Anti-Semitism = Anti-Zionism?

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a search on keyword anti-Zionism gets a dozen hits of previous threads discussing this question.
 
Pope_Noah_I said:
What is the Catholic Church’s view on Anti-Zionism? i found this article, which refers to a “Vatican document” That states anti-zionism is anti-semitism. Is this really the position of the Church?

jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/002462.php
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That’s not quite what the article said. It said that the Church condemns anti-zionism when it is a cloak for anti-semitism. It then goes on to say that anti-zionism usually is a cloak for anti-semitism. The two things do have the potential to be different; the first one opposes an ideology, and the second opposes a people, who are not always proponents of Zionism.
 
chosen_people said:
What make these non mainstream goups the “true Torah Jews”(sic!)?
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Yeah, I have to agree with you.

I have a close friend who is very Orthodox Jewish and we have often discussed that there a great many people who claim to be Jewish who are in fact not.

As you have pointed out from time to time on here, it is virtually impossible for modern faithful Jews to take claims by Christians that they are Jews seriously when the plain fact that we declare Jesus to have been the messiah and the incarnation of God in the flesh is blasphemous to the Jewish faith.

We may have had our roots in Judaism, but we are not Jews.

I think it’s very important to read the actual document from the Church so I am including here a link to the JOINT DECLARATION from the Vatican website so it can be considered in its context. I have no issues with Israel being a nation any more than I have a problem with Russia or any other country that has emerged through the struggles of people. (Hey, if one can justify anti-zionism, then does that mean that those same arguments would invalidate our right to have the United States? After all, we came into being through great struggles as well? Just a thought…)

BTW Noah, you do realize don’t you that the article you link to, and the declaration itself are now some 5 years old or so? PA’s right, the search feature will find quite a few threads on this from the past.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.
 
Spirithound said:
That’s not quite what the article said. It said that the Church condemns anti-zionism when it is a cloak for anti-semitism. It then goes on to say that anti-zionism usually is a cloak for anti-semitism. The two things do have the potential to be different; the first one opposes an ideology, and the second opposes a people, who are not always proponents of Zionism.
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I agree with you. But I don’t understand why anti-Zionism usually is a cloak for anti-semitism. It could be used as a cloak. I think to state that “anti-zionism = anti-semitism” raise such a question is a zionist idea and is used to silence anyone who dares to criticize zionist crimes, Israel’s zionist regime or talk about occupation of Palestinian land. It is as absurd as to say that those who are against mafia is anti-Italian, or those against communist ideology are anti-Russians. Not every Zionist is a Jew and not every Jew is a Zionist. It is an absurd to raise such a question.
 
The notion that anti-zionism, is usually a cloak for anti-semitism is presumptuous and ad-hominum, not to mention illogical. For one, “anti-semitism” as commonly used to mean “anti-jewish”, is fraudulently misleading. Semite is a racial term. Most Semites, something over 90% in fact, do not identify with Judaism, but are “Arab” Moslems or Christians. Many who identify with Judaism are not Semites. On the other hand, many, in fact MOST “Zionists”, at least in this country, are not “Jews” but fundamentalists Christians, for example the late Jerry Falwell, or say a Jimmy Swaggart. They subscribe to a false theology known as Dispensationalism and have a carnal view of end time prophecy and beleive in Christ’s returning to establish an earthly kingdom, a pre-condition of which is an earthly, Jewish Israel. Our former President, Mr. Bush, is a Zionist, and our new President has recently claimed to be one as well.

I must also take exception to your assertion that their “belief is God” is what makes them Jews. Many Jews, almost all I have known do not believe in God at all. They’ll tell you so. But being Jewish is important to them none the less. Don;t beleive me, beleive our Lord, pardon is I paraphrase: “If you believed in God you would believe in me”.

To truly love the Jews, is to pray for their conversion. It is necassary for their salvation, as it is for Moslems, Hindus and formal Protestants. This is simply a fact, the essence of dogmatic and irreformable Catholic teaching for nearly 1.900 years up and through the First Vatican Council.
 
mulligan59 said:
The notion that anti-zionism, is usually a cloak for anti-semitism is presumptuous and ad-hominum, not to mention illogical. For one, “anti-semitism” as commonly used to mean “anti-jewish”, is fraudulently misleading. Semite is a racial term. Most Semites, something over 90% in fact, do not identify with Judaism, but are “Arab” Moslems or Christians. Many who identify with Judaism are not Semites. On the other hand, many, in fact MOST “Zionists”, at least in this country, are not “Jews” but fundamentalists Christians, for example the late Jerry Falwell, or say a Jimmy Swaggart. They subscribe to a false theology known as Dispensationalism and have a carnal view of end time prophecy and beleive in Christ’s returning to establish an earthly kingdom, a pre-condition of which is an earthly, Jewish Israel. Our former President, Mr. Bush, is a Zionist, and our new President has recently claimed to be one as well.

I must also take exception to your assertion that their “belief is God” is what makes them Jews. Many Jews, almost all I have known do not believe in God at all. They’ll tell you so. But being Jewish is important to them none the less. Don;t beleive me, beleive our Lord, pardon is I paraphrase: “If you believed in God you would believe in me”.

To truly love the Jews, is to pray for their conversion. It is necassary for their salvation, as it is for Moslems, Hindus and formal Protestants. This is simply a fact, the essence of dogmatic and irreformable Catholic teaching for nearly 1.900 years up and through the First Vatican Council.
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Maybe the Vatican needs to study Dispensationalism. If the folk in the Vatican ignore what US Protestants actually believe, they are in danger of becoming irrelevant 😦 Dispensationalism is moonstruck nonsense, but that is no reason to imagine people are incapable of believing it. Maybe there should be ecumenical talks with (among others)​

  • Jack Chick
  • John Hagee
  • John Macarthur
  • Tex Marrs
  • Michael Gendron
  • Dave Hunt
  • the folk at Jesus-is-Lord
  • James White
  • etc.
  • where’s the kudos in talking only to those who are quite close to one’s own position 🙂 ?
Am I the only person on this thread to find it weird that some Christians are eager to be counted as Zionists ? :eek:
 
Gottle_of_Geer said:

Maybe the Vatican needs to study Dispensationalism. If the folk in the Vatican ignore what US Protestants actually believe, they are in danger of becoming irrelevant 😦 Dispensationalism is moonstruck nonsense, but that is no reason to imagine people are incapable of believing it. Maybe there should be ecumenical talks with (among others)​

  • Jack Chick
  • John Hagee
  • John Macarthur
  • Tex Marrs
  • Michael Gendron
  • Dave Hunt
  • the folk at Jesus-is-Lord
  • James White
  • etc.
  • where’s the kudos in talking only to those who are quite close to one’s own position 🙂 ?
Am I the only person on this thread to find it weird that some Christians are eager to be counted as Zionists ? :eek:
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No, you are not the only person who finds it weird. I am in your company. In fact I think it is beyond weird, as to me, Christian Zionist is an oxymoron. It is tantamount to a rejection of the very Gospel to which they claim to hold. It is a total contradiction. Was Jesus Christ the Messiah or not? Was He not the perfect sacrifice? If so, is not the notion of rebuilding the Temple and reestablishing animal sacrifices (an ultimate goal of the Zionists) a sacrilege? It should be so obvious and simple. But to your point about “dialogue” and “relevancy”, I would say that the truth is the truth, and therefore relevant, whether anyone believes it or not. Our Lord said, “Think ye that when the Son of Man returns He will find any faith on earth?” Unfortunately the word Christian is about as misused today as are the words Semite and Zionism. I would say to their faces, given the opportunity, that those on your list are not Christians at all. Our Lord warned us about such as these as well. I don’t think that the Vatican has done much to add shall we say “clarity” in the last 50 years.
 
The ancient Romans could not fathom how, if the God of the Jews was the one almighty God, the Jews had fallen under Rome’s power.

The Roman Empire has long since crumbled to dust. All the other nations and peoples of the Roman empire are no more. Only the Jews remain. It is seemingly impossible that they of all the world’s ancient peoples have survived, but they have. Even more remarkable, that they have survived despite the animosity against them, through centuries of adversity aimed to make them victims for their stubborn insistence to continue to remain being Jews.

The Jews had only themselves and their eternal covenant with God. The Jews survived.

They are no longer a vassal state but have regained sovereignty over their homeland. This too is a seeming impossibility. They regained their independence a mere three years after one third of the Jewish people were destroyed in the genocide of the Shoah. They regained their independence despite being immediately attacked by the armies of five nations. In both cases the world stood by and watched. When Hitler rose to power the world shut their borders to the Jews leaving the Jews to his murderous wrath. During World war II not one country could spare one bomb on even one mission to put Auschwitz out of commission for even a single day. When the Jewish state was attacked not one country sent one soldier to help the survivors of Auschwitz. Instead they imposed arms embargoes to prevent the Jews from defending themselves.

The Jews had only themselves and their eternal covenant with God.The Jewish nation was not extinguished forever in the ashes of the Shoah, the Jews won their war of re independence.

That the Jewish state survives today is also a seeming impossibility. It sits on a mere one per cent of the land of the middle east, in an area roughly the size of the state of New Jersey, surrounded by a billion enemies. It could not possibly survive but it does. Despite its precarious position it is seemingly so strong as to be deemed an “aggressor” by those who wish it ill.

The Jews make up a mere one quarter of one per cent of the world’s population. The have only been allowed to integrate within general western society in the last two hundred years. So small in numbers it is a seeming impossibility that Jews should be even seen or felt. However, despite their minuscule numbers their contributions to society are so vast that their enemies accuse them of “controlling the world”.

The ancient Romans could not fathom the God of the Jews. Today, their descendants cannot look at the Jew and not believe in God.

(This is an article I wrote in english in February for someone but I feel it is appropriate to answer many of the posts here. Please ask for permission for any use outside of this forum)
 
I kind of think that the Billions of dollars of US aid that Israel receives and has received every year for at least four decades, the fighter planes, the tanks, etc., courtesy of the American taxpayer, has something to do with Israel’s “miraculous” survival.

I think 50 million people died in WWII. In the 1920s and 30s millions of Catholics were slaughtered by Communist Russia’s commissars. But these victims are not continually celebrated by the world.

I do agree with you (Chosen People) that to see and understand the status of the Jews in the world does reinforce faith in God. There can only be a supernatural explanation. Their numbers are small, their influence is enormous. Every Hollywood Studio, every major newspaper, ABC, CBS, Fox News, the Federal Reserve, the Bank of England. Every leftist social movement from the Russian Revolution to today’s ACLU, NOW, NARAL, Rainbow Coalition, you pick one, founded or dominated by Jews. This is not the ramblings of “prejudice”, these are simple, factual, observations.

However while I think their aid is supernatural, it is not from God. Our Lord said to the Pharisees, “If Abraham was your father you would know me…” Do you know how the quote ends? Our Lord also said that his diciples would be “hated” by the world.
So success in this world isn’t really the measure of God’s favor.
 
Anti-Zionism is not = to Antisemitism, because Zionism = Fascism, and the Second Holocaust that is going on now in the occupied by Israelis Palestinian territories is a prove of it. Those billions of our tax payer’s $$$$$ were ‘successfully’ used to wipe Palestine from the map of the world. What Nazis did to the Jews, the Jews are doing to Palestinians: youtube.com/watch?v=zhvwegJmEco
 
Posts #13 and #14 make the link between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism far more emphatically than I or possibly anyone else could 👍
 
paskauskas said:
I agree with you. But I don’t understand why anti-Zionism usually is a cloak for anti-semitism.
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Because it almost always is. I don’t know how else one could explain that. But I’ll say it a different way. Groups that hate Jews often cloak their hatred by saying “we don’t hate jews, we are just against zionism.”
 
mulligan59 said:
The notion that anti-zionism, is usually a cloak for anti-semitism is presumptuous and ad-hominum, not to mention illogical.
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Quite the contrary. The notion is born out in reality and history. The Church didn’t say make this up. It simply acknowledged the fact that historically, the majority of antizionists were antisemites.
or one, “anti-semitism” as commonly used to mean “anti-jewish”, is fraudulently misleading. Semite is a racial term.
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No. The use of the term was simply adopted by jew haters to make their hatred of jews appear scientific. They stole the word and made it into something else. And your argument here is exactly why they use the word.
 
chosen_people said:
Posts #13 and #14 make the link between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism far more emphatically than I or possibly anyone else could 👍
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It seems our Jewish friend is saying that our arguments (the last couple of posts) actually prove his assertion, that in fact anti-zionism and anti-semitism are the same. At the extreme, that is akin to saying that opposing Israel’s bombiing of Beirut is the same as hating all Jews.

He feels no need to counter any specific fact put forth (such as the Palestinians are also semites, yet Israel persecutes them). No, simply by pointing out obvious, undeniable differences between the meaning of Zionism and Semitism we are guilty of hating Jews. It’s quite extraordinary, really it is the way a school yard bully argues. But it seems he is content to believe it. The ultimate “passive/agressive”.
 
Valke2 said:
Because it almost always is. I don’t know how else one could explain that. But I’ll say it a different way. Groups that hate Jews often cloak their hatred by saying “we don’t hate jews, we are just against zionism.”
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How could that happen. I have never met such group or person. Here in US most people don’t even know what Zionism is. The mainstream media does a “good” job hiding it from the people. The context of occupation of Palestine by Zionists is always missing in the news from Palestine.
Zionist ideology is a Fascist ideology. Zionism represents itself as a political movement concerned principally with the establishment of a state in Palestine to be controlled by and for Jews. In its current form Zionism seeks to dominate all of Palestine and the Middle East by means of violence and the threat of violence (using weapons manufactured and purchased with billions of dollars of “aid” supplied by the United States at taxpayer expense).
What is going on in occupied Palestine now - is Second Holocaust.
Not every Zionist is Jew and not every Jew is Zionist. Many christian groups are pro-Zionist.
 
If the ones who oppose Zionism are “anti-Semites”, how should be the Jews or Jewish organizations who oppose Zionism be called “self hating Jews”? We are pretty good in labeling people. Aren’t we?
 
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