Anti-Catholics: Catholics 'work their way into Heaven', but 'have no fruits (or works) proving their salvation. Which is it?
- Status
T
tweetiebird
Guest
Yes it almost seems, protestants are discouraging good works. What is wrong with good works? I see how you could run into problems if you move into a cave in the wilderness, and sell all your stuff and give to the poor, and then think you are saved.
But what is wrong with good works in general???
But what is wrong with good works in general???
J
JRKH
Guest
There is nothing wrong with “good works” in general. Most of the conversations I have had with protestants comes down to understanding where the works come from…In other words…Most protestants simply have a different construct of where they put “works”.
Another aspect is how a person defines “works” as they relate to salvation. There are works of charity…and there are works of law. Some protestants see Catholic “ritual” (required mass attendance, priestly confession etc) as ritualistic requirements similar to OT “requirements of the Law” - which is what Paul was talking about when he said we are not saved by works of the law.
Catholics of course do not think of these things in the same way…But it can be important in some conversations to understand just what “works” the other is objecting to…
Peace
James
T
tweetiebird
Guest
Thank you very much for the response.
I have several family members who have converted to various protestant denominations. They use to be Catholic. I am happy they found something that helps them in life. But they have the need to convert me, so I am left trying to study their various arguements .
But as far as “GOOD WORKS”
Here is what I come up with
But when I first hear this on face value. It seems to be telling you not to perform good works, just believe in Jesus.
I have several family members who have converted to various protestant denominations. They use to be Catholic. I am happy they found something that helps them in life. But they have the need to convert me, so I am left trying to study their various arguements .
But as far as “GOOD WORKS”
Here is what I come up with
- going to a homeless shelter after work to feed the homeless
- donating money to overseas missonary
- volunteering at your daughters school
- returning a billfold you found
- going to mass
- saying your rosary
- being nice to coworkers
But when I first hear this on face value. It seems to be telling you not to perform good works, just believe in Jesus.
J
JRKH
Guest
OK…Well you found a good resource here
But as far as “GOOD WORKS”
Don’t disturb yourself. There is nothing wrong with any of this.
There is a pretty fair consensus that Luther suffered from scruples and possibly some other disorder…but I don’t wish to malign the guy…Truly I don’t.
There is a grain of truth in the idea that we cannot be saved by our works. The Catholic faith is in firm agreement on this with our protestant brothers…
The most common argument that I have found on this issue is that the “Faith Alone” adherent will say that “works” (such as St James refers to in his epistle) are a result of true faith. A component of faith rather than something separate from it.
As a Catholic I have no problem with recognizing this way of looking at the matter. For what St James says is that “Faith without works is dead”, and a dead faith obviously cannot save anyone… Thus…works, as Holy Scripture shows, are a necessary part of a true, living, saving faith…No works…dead faith…dead faith…no salvation…
See how they respond to that line of reasoning…
The one other aspect of this is the idea that they have “faith” and we don’t - instead relying on works…I’ve heard this referred to as a “Works based” salvation. But, since the Catholic Church calls for us to believe all of the things in the Creed…It seems pretty clear that we are firmly based in faith first upon which is built the various “works”…
Peace
James
R
rfournier103
Guest
Good for you for trying to enlighten yourself and defend the faith. One thing I could never understand about SOME Protestant denominations is their burning desire to poach as many Catholics as possible. I suppose your family is trying to “help” you, but sadly, if they took the time to learn their Catholic faith, it’s quite possible they never would have left.
Here’s James 2:14-26
vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__P11W.HTM
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.”
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
Code:
We MUST have God's Holy Grace to save us. NO ONE will dispute that. We MUST have faith. However, IF we have that faith; we must do as God commands us. We MUST provide good works for our fellow man. Feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, etc...
Would you not agree?
F
Farsight001
Guest
I guess maybe some of them think we believe that we work our way to heaven, we’re just really REALLY bad at it.
J
JRKH
Guest
It has to be painfully obvious that if there are former Catholics who are touting this “works salvation” nonsense…then It says something unflattering about Catechesis among Catholics…
Peace
James
Peace
James
S
stevekehl
Guest
E
emarc
Guest
hi justaservant,
a flawed assertion by anti-Catholics. we don’t work our way into heaven, we are saved by Grace. we feed the hungry, give cups to the thirsty, etc. because as what Jesus said " not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven but only those who do the will of my Father." God bless.
I
Izdaari
Guest
I would say, if you’re depending on works for salvation, and don’t have any works to show for it… you’re not doing so good.
You’re right, you can’t have it both ways.
They don’t have a very good understanding of Catholic theology I guess.
I
Izdaari
Guest
Which is not quite right, because if you believe in Jesus, you should do what he taught… and he taught that we should do good works. Not as a way of earning salvation, but because they’re the right thing to do.
J
JRKH
Guest
Steve…I agree…Not the best choice of word to use in a conversation with non-Catholics…
But then again - as Catholics understand these things - I would note that in the judgement scene of Mt 25:31-46 points to things we’ve done (actions or works)…Just saying…
Curious…What word might you choose to substitute in that sentence?
Peace
James
C
Contarini
Guest
Yes, that is about it. And the further claim, of course, is that all humans are really bad at it, so that paradoxically the only way to do good works is not to try to work your way to heaven.
Edwin
I
Izdaari
Guest
Paradoxical but true. No amount of good works is enough to earn divine perfection. It’s an impossible standard to measure up to. But still, by grace through faith, we are counted as good enough. By faith in Jesus, who taught us to do good works.
M
Michael_jarman
Guest
I guess the Kjv doesnt have James 1:22-24,James14-17. I forgot the kjv had books taken out.
C
Contarini
Guest
This kind of facile sarcasm doesn’t advance the discussion.
Protestants are well aware of these passages in James. They see them typically as saying that works are evidence of true faith. Which is the point of the anti-Catholic criticism that the OP mistakenly finds to be self-contradictory. In Protestant theology, if you are trying to earn your salvation, you won’t produce good works. If you put your faith in Christ, you will.
Please explain how the passages from James you cite contradict this theology.
Edwin
J
JRKH
Guest
I agree…Though I think that all of us, from time to time, get a bit sarcastic…I know I do…
Ed,
I sometimes think that the big trouble on both sides of these discussions is a tendency to “caricature” some position. Or apply an extreme position too broadly. Certainly we Catholics are sensitive to this when we see others claiming that “Catholics believe this” or “Catholics do that”…and it is simply not true…Likewise I think that we Catholics, and I know I have been guilty of this, can do this same thing. the whole “Faith / Works” discussion is a prime example…
My guess is that the majority of protestants, at least the majority who come here, are appalled at the idea of anyone teaching a theology of faith without works. In the same way, and flipping the coin so to speak, the Catholic is appalled at the idea of someone promoting works without faith…
For myself, I am more than happy to agree with the statement between the Vatican and one of the Lutheran groups…Can’t think of the document right now…that basically says that one can rightly say that one is saved by faith alone…If one has a proper understanding of what a saving faith entails…
One last thing in regards “earning” salvation…As you well know, sometimes words are used that may not be perfectly descriptive of what is trying to be conveyed. They just seem to be the best that can be found…or seem to be the best choice to the person using it at that time. Even Jesus, in His teaching would sometimes use analogies, terms and so forth that were less than perfect, or could be misunderstood. Remember that the Apostles and other disciples spent a lot of their time pretty confused.
Words like “earning” and “merit” fall into that category of being easily misunderstood. Perhaps a better word than these might be “worthy”…As an example from my own life…
I Love my wife more than anything else this side of heaven. She is simply the most wonderful person I have ever known. Because I Love her and even more because she loves me, I wish to show myself worthy of her love. I wish to “merit” her Love…and Each day, I wish to “earn” her continuing love…Not because I am worried that she won’t love me…but because I wish to please her, to thank her, to make her happy etc…So that we can be together today, tomorrow and all the days that God gives us together…
So - in this example above, terms that are used in a monetary sense, are here used in a different sense. Not a sense of checks and balances or a scorecard…but to convey the idea of wishing to please.
One of my favorite lines from the Gospels is Luke 17:10.
So you also, when you have done all that is commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.’
But of course we know our God is Loving…and we hope that, after our sojourn here is complete and we stand before Him with the above statement on our lips, we will here Him say:
Well done, good and faithful servant (Mt 25:21)
Sorry - Got long winded…
Peace
James
Hi James,I agree…Though I think that all of us, from time to time, get a bit sarcastic…I know I do…
Ed,
I sometimes think that the big trouble on both sides of these discussions is a tendency to “caricature” some position. Or apply an extreme position too broadly. Certainly we Catholics are sensitive to this when we see others claiming that “Catholics believe this” or “Catholics do that”…and it is simply not true…Likewise I think that we Catholics, and I know I have been guilty of this, can do this same thing. the whole “Faith / Works” discussion is a prime example…
My guess is that the majority of protestants, at least the majority who come here, are appalled at the idea of anyone teaching a theology of faith without works. In the same way, and flipping the coin so to speak, the Catholic is appalled at the idea of someone promoting works without faith…
For myself, I am more than happy to agree with the statement between the Vatican and one of the Lutheran groups…Can’t think of the document right now…that basically says that one can rightly say that one is saved by faith alone…If one has a proper understanding of what a saving faith entails…
One last thing in regards “earning” salvation…As you well know, sometimes words are used that may not be perfectly descriptive of what is trying to be conveyed. They just seem to be the best that can be found…or seem to be the best choice to the person using it at that time. Even Jesus, in His teaching would sometimes use analogies, terms and so forth that were less than perfect, or could be misunderstood. Remember that the Apostles and other disciples spent a lot of their time pretty confused.
Words like “earning” and “merit” fall into that category of being easily misunderstood. Perhaps a better word than these might be “worthy”…As an example from my own life…
I Love my wife more than anything else this side of heaven. She is simply the most wonderful person I have ever known. Because I Love her and even more because she loves me, I wish to show myself worthy of her love. I wish to “merit” her Love…and Each day, I wish to “earn” her continuing love…Not because I am worried that she won’t love me…but because I wish to please her, to thank her, to make her happy etc…So that we can be together today, tomorrow and all the days that God gives us together…
So - in this example above, terms that are used in a monetary sense, are here used in a different sense. Not a sense of checks and balances or a scorecard…but to convey the idea of wishing to please.
One of my favorite lines from the Gospels is Luke 17:10.
So you also, when you have done all that is commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.’
But of course we know our God is Loving…and we hope that, after our sojourn here is complete and we stand before Him with the above statement on our lips, we will here Him say:
Well done, good and faithful servant (Mt 25:21)
Sorry - Got long winded…
Peace
James
There are a couple of documents along this line, the most notable being the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification.
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html
Jon
S
stevekehl
Guest
Not a good choice of words for a conversation with any Christian. I would have said invited into heaven, we only get in with God’s invitation.
My point in all of this is that we should place no faith in our works. In Matthew where Jesus says the sheep visited Him, clothed Him, fed Him, the faithful ask when did we do these things? They were caught off guard. They were acting out the fruits of the Spirit. If God moves us to act can we take any credit for it? It is easy to take pride in works, to start trying to balance works and sins, eventually to try to make up for sinful habits with works (which is Hinduism and Buddhism). Works have a definite place in the Christian life. They teach, discipline, cause faith to grow, extend God’s love to the unsaved, model Christian behavior to young believers, a smarter person can think of many more benefits. But it is a mistake to think works are involved in salvation. Jesus said people will do great works in His name, but He will never know them Matt. 7:22& 23 This is kind of out of context, Jesus talking about recognizing false teachers, but serves as an illustration.
- Status