are not. Therefore, it cannot refer to the Roman Catholic Magisterium. Just for fun, let’s look at some of those cross references to Revelation shall we.

Revelation 14:8 reads, A second angel followed, saying: “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, that made all the nations drink the wine of her licentious passion.” So, if this statement is to refer to the same entity as that in 1 Peter then we are to believe that this church makes all the nations drink the wine of her licentious passion. So, if this is a reference to the same chosen from 1 Peter than that chosen is licentious or lacking moral discipline, sexually unrestrained. Does that sound like the Catholic Church to you? It doesn’t to me, but I’ll defer to your judgment on the issue.

Revelation 17:5 reads, On her forehead was written a name, which is a mystery, “Babylon the great, the mother of harlots and of the abominations of the earth.” So if Babylon is a code word for the communion of believers at Rome like the foot note from a Catholic Bible says and that communion is Jesus’ church as you claim than the communion of believers at Rome is the mother of harlots and the abominations of the earth. Does that sound like the Catholic Church to you? It doesn’t to me, but I’ll defer to your judgment on the issue.

Revelation 18:2 reads, He cried out in a mighty voice: "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great. She has become a haunt for demons. She is a cage for every unclean spirit, a cage for every unclean bird, (a cage for every unclean) and disgusting (beast). So if this is the same communion of believers from 1 Peter and that chosen is the Church at Rome then this chosen one is a cage for unclean spirits and birds – a disgusting beast. Does that sound like the Catholic Church to you? It doesn’t to me, but I’ll defer to your judgment on this issue.

That doesn’t sound like the Church Jesus founded.

Is there anything here that describes the Church as invisible? Light, city, mountain, lamp, house… are these non physical things? Judea, Galilee, Samaria, Rome… aren’t they geographical places on this planet?

I think I have sufficiently responded to these questions.

1 Timothy 3:15, “…if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.” Where is the invisibility here?

God bless you

Let’s take that verse in it’s entirety. I claim that the church is an invisible entity which oversees the entire communion of believers. Thus if you are in the world and taking breath you are in this church by virtue of being a believer. Thus, this passage is telling us that we know how to behave every moment of our lives. Thus, this passage is telling us that we must act as if we are the physical church every moment of every day because were are in the mystical church every moment of every day. You claim this is talking about a physical church. So you are claiming we are only being called to act this way when we are among believers within the church. One of these interpretations helps us carry out the great commission and one does not.

God bless you.

 

[Leslie_Polley]

And please show me where the Presbyters were not appointed by the Apostles. I really need to see that scripture. We are all to preach the good word. That is not a Presbyter though.

In the Catholic Bible they are call presbyter, in King James they are called elders and niether place does it say that the apostles. Act:11:29-30 Acts 15:1-12

In Acts 14:22 the Apottles appointed Presbyters by the laying of hands
1 Tim 4:14 The GIFT you have which was CONFERRED ON YOU through the IMPOSITION of the LAYING OF HANDS.

2 Tim 1:6 stir into the flame of God that you HAVE thorugh the Imposition of my hands.

Titus 1:5 APPOINT presbyters in every town as I directed you
1 Tim 5:22
James 5:14

Anyone who is ill should send for the ELDERS of the CHURCH and they must ANOINT the sick person with OIL in the Name of the Lord and Pray Over Them.

Why lb. Why does the elders do this? You claim you can, then why did Jesus tell the people who are sick to send for the elders of the church then?

You know I have alot of Love and respect for you lb you are one of my favorites. But in light of that, SO you know this is said from the goodness of my heart How can you say that I am wrong, and my Faith is wrong when All we are doing is following GOds word. Please give me all of that scripture back according to your bible.

 

[Drawmack]

Got with the dictionary now I am back with you…QUOTE.Protestant…1. A member of a Western Christian church whose faith and practice are founded on the principles of the Protestant Reformantion especially in the acceptance of the Bible as the sole source of revelation, in justification by faith alone and in the universal priesthood of all the believers. 2. A member of a Western Christain church adhering to the theologies of Luther Calvin or Zwingli. 3. One who supported the protestation presented by the GermanLutheran states ag ainst the revocation of the decree of the Diet of Speyer . 4. One who makes a declaration or an avowal, or relating to Protestans or Protestantiam. From the Latin Protestans…Present participle of protestari to protest…That of course was the last line, wnicn means that it has the least signifigance. If your going to quote it quote it all. Not just what is convinient.

Now I am not protestant, I am Penticostal.

All due respect Leslie, Pentecostals are protestants (by the 2nd definition) because they hold very closely to Calvin’s doctrines. I will grant that it is more accurate to define your actual denomination than to use the lumping or Protestant, but Pentecostals are a subset of Protestants.

 

[zach_dunn]

Got with the dictionary now I am back with you…QUOTE.Protestant…1. A member of a Western Christian church whose faith and practice are founded on the principles of the Protestant Reformantion especially in the acceptance of the Bible as the sole source of revelation, in justification by faith alone and in the universal priesthood of all the believers. 2. A member of a Western Christain church adhering to the theologies of Luther Calvin or Zwingli. 3. One who supported the protestation presented by the GermanLutheran states ag ainst the revocation of the decree of the Diet of Speyer . 4. One who makes a declaration or an avowal, or relating to Protestans or Protestantiam. From the Latin Protestans…Present participle of protestari to protest…That of course was the last line, wnicn means that it has the least signifigance. If your going to quote it quote it all. Not just what is convinient.

Now I am not protestant, I am Penticostal.

Where do Pentecostals differ from definition number 1?

 

[Axion]

Within the Catholic Church there are over 20 Rites. According to Rome the Orthodox Churches have valid sacraments, but according to the Orthodox Churches Rome does not have valid sacraments. The Catholic Church contains Thomists and Molonists. But, you proclaim one single and unified theology. That simply is not true! Catholics are unified on about as much as Protestants are.

No. Catholic “rites” are not separate Churches or belief systems, but simply different traditions (and languages) of worship. All Catholics accept the same doctrines.

People may have diverse opinions within catholicism on some topics such as Molinism, but these have to be within the overall doctrinal teachins and pronouncements of the Church. This is unlike protestants who diverge on things as important as Baptism, communion, how you get salvation, whether there is eternal security, whether there are miracles, pentecostalism, free will etc. etc.

 

[Axion]

If you choose to worship a church as it if were God feel free but that is not what the Bible teaches me.

No-one worships a church. However we are told by Jesus to join and remain in His ONE Church.

 

[Axion]

“I will build my Church” (not Churches) (St. Matt. 16, 18). Protestantism is not one united body in doctrine and discipline, but a series of disparate organizations antagonistic not only to Catholicism but also often to each other.

“One flock, one shepherd” (St. John 10, 16). The central authority of the Pope of Rome has kept the Catholic Church united in doctrine and discipline since the days of the Roman Empire. Protestantism continues to splinter with the advent of each new self-appointed “prophet” who claims to hold the true meaning of Sacred Scripture.
Holy

“And for their sakes I sanctify myself, so that they also may be sanctified in truth” (St. John 17, 19).
The true Church will be holy in Her founder, teachings and worship. There is no guarantee that all its members will practice what She preaches as is gathered from Our Lord’s images of the sower of the seed (St. Matt. 13, 18-23), the net enclosing the fish (St. Matt. 13, 47-52), and the sheep and the goats (St. Matt. 25, 31-46). The survival of the Catholic Church despite the examples of “bad Popes” only reinforces the fact that the holiness of the Church derives from Christ and Him alone.
Catholic

“Going therefore and make disciples of all nations…” (St. Matt. 28, 19).
Remaining essentially one and the same, the Church adapts to all times, places and people.

The true Church will trace its history and doctrine right back to the Apostles themselves: “I am with you always…” (St. Matt. 28, 20). It was not established in 1517, 1534, 1540 or in the nineteenth century. It must have existed since the Apostles, exist now, and continue until the end of the world.
Only the Roman Catholic Church can show itself to be One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic.

 

[wisdomseeker]

IT makes sense to me WS

You are saying Jesus sent his Disciples to teach and they were human and visible.
Then you are showing how Jesus promised the Power of the HS to guide the Apostles and their successors into the fullnes of the truth. So they cannot be led astray.

THen you explain the sacrament of Confession. (MY favoriite of all)

THen you showed scripture of how Jesus told Peter to take care of us and feed us the truth so we can not be led away from the flock.

Any the last one. ( I think you mean there that Jesus died for his Church),

How did I do, Did I pass my test

yes, you did very good. the last is about how the early Christians died, did they die for an invisible Church? or visible Church? you are brilliant. it just shows how one understands the Faith.

i thought that all my questions were very clear… of course if one came up with the idea of invisible Church none of what i said makes any sense.

**“Love men, slay error, without pride be bold in the Truth, without cruelty fight for the Truth.” St Augustine **

 

[JustaServant]

Got with the dictionary now I am back with you…QUOTE.Protestant…1. A member of a Western Christian church whose faith and practice are founded on the principles of the Protestant Reformantion especially in the acceptance of the Bible as the sole source of revelation, in justification by faith alone and in the universal priesthood of all the believers. 2. A member of a Western Christain church adhering to the theologies of Luther Calvin or Zwingli. 3. One who supported the protestation presented by the GermanLutheran states ag ainst the revocation of the decree of the Diet of Speyer . 4. One who makes a declaration or an avowal, or relating to Protestans or Protestantiam. From the Latin Protestans…Present participle of protestari to protest…That of course was the last line, wnicn means that it has the least signifigance. If your going to quote it quote it all. Not just what is convinient.

Now I am not protestant, I am Penticostal.

If you are not Catholic, and you deny being Protestant, your only other choice is a cult…

 

[wisdomseeker]

When you demonstrate the ability to post something that actually makes sense I’ll respond to it.

try this one then. “One Faith, One Baptism, One Lord, One Church. One Spirit.”

are you saying that Catholics and protestants are of One Faith, One Spirit…?

**“Love men, slay error, without pride be bold in the Truth, without cruelty fight for the Truth.” St Augustine **

 

[Prieldedi]

False premise! The word trinity is not used in the Bible. The word rapture is not used in the Bible. And, from a Catholic perspective, the word purgatory is not used in the New Testament. Here’s your straw man back, why don’t you put him up in your corn field where he might actually do some good?

The Church that gave you the Trinity and Purgatory is the Catholic Church. She has AUTHORITY given to Her by none other than Jesus Himself. It’s in the Bible but Protestants reject it. No one else has that Authority: you don’t, I don’t, Luther DIDN’T, no Pastor has it today.
I can name you your straw man: Luther. Do you follow him in all his teachings? I asked you in a previous post why aren’t you a Lutheran. Christian, which is what you put as your religion, has not the same meaning today as it did in the first 16 centuries AD.

False premise. The Protestant teaching is that it has to be taught by the Bible in order to be believable. This being the case, we do accept the trinity even though that word is not in the Bible. That being the case, we can speak of the invisible church that is clealy implied by scripture while it is not explicitly stated. Here is a second straw man for you, I hope you have a big corn field.

The Bible doesn’t teach. People teach. Bishops and Priests teach about our faith. The first Bishops (the Apostles) were instructed by Jesus to do it and to select those who would continue after them. And they were not carrying a Bible under their arms! I’m still looking for the straw man… nowhere in sight.

And Protestant churches as well as the Catholic Church are incredibly visible in the world. Any idiot can open a phone book and prove that. However, the Church that Jesus instituted is the invisible church which covers the world in his grace and glory working through every flawed church built and maintained by man’s hands. If you take these verses in context, of the Sermon on the Mount, it is clear that the you in this is the communion of believers – he said you in a public sermon – and not one specific physical church.

Who was the first Christian to upheld that truth you believe in, the invisible church? Can you show us when and where did it happen? We can show the when and where of the Trinity and Purgatory teachings of the Church.

Yeah, that is a prophesy about the physical church to come during the millenial reign. I understand that Catholics are amilenial in their beliefs, however ammillenialism is actually a development which is difficult to trace to before about 500 ad.

Have you read the Church Fathers? You’ll be amazed at what you’ll find they were saying between the second half of the First Century and the year 500 AD.

This passage is speaking of physical churches, do I really have to point out that the word churches is pluralized in this verse? I guess that is because it is talking about the One, True, Church and not many churches. Might I ask why you capitalized the word churches? What gives you the right to change scripture?

Because those Churches were all Catholics. It happens that Protestants use those passages to argue that in the beginning there were “churches”, just like today are countless denominations/churches. The point is that they were VISIBLE, not invisible, they were all under the VISIBLE head of the Church, the Bishop of Rome.

If we replace church, which again YOU capitalized, in this statement with communion of believers it still makes perfect sense. However, if we replace church in this verse with Magisterium it stops making sense.

Of course the Church is formed by believers, but believers are not non physical. And among the believers there are the Leaders of the Church, the Pope, the Bishops, the Elders, the Presbyters, the Priests, the Deacons. They have/are the Magisterium. It’s just people… but with Authority and Authority to teach.

Let’s look ahead to Acts 9:34. Who heals the lame man? It is Paul? Is it the Church? No, it is Jesus Christ!

Did Ananeas just get up after hearing an “inner voice”? Or did he hear it from the Church, from the very First Pope, Peter, who gave him a very physical command? Acts 9:34, «Peter said to him, “Aeneas, Jesus Christ heals you; get up and make your bed!” And the man got up at once."» Have you consider what would have happened to Ananeas if Peter had remain silent?

(continued … I hate character limits)

I don’t like it either.

continues…