"Anti-patriarchs"?

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I was recently reading some articles on various antipopes, and I started to wonder: are/were there any equivalents in the Eastern/non-Roman Churches? That is, “anti-patriarchs” installed in opposition to the legit Patriarchs of the Eastern Churches?

Thanks.
 
I was recently reading some articles on various antipopes, and I started to wonder: are/were there any equivalents in the Eastern/non-Roman Churches? That is, “anti-patriarchs” installed in opposition to the legit Patriarchs of the Eastern Churches?

Thanks.
Yes, there have been – and some have led to schisms within the Church where they were installed.

Deacon Ed
 
Yes, there have been – and some have led to schisms within the Church where they were installed.

Deacon Ed
Thanks for the quick reply! 👍

Do you have a name or two that I can get started with?

Thanks.
 
I was recently reading some articles on various antipopes, and I started to wonder: are/were there any equivalents in the Eastern/non-Roman Churches? That is, “anti-patriarchs” installed in opposition to the legit Patriarchs of the Eastern Churches?

Thanks.
Yes, but it is not really the same thing considering the fact that a patriarch doesn’t claim the same position the pope holds.
 
Yes, but it is not really the same thing considering the fact that a patriarch doesn’t claim the same position the pope holds.
I don’t think Patriarch Michael Caerularius, late of Constantinople, would have agreed with you.

CDL
 
I don’t think Patriarch Michael Caerularius, late of Constantinople, would have agreed with you.

CDL
Did you have to bring that name into this? Quick, hide the key to the tabernacle!! Don’t let anyone into the church who is carrying a ladder or a hammer. Lock the doors. Guard the Most Holy Sacrement.
 
I am not sure what you mean by that.
He Michael was the guy who wrote to the Pope telling the Pope that he felt he was equal or even greater than the Pope. He first formulated the theory that all the bishops, or at least all the patriarchs are equal but then claimed to be greater then all the others for himself. He basically wanted to be Pope but just wasn’t and this want to have the power of the Pope taken away from Rome and given to himself ended with the schism that continues to this day, (with little hiccups of reunion sprinkled here and there).

He was excommunicated in 1053 for breaking open a tabernacle that contained the body and blood of Jesus in the Sacrement and throwing it on the floor and stepping on it. This excommunication was lifted in the 1060’s by Pope Paul VI.

It should be noted that after Michael was excommunicated, he attempted to excommunicate the Pope and establish himself as Pope, just without the name Pope. Patriarchs of Constantinople were able to do that under the Muslim rule of the Ottomans. Luther took lesson from this activity when he attempted to excommunicat the Pope of his time a full year before the Pope excommunicated Luther.
 
He Michael was the guy who wrote to the Pope telling the Pope that he felt he was equal or even greater than the Pope. He first formulated the theory that all the bishops, or at least all the patriarchs are equal but then claimed to be greater then all the others for himself. He basically wanted to be Pope but just wasn’t and this want to have the power of the Pope taken away from Rome and given to himself ended with the schism that continues to this day, (with little hiccups of reunion sprinkled here and there).

He was excommunicated in 1053 for breaking open a tabernacle that contained the body and blood of Jesus in the Sacrement and throwing it on the floor and stepping on it. This excommunication was lifted in the 1060’s by Pope Paul VI.

It should be noted that after Michael was excommunicated, he attempted to excommunicate the Pope and establish himself as Pope, just without the name Pope. Patriarchs of Constantinople were able to do that under the Muslim rule of the Ottomans. Luther took lesson from this activity when he attempted to excommunicat the Pope of his time a full year before the Pope excommunicated Luther.
I think your history is a little faulty. First of all, the patriarch and all of the Greeks were excommunicated in 1054 by Cardinal Humbert because they did not have the filioque in the creed and when Humbert went to Constantinople he placed a bull of excommunication on the altar at hagia sophia. Patriarch Michael Cerularius returned with an excommunication on Humbert. The matter of the Eucharist which you speak of was after this event as far as I am aware. And to clarify, his actions weren’t meant to be an affront to the Eucharist but were basically a statement that the Latin use of unleavened bread was invalid and it was not the Eucharist. He was certainly wrong in what he did and it was an evil thing that he did but the fact is that it was not out of hate for the Eucharist as could be inferred from your post.

No, the Patriarch of Constantinople wasn’t trying to be a pope without the title pope. That is like an Orthodox Christian claiming that Catholics teach that the pope represents a higher level of ordination than bishop, which is false.
 
I think your history is a little faulty. First of all, the patriarch and all of the Greeks were excommunicated in 1054 by Cardinal Humbert because they did not have the filioque in the creed and when Humbert went to Constantinople he placed a bull of excommunication on the altar at hagia sophia. Patriarch Michael Cerularius returned with an excommunication on Humbert. The matter of the Eucharist which you speak of was after this event as far as I am aware. And to clarify, his actions weren’t meant to be an affront to the Eucharist but were basically a statement that the Latin use of unleavened bread was invalid and it was not the Eucharist. He was certainly wrong in what he did and it was an evil thing that he did but the fact is that it was not out of hate for the Eucharist as could be inferred from your post.

No, the Patriarch of Constantinople wasn’t trying to be a pope without the title pope. That is like an Orthodox Christian claiming that Catholics teach that the pope represents a higher level of ordination than bishop, which is false.
I must disagree with you. Only the patriarch was excommunicated, not all the Greeks. In fact, the way I see the history here, the Latins were hoping that the Greeks would stand up to the patriarch and not let him get away with these kinds of attacks on religious matters. However, the issue in Greece became one of Greeks against the outsiders and we all see where that kind of prejudice got us.

The other thing is that the excommunication was not because of the Filioque. It is true that the Filioque was a small part of what started the trip to Greece but it was not even close to the main issue, just a footnote. In all of the times that the Legets and the patriarch actually met, they never once even mention the Filioque. The real issue was over ecclesiatical territory that was vailed as a dispute over leaven or unleaven bread. The Filioque was not an issue that the Greeks held against the Latins until all the Greeks came to agree that unleaven bread was also valid the same as leaven bread, just as the pope had always taught. Once that happened, the Filioque which is a Latin translation of a phrase used in the East to begin with, was the new banner to take up to justify not coming back into communion because they wanted to remain separated from the Latin and would take any issue to do it.

The last thing that I will mention is that the patriarch was not excommunicated over the Filioque. They hardly mentioned it. It wasn’t an issue. On top of that, he was not excommunicated because he would not submit to the authority of the Pope, nor was he excommunicated for not working with the Pope to resolve the issue in southern Italy. Nor was he excommunicated for closing down the small number of Latin churches in Constantinople. He was excommunicated specifically and only for the action of breaking open a tabernacle, throwing Jesus on the floor and stepping on him.

Another point to note, any Bishop could and should have excommunicated the patriarch for this action. This is exactly the kind of action that should cause all Christians to shun a person so that the person repents and is reconciled with the Church. Even is the Pope did this kind of action, he would be in danger of being validly excommunicated and having his office taken from him.

It is so very unfortunate for all of us that these trajedies of a personal nature should extend and cause a schism between two sides of the same ONE Church. At this point in time all of the theological issues have been resolved, includeing the Filioque which has been resolved eight times so far. Yet, we are still in a practical sense separated. Our leaders can come together over and over again and say that we are one Church but our peoples don’t accept it.

Sometimes in all of this I get the feeling to tell some on this issue of schism what gets directed at Americans a lot of the time,“there is a world outside your boarders you know.”
 
First of all, can you give me a theologian who gives your take on the events of 1054? I have never heard this take.
The last thing that I will mention is that the patriarch was not excommunicated over the Filioque. They hardly mentioned it. It wasn’t an issue.
Here is what the Orthodox theologian bishop Ware says,

The choice of Cardinal Humbert was unfortunate, for both he and Cerularius were men of stiff and intransigent temper, whose mutual encounter was not likely to promote good will among Christians. The legates, when they called on Cerularius, did not create a favourable impression. Thrusting a letter from the Pope at him, they retired without giving the usual salutations; the letter itself, although signed by Leo, had in fact been drafted by Humbert, and was distinctly unfriendly in tone. After this the Patriarch refused to have further dealings with the legates. Eventually Humbert lost patience, and laid a Bull of Excommunication against Cerularius on the altar of the Church of the Holy Wisdom: among other ill-founded chardes in this document, Humbert accused the Greeks of omitting the Filioque from the Creed! Humbert promptly left Constantinople without offering any further explanation of his act, and on returning to Italy he represented the whole incident as a great victory for the see of Rome. Cerularious and his synod retaliated by anathematizing Humbert (but not the Roman Church as sych). The attempt at reconciliation left matters worse than before. [The Orthodox Church, Second Edition, p58-59]

Second, the filioque is not solved nor has it ever been solved. Florence didn’t solve anything. Just read any Greek theologian. Try reading Metropolitan Zizioulas’ books and you will see the difference in Trinitarian theology. Read Lossky. Almost all Orthodox theologians will disagree with the assertion that the filioque controversy is solved. And if the east doesn’t think it is solved then it isn’t. One side can’t simply say it is solved.
the Filioque which is a Latin translation of a phrase used in the East to begin with, was the new banner to take up to justify not coming back into communion because they wanted to remain separated from the Latin and would take any issue to do it.
100% false. There is no valid translation of the filioque into Greek and that is why Rome doesn’t expect the Greeks to hold to the filioque theology. They took it from Latin theologians. The Greek creed does not contain it. It does not equate to the Greek ‘ekporousis’ which means procession from a source and is used in the Greek creed.
 
There have also been anti-bishops.

The fall out was started because the Normans invaded Muslim Sicily and wanted the native Greek structure replaced with a Latin one. When the Pope obliged then Michael Cerularius flipped and shut down all the Latin Churches in Constantinople and accused them of heresy.

The think to be remembered is that Ecumenical Councils had decided that the Patriarch of Constantinople had no power outside of Thrace and Asia Minor. But in the robber Quinisext Council in the 7th century that was just designed by the Emperor as vitriole towards the Latins with condemnation of every minor difference they had also given the Patriarch of Constantinople control over the other Eastern Patriarchs, and equality with the Pope, and while the Pope threw this out he couldn’t stop the Byzantine Emperor enforcing it. Later on in the mid 8th century an Iconoclast Emperor without even a robber council to justify it stole southern Italy, Sicily, Greece, Albania and Serbia from the Pope’s jurisdiction and gave them to the Patriarch of Constantinople. Thus Sicily should have been under direct Papal jurisdiction anyway
 
I don’t think Patriarch Michael Caerularius, late of Constantinople, would have agreed with you.
Good point. The Patriarch of Constantinople does wield the same Authority over the Church that the Pope does. Ironic. 🤷
 
Good point. The Patriarch of Constantinople does wield the same Authority over the Church that the Pope does. Ironic. 🤷
They did claim Supremacy (but not by that name) over the Eastern Orthodox for a while til they got weakened by the national churches breaking free and the Turkish government weakening the Patriarch massively. In fact some of the Eastern Catholic Churches joined the Catholic Church because they got more freedom under Rome than Constantinople (this is especially true of the Melkites but also in a way of the Maronites) and that is why the Bulgarian Church originally was Latin
 
They did claim Supremacy (but not by that name) over the Eastern Orthodox for a while til they got weakened by the national churches breaking free and the Turkish government weakening the Patriarch massively. In fact some of the Eastern Catholic Churches joined the Catholic Church because they got more freedom under Rome than Constantinople (this is especially true of the Melkites but also in a way of the Maronites) and that is why the Bulgarian Church originally was Latin
Yes it does seem to have taken the role that Rome often was.
 
Jimmy,

Thank you. I too was troubled by some of the historical claims that Claudius made. You saved me the trouble of asking him for evidence to back them up. (I notice you didn’t address the claim about Pope Paul VI lifting the excommunication in the 1060’s. But I suppose that one didn’t really need to be addressed, as it would make him over 900 when he died. :))

One question: where (in what church) did this incident of Michael Cerularius “breaking open a tabernacle that contained the body and blood of Jesus in the Sacrement and throwing it on the floor and stepping on it” take place?

Thank you in advance,
Peter.
 
Jimmy,

Thank you. I too was troubled by some of the historical claims that Claudius made. You saved me the trouble of asking him for evidence to back them up. (I notice you didn’t address the claim about Pope Paul VI lifting the excommunication in the 1060’s. But I suppose that one didn’t really need to be addressed, as it would make him over 900 when he died. :))

One question: where (in what church) did this incident of Michael Cerularius “breaking open a tabernacle that contained the body and blood of Jesus in the Sacrement and throwing it on the floor and stepping on it” take place?

Thank you in advance,
Peter.
That event took place in Constantinople. He ordered it because it was unleavened bread and consequently he did not think it valid. It was a blasphemous and sacreligious act but it was not the reason for the excommunication.
This excommunication was lifted in the 1060’s by Pope Paul VI.
Hahaha, I didn’t notice this. He rivals the men before the flood.
 
According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, it was Michael’s chancellor, Nicephorus, who did the desecration of the Blessed Sacrament.
 
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