Anti Vatican II Catholics - I'm confused

[CMatt25]

Hey Matt,

Good to see you again.

Except Vatican II specifically required the retention of Latin:—Sacrosanctum Concilium #36, Dec. 4, 1964

I hate bilingual Masses…Spanish/English and other hybrids that become necessary because nobody shares a commont tongue anymore. If the Church had obeyed the Council, all Catholics would have enough familiarity with Latin that when there are bilingual communities, the Mass could be in a tongue all Latin rite Catholics know.

Oh well…my rant. The post-conciliar era of the Church is marked much more in my opinion, by disobedience to Vatican II restraints, then any so-called liberty to do that which Traditionalists deplore. As a whole, if the Church had been obedient to Vatican II on the single subject of seminary formation, we would have Traditional priests using more vernacular. There is nothing wrong with vernacular, but there is something wrong with disobedience to the Council in excising Latin so completely that we now have a generation of Catholics who know nothing of their Church’s native tongue.

Good to see you again as well Rory. Do you hate Mass said in one vernacular? For instance one of the churches I attend has Masses in English, Spanish, and Vietnamese which are the 3 main languages of the parishoners. It doesn’t mean an English speaking person can not attend the Spanish or Vietnamese Masses. And a Spanish or Vietnamese speaking person can attend the English. I only attend the English because other than a very little Spanish I am not bilingual. But there are Spanish and Vietnamese speaking parishoners who accompnay me to the English Mass.

 

[pnewton]

I would like to weigh in for the OP. I spend some time all over these forums, including the Traditional Catholicism forum. I think you did the right thing by asking the question here. Catholic Answers tends to attract a rather orthodox group of Catholics and that area has much more criticism for the Church than your average Catholic. Here is my opinion after puttering around over there since it started.

Five hundred years ago due to the increase of scholoarships and an opening of minds to new things, some Catholics thought that they should be able to read the Bible for themselves (good), develop their own understanding of Scripture (okaaayyyy) and separate into different groups of Christians based on this understanding (bad). Welcome Luther, Calvin and company. From the Scripture alone, we have seen Christianity split into thousands of different and separate churches. This much division has been spawned by opinions of that one source, the Bible.

Now as Catholics, in addition to the Bible, which is the original Church document, we have libraries full of encyclicals, bulls, councilliar documents and writings of the Fathers, Doctors and Saints. Like the four blind men who each grab one part an elephant, we see some traditionalists focusing and putting greater emphasis on this document, or this Saint, than the Catholic Church does, and arrive at the conclusion that the Catholic Church is wrong in the writings of Vatican II. Some even believe that the pope is a heretic, based on their interpretation of tradition, and separate from the Catholic Church, or more accurately, believe they are the real Catholic Church and everything else is an apostate Church.

Now, as Catholics have such a strong bond of unity, these groups are extremely small splinters. Most traditionalists, going by the selection we have a CAF, will never go so far in their beliefs as to break from the Holy Father. Indeed, as with any group, the tradtitionalist here have a lot to offer and some very valid points about dangers the Church face.

I would say whatever you do, ask yourself what is it about the Catholic Church that makes her different from anything else on Earth. Is it not that She is the living embodiment of the Bride of Christ on Earth? Is it not that through all the trials, sins and messes that the authority Jesus passed to Peter passed from person to person for a thousant years and now resides with Benedict XVI? Then whatever one does, staying close to that Church is the first, primary and only job.

 

[4Squarebaby]

I used to live pretty close to a Church that was Traditionalist, Our Lady of the Angels in Arcadia, CA. They were sedevacantist and belonged to the SSPX. I didn’t have much interaction with them, but one of their priests used to be on a local cable channel with a few other priests, discussing the fact that the Roman Catholic Church of the modern era was apostate. They weren’t particularly wild-eyed, but they would have made Martin Luther look like Fidei Defensor

Ok, first I want to strongly advise you to stay away from SSPX, sedevacantists, or any other “traditionalist” catholic group. Make sure whatever church you attend is fully recognized and approved by the bishop of your diocese. The traditionalists, for lack of a better term, are rebels/schismatics/renegades who teach different things than the real Catholic Church. The largest of them, the SSPX, is in negotiation with Rome to try to reconcile the differences. The negotiations are not going well because their beliefs are not in line with what the Church teaches.

Basically the traditionalist movement began around the time of Vatican II. Vatican II was the first ecumenical council in nearly 100 years and some people were not satisfied or were confused about what the Council taught. An especially sensitive issue was the changes in the liturgy from Latin to the spoken language, which confused and upset many people. The general confusion led to some demagogues and suspended priests to form new movements and parishes which claimed that Vatican II was not of God. I strongly urge you to stay away from these cult-like groups. Vatican II is one of the historic ecumenical councils of the Church. It cannot be in error, anyone who says otherwise is attacking the very basis of the Church’s teaching authority.

That happened to be the first Catholic Church my wife and I visited, it is near my church home. I’m curious bottom line is it or isn’t it a Catholic Church?

 

[choy]

sadly, this small minority are the most active and “noisy”

same with abortionists and proponents of same-sex marriage. not a lot of them out there, but they do make the most noise. like a pack of lions against a herd of antelope

by the way, i noticed i have a personal troll. i am honored.

 

[tsering]

I would like to weigh in for the OP. I spend some time all over these forums, including the Traditional Catholicism forum. I think you did the right thing by asking the question here. Catholic Answers tends to attract a rather orthodox group of Catholics and that area has much more criticism for the Church than your average Catholic. Here is my opinion after puttering around over there since it started.

Five hundred years ago due to the increase of scholoarships and an opening of minds to new things, some Catholics thought that they should be able to read the Bible for themselves (good), develop their own understanding of Scripture (okaaayyyy) and separate into different groups of Christians based on this understanding (bad). Welcome Luther, Calvin and company. From the Scripture alone, we have seen Christianity split into thousands of different and separate churches. This much division has been spawned by opinions of that one source, the Bible.

Now as Catholics, in addition to the Bible, which is the original Church document, we have libraries full of encyclicals, bulls, councilliar documents and writings of the Fathers, Doctors and Saints. Like the four blind men who each grab one part an elephant, we see some traditionalists focusing and putting greater emphasis on this document, or this Saint, than the Catholic Church does, and arrive at the conclusion that the Catholic Church is wrong in the writings of Vatican II. Some even believe that the pope is a heretic, based on their interpretation of tradition, and separate from the Catholic Church, or more accurately, believe they are the real Catholic Church and everything else is an apostate Church.

Now, as Catholics have such a strong bond of unity, these groups are extremely small splinters. Most traditionalists, going by the selection we have a CAF, will never go so far in their beliefs as to break from the Holy Father. Indeed, as with any group, the tradtitionalist here have a lot to offer and some very valid points about dangers the Church face.

I would say whatever you do, ask yourself what is it about the Catholic Church that makes her different from anything else on Earth. Is it not that She is the living embodiment of the Bride of Christ on Earth? Is it not that through all the trials, sins and messes that the authority Jesus passed to Peter passed from person to person for a thousant years and now resides with Benedict XVI? Then whatever one does, staying close to that Church is the first, primary and only job.

Thanks…this debate doesn’t deter me at all. It actually just goes to blast another one of my prejudices against Catholics and helps me come one step closer to joining the Catholic Church. In the NT I see great diversity and differing opinions, but a rallying around Christ and his representative…Peter. It’s good to still have that diversity in the Church, but still be one…that’s a miracle of God.

 

[RoryMcKenzie56]

Good to see you again as well Rory. Do you hate Mass said in one vernacular? For instance one of the churches I attend has Masses in English, Spanish, and Vietnamese which are the 3 main languages of the parishoners. It doesn’t mean an English speaking person can not attend the Spanish or Vietnamese Masses. And a Spanish or Vietnamese speaking person can attend the English. I only attend the English because other than a very little Spanish I am not bilingual. But there are Spanish and Vietnamese speaking parishoners who accompnay me to the English Mass.

Hi Matt,

I don’t like Mass in one vernacular if a siginificant number of people in the parish don’t speak it. Otherwise, I am not in favor of Latin except that it seems like the best candidate for the continuing universal tongue of the Catholic Church. I have been to Vietnamese/English Masses too and I didn’t think it was satisfying.

Your own practice shows how vernacular Masses tend to be divisive. You only attend the English. Others only attend the Spanish. When the Italian and German immigrants came over to the United States, they discovered priests and the same Church, whether they were Irish, Italian, or just plain American…who spoke the language which they had grown up with in Church. It would have been a touch of home in a foreign land. Instead, now the Vietnamese and Spanish have to look around to find a Catholic Church they can understand. Because of the elimination of a universal tongue, the parishioners of different ethnicities do not mix as readily as they would if EVERY Mass was in the same language.

I am not against vernacular. Latin was once vernacular. Pick a language that is better, but lets not have dozens. I could go on and talk about the translation problems when a zillion committees and authorities get involved with how to word things. You may know that even in a very common and large language like English, there have been significant translational problems. The Holy See allows years to correct the problems and forty years later we still have the same bad translations. When St. Pius V, in the 1570’s promulgated the Tridentine Mass, in an era when communication was less than instantaneous, he directed that in Italy the then “New Mass” wouls be used in weeks, and across the Alps he gave them months. And it happened!

CMatt, I don’t hate non-Latin prayers. I am for unity and love and diversity. Vernacular Masses unintentionally destroy the unity that should bind Vietnamese, Chinese, Spanish, and English speaking Catholics in this country. We already have a tendency to not mingle with people of other nationalities and languages. When parishes are composed of multilingual communities, it seems imperative to have one universal tongue, or else recognize the unhappy fact that you have two parishes using the same grounds and buildings.

 

[Bbigam]

That happened to be the first Catholic Church my wife and I visited, it is near my church home. I’m curious bottom line is it or isn’t it a Catholic Church?

Unfortunately, it’s not always quite that simple. If it was a sedevacantist group - a group that claims that the See of St. Peter is vacant - I would say that it is not Catholic but is a group in full schism from the Catholic Church, rather like the Orthodox or Old Catholics. SSPV is very close to this position but as far as I can tell doesn’t officially state it. Stay away and certainly don’t receive Communion there.

If it was a group like SSPX, SSPX is Catholic and they recognize the Holy Father… but they don’t actually listen to him and reject Vatican II and the Ordinary Form of the Mass, and all their clergy are suspended, not permitted to celebrate the sacraments publicly. I would say generally avoid worshipping with them as well since they are dissenting and suspended.

It doesn’t sound like this would be the case, but if it was FSSP or ICRSS or a similar group, it is Catholic and in full communion and good standing with the Holy Father. But if the individuals there espouse sedevacantist or anti-VII/Ordinary Form views, that’s just as problematic as a regular diocesan parish that is dissenting on the liberal side. Be careful.

 

[4Squarebaby]

Unfortunately, it’s not always quite that simple. If it was a sedevacantist group - a group that claims that the See of St. Peter is vacant - I would say that it is not Catholic but is a group in full schism from the Catholic Church, rather like the Orthodox or Old Catholics. SSPV is very close to this position but as far as I can tell doesn’t officially state it. Stay away and certainly don’t receive Communion there.

Is that because you believe Jesus is not there, He broke with that church as they broke with Rome, or you just don’t hold communion with political/theological enemies even though Jesus is there?

 

[choy]

Is that because you believe Jesus is not there, He broke with that church as they broke with Rome, or you just don’t hold communion with political/theological enemies even though Jesus is there?

Communion, the word itself mean to become one with, in this case,the Body of Christ
Christ calls His Church His body
if a church or group is in schism, then they are not one with the Church. therefore receiving communion there doesn’t make you one with the Church that church or group is part of

remember, receiving the Body, Blood, Divinity, and fullness of Jesus Christ is just one of the effects of the Eucharist. it also binds you into Jesus and His Church. that is why its also called communion.

 

[Bbigam]

Is that because you believe Jesus is not there, He broke with that church as they broke with Rome, or you just don’t hold communion with political/theological enemies even though Jesus is there?

Choy answered pretty well. A schismatic or semi-schismatic church may have valid sacraments including the Real Presence of Christ. The schismatic Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox certainly do, as well as impaired-communion SSPX. But they are separated from the true Church that Jesus founded, the Catholic Church. Thus we are not in full union with them, and Holy Communion is a sign of full unity in Christ. So we don’t share Communion with anyone outside the Catholic Church.

It would be a little bit like if I traveled to the United Kingdom and expected to vote in the elections there. They are “valid” elections but I’m not a British citizen so it doesn’t make sense for me to be allowed to vote there. Difference, of course, is that we believe the Catholic Church is the one true Church Christ founded, and the United States is no more the one true nation than anywhere else.

 

[pnewton]

Peter. It’s good to still have that diversity in the Church, but still be one…that’s a miracle of God.

Unity in the essentials, tolerance in the non-essential, and charity in all.

 

[Seminarian]

Whell Mate i would advise u dont listen to these anti Traditionalists !! SSPX is your best bet of obtaining the closest thing to the catholic faith !! Read about arch bishop lebfere !! Ok many many men in the seminary were leving because of an infultration in the higher pristhood of pedophiles comminist atheist etc ther for one thing to TAINT the doctrine pope st pius the tenth new this was happening in 1910 he made a prayer for every catholic to take an oath agains modernism which is now represt! !! Arch bishop lebfere Had these priests coming to him saying they wanted to be priests but not “NOVS ORDO” and he wrote to the pope asking to ordain some bishops for a society and pope said yes but held off and held off waiting for the arch bishop to Die so he ordained them without the pope. SSPX is not in Scism !! We say a cannonised mass !! Unchangeble like a saint !!

Here is what "Novis Ordo Do, they give comunin on the hand, Heresy. They removed Blesed salt and Holy oil in Baptism !!

They have alter girls which wasnt allowed untill 1983 they dont pray the rosary the dont pray to St Michael the Arch angel they do not have a taberbacle they do not genuflect they do not talk about hell!! they class ALL religion of equal salvation so why be a moden catholic when youl be saved anyway ??? The sacrements are all we have dont damn your soul by reciving an invalid host !!! Read the catechism !! Read the Douay rheims Bible!! Read AA1025 !! PRAY PRAY PRAY !! SSPX is not in scism !!! I dont care mate if u wany belive these morons SSPX is on the rise Watch out VATICAN II ist gona come crashing down !!!

 

[Cruxis117]

Whell Mate i would advise u dont listen to these anti Traditionalists !! SSPX is your best bet of obtaining the closest thing to the catholic faith !! Read about arch bishop lebfere !! Ok many many men in the seminary were leving because of an infultration in the higher pristhood of pedophiles comminist atheist etc ther for one thing to TAINT the doctrine pope st pius the tenth new this was happening in 1910 he made a prayer for every catholic to take an oath agains modernism which is now represt! !! Arch bishop lebfere Had these priests coming to him saying they wanted to be priests but not “NOVS ORDO” and he wrote to the pope asking to ordain some bishops for a society and pope said yes but held off and held off waiting for the arch bishop to Die so he ordained them without the pope. SSPX is not in Scism !! We say a cannonised mass !! Unchangeble like a saint !!

Here is what "Novis Ordo Do, they give comunin on the hand, Heresy. They removed Blesed salt and Holy oil in Baptism !!

They have alter girls which wasnt allowed untill 1983 they dont pray the rosary the dont pray to St Michael the Arch angel they do not have a taberbacle they do not genuflect they do not talk about hell!! they class ALL religion of equal salvation so why be a moden catholic when youl be saved anyway ??? The sacrements are all we have dont damn your soul by reciving an invalid host !!! Read the catechism !! Read the Douay rheims Bible!! Read AA1025 !! PRAY PRAY PRAY !! SSPX is not in scism !!! I dont care mate if u wany belive these morons SSPX is on the rise Watch out VATICAN II ist gona come crashing down !!!

I must apologize for sounding rude, but the first thing I noticed was the poor spelling, which in itself shouldn’t matter about truth, but demonstrates to me that maybe there is something wrong with this post. After reading it twice to make sure I understood all the points, I come to the conclusion that you have no idea of what you’re talking about. In the Catechism of the Catholic Church (which was approved after Vatican Council II), it clearly states, in relation to your statement about ‘talking about all religion of equal salvation’:

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved.** Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life**."332

**844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.**333

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.334

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

In this, the Church realizes the that while we must respect others who follow faith traditions, we realize that they have faults and that ultimately, what the believe is in preparation for the Gospel and his Church, for the Gospel is the Truth, above all other ‘truths’ that exist. Frankly, must admit that the part of your post that I bolded to make reference to sounds rather like a conspiracy theory, like Jack Chick and his funny ideas that the Church started Communism and Islam and that Jesuits are spies that infiltrate various parts of society, etc. The fact is, is that yes, the SSPX (when ordaining the four bishops) made a schismatic act (the exact act of ordaining bishops without papal approval that was condemned by Pope Pius XII in 1958, four years before the Vatican II Council) that drove them away from full communion with the Church. And I pray that SSPX can be in full communion with the Catholic Church soon.

 

[PaschalCatholic]

Whell Mate i would advise u dont listen to these anti Traditionalists !! SSPX is your best bet of obtaining the closest thing to the catholic faith !! Read about arch bishop lebfere !! Ok many many men in the seminary were leving because of an infultration in the higher pristhood of pedophiles comminist atheist etc ther for one thing to TAINT the doctrine pope st pius the tenth new this was happening in 1910 he made a prayer for every catholic to take an oath agains modernism which is now represt! !!

I find it hard to believe the action had much to do with pedophiles that were already recognized by other priests. The reason I believe this is because, if we believe your argument for the great character of the priests wanting to leave, wouldn’t they turn their brother priests in for these acts?

SSPX is not in Scism !!

Untrue, bishops and priests are required by vows to remain obedient. If you don’t, your vow is broken, potentially invalidating your later actions.

We say a cannonised mass !!

Yes, and so do we. The novus ordo is the ordinary form of the mass, whereas the Tridentine is the extraordinary.

Unchangeble like a saint !!

Aside from your misspellings, your exclamations make you seem as though you’re trying to incite a riot or overthrow something…perhaps this is why it’s hard to take so many people from this once excommunicated group seriously. (Pope Benedict XVI recently welcomed you guys back in hopes that you could repair relations with the rest of us.

Here is what "Novis Ordo Do, they give comunin on the hand, Heresy.

It is painful to see that you cannot even spell communion correctly, though you can spell heresy (does that not reveal where you priorities lie?).
In my experience Catholics may reverently receive the Eucharist on the tongue or in their hands in any reasonable manner.

They removed Blesed salt and Holy oil in Baptism !!

I honestly do not know anything about this, but blessed has two s’s

They have alter girls which wasnt allowed untill 1983 they dont pray the rosary the dont pray to St Michael the Arch angel they do not have a taberbacle they do not genuflect they do not talk about hell!!

Give me a break friend, the alter girls thing I don’t know much about, but I trust JPII and Ben 16’s judgement that there is no problem there. As far as the other comments I think you’re out of touch with reality, I have only ever attended Novus Ordo and I pray the rosary and ask for St. Michael’s intercession. Also, every church I’ve been in (even very unorthodox ones) have had tabernacles. Haha, and the last one: although many Catholics now do not know that we are supposed to be genuflecting toward Christ and not the alter -thus they genuflect in the wrong direction if the tabernacle is positioned to a side-, many still genuflect.

they class ALL religion of equal salvation so why be a moden catholic when youl be saved anyway ??? The sacrements are all we have dont damn your soul by reciving an invalid host !!! Read the catechism !! Read the Douay rheims Bible!! Read AA1025 !! PRAY PRAY PRAY !! SSPX is not in scism !!! I dont care mate if u wany belive these morons SSPX is on the rise Watch out VATICAN II ist gona come crashing down !!!

As someone said before, the Catechism was approved after Vatican II.
On your last comment, I highly doubt it. We are beginning to reach the full realization of what happened at Vatican II and I believe the personal call to holiness planted some exciting seeds now blossoming. In a few short years, through Benedict’s papacy I believe we have a lot to look forward to -as we always have in this faith.
You seem to know very little about the Novus Ordo, our Popes, or Vatican II. I suggest attending a mass and meeting a strong, vibrant, faithful, and orthodox priest, but if that would be out of the question, at least read some of the VII documents and writings from the Popes since.
God bless,
B

 

[pnewton]

SSPX is not in Scism !! We say a cannonised mass !! Unchangeble like a saint !!

Here is what "Novis Ordo Do, they give comunin on the hand, Heresy.

First, the Mass has changed over the last 2000 years. Second, if you are going to accuse anyone of heresy, perhaps you would be so kind as to show where communion on the tongue has ever been declared a matter of faith and morals, as that is need for this heresy accusation to be valid.

 

[verso_lalto]

Trust me, this is a very involved subject. There are many good “Traditional” ways to celebrate the Mass. (FSSP, Institue of Christ the King, Society of Jesus Christ the Priest) These are all approved by Rome, enjoy full support of Bishops, and are a great way to get started in celebrating th Mass in a more reverant and Christ centered way.

 

[RyanBlack]

whell mate i would advise u dont listen to these anti traditionalists !! Sspx is your best bet of obtaining the closest thing to the catholic faith !! Read about arch bishop lebfere !! Ok many many men in the seminary were leving because of an infultration in the higher pristhood of pedophiles comminist atheist etc ther for one thing to taint the doctrine pope st pius the tenth new this was happening in 1910 he made a prayer for every catholic to take an oath agains modernism which is now represt! !! Arch bishop lebfere had these priests coming to him saying they wanted to be priests but not “novs ordo” and he wrote to the pope asking to ordain some bishops for a society and pope said yes but held off and held off waiting for the arch bishop to die so he ordained them without the pope. Sspx is not in scism !! We say a cannonised mass !! Unchangeble like a saint !!

Here is what "novis ordo do, they give comunin on the hand, heresy. They removed blesed salt and holy oil in baptism !!

They have alter girls which wasnt allowed untill 1983 they dont pray the rosary the dont pray to st michael the arch angel they do not have a taberbacle they do not genuflect they do not talk about hell!! They class all religion of equal salvation so why be a moden catholic when youl be saved anyway ??? The sacrements are all we have dont damn your soul by reciving an invalid host !!! Read the catechism !! Read the douay rheims bible!! Read aa1025 !! Pray pray pray !! Sspx is not in scism !!! I dont care mate if u wany belive these morons sspx is on the rise watch out vatican ii ist gona come crashing down !!!

GARBAGE.

That’s about as kind as I can be in response to this post.