Anticlericalism

[marie3]

I want to deals with the problem of anticlericalism in conservative circles. Absence of vocations of priests among conservative men, criticism and insulting priests for being socialists or communists since the conservative side deserted the priesthood. Criticism of the pope. Excessive valuation of the marital “vocation” , of marital sexuality … they no longer defend the Church or the clergy or the pope but themselves, their masculinity, their sexuality or their family they arery much superior to the pope who does not defend them enough according to them. And y in the Catholic Church, the best part is that of the religious vocation.

 

[Fauken]

I want to deals with the problem of anticlericalism in conservative circles. Absence of vocations of priests among conservative men, criticism and insulting priests for being socialists or communists since the conservative side deserted the priesthood.

I’m sorry, but what are you talking about? What do you mean “conservative men deserted the priesthood”? The “conservative” men I know (and by conservative, I assume you are referring to trads), are split between marriage or the priesthood. I know quite a few who are in seminary.

 

[Lea101]

want to deals with the problem of anticlericalism in conservative circles.

I think you see this generally speaking. You would have difficulty finding a Catholic man wanting celibacy over…well, sex. Especially given our culture now.

If by conservatives, you mean Conservatives (politically speaking) in America, then yes, I do see a huge focus in family and dating. I don’t think that means they’re anti priests, but rather anti priests who disagree with them on politics

 

[Pitcairn17]

What do you mean by “excessive valuation of the marital ‘vocation?’” At a time when record numbers of people are just living together, at a time when there’s a huge drop in church weddings, yeah, sure, let’s devalue marriage as a vocation.

 

[Maximian]

I always get annoyed when people start demanding that posters “define what you mean by” but on this occasion it seems like a difficult subject without agreeing what clericalism and anticlericalism are.

I use the term “clericalism” to mean “attributing power and authority to clergy, which does not belongcto them”. This includes obeying illegal orders from clergymen.

Anticlericalism is harder to pin down but I would say it means “not giving the proper honour and reverence which are due to clergy.” Do you agree? If not could you clarify what you mean?

 

[kapp19]

I want to deals with the problem of anticlericalism in conservative circles.

So do it. Make friends with such people and encourage them to go to seminary and be more balanced.

Out of not-just-curiosity, where are you living? Your statement makes no sense “in general” - be specific. What diocese?

 

[marie3]

I mean that married people believe that they are superior to the priest because the “family” has become more sacred than the Church itself but the Gospel never speaks of family and promotes love “caritas” and never love purely human and Jesus said to pharisians : even you who are bad you give good things to your children how much more your Father in Heaven will give you good things. It means you are not good because you have a wife and you give good things to your children .
Marriage is not a personal vocation but a design of nature. This is the reason why we find a marriage ceremony in all civilizations. Married people are sinners. So that they could approach God and be united with Jesus, Christ left him living signs of his active love. The bishop - the title of priesthood was reserved for him in the first centuries - is in his church the visible presence of Christ from whom he receives powers. Participating in the priesthood of the bishop, priests can also act in persona Christi, “in the very person of Christ”, where they are sent by the bishop to replace him. In front of the assembly, the priest is Christ, especially in the Eucharist. Let’s stop attack the Church !

 

[Fauken]

I mean that married people believe that they are superior to the priest because the “family” has become more sacred than the Church itself but the Gospel never speaks of family

I’m going to say no and no to that one.

Authentic Christian Marriage | Catholic Answers Magazine

Marriage is not a personal vocation but a design of nature.

Yes it is. It is a vocation. I’m guessing you’ve never heard of the fact the family is called “the domestic church”?

https://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c3a7.htm

"1656 In our own time, in a world often alien and even hostile to faith, believing families are of primary importance as centers of living, radiant faith. For this reason the Second Vatican Council, using an ancient expression, calls the family the Ecclesia domestica.168 It is in the bosom of the family that parents are "by word and example . . . the first heralds of the faith with regard to their children. They should encourage them in the vocation which is proper to each child, fostering with special care any religious vocation.“169”

This is the reason why we find a marriage ceremony in all civilizations.

By that logic the priesthood isn’t a vocation either because many civilizations also have an ordained priesthood.

Married people are sinners.

So are priests and bishops.

Your understanding of Catholicism is very, very flawed.

 

[fide]

I’m sorry, Marie3, but you are using the word “clericalism” in ways exactly opposite to its meaning. A good cleric is clerical, but he is not a clericalist. Pope Francis uses the word to describe what a good Catholic bishop, priest or deacon should not be or become:

• Pope Francis has rightly cast a strongly critical light on clericalism in the Church today. To cite one example from one occasion, meeting with the bishops of Chile and Peru (Jan 15–22, 2018), the Pope said:

The lack of consciousness of belonging to God’s faithful people as servants, and not masters, can lead us to one of the temptations that is most damaging to the missionary outreach that we are called to promote: clericalism, which ends up as a caricature of the vocation we have received.

A failure to realize that the mission belongs to the entire Church, and not to the individual priest or bishop, limits the horizon, and even worse, stifles all the initiatives that the Spirit may be awakening in our midst. Let us be clear about this. The laypersons are not our peons, or our employees. They don’t have to parrot back whatever we say. “Clericalism, far from giving impetus to various contributions and proposals, gradually extinguishes the prophetic flame to which the entire Church is called to bear witness. Clericalism forgets that the visibility and the sacramentality of the Church belong to all the faithful people of God (cf. Lumen Gentium, 9–14), not only to the few chosen and enlightened”.

… I am concerned about the formation of seminarians, that they be pastors at the service of the People of God; as a pastor should be, through the means of doctrine, discipline, the sacraments, by being close to the people, through works of charity, but also with the awareness that they are the People of God. Seminaries must stress that future priests be capable of serving God’s holy and faithful people, acknowledging the diversity of cultures and renouncing the temptation to any form of clericalism. The priest is a minister of Jesus Christ: Jesus is the protagonist who makes himself present in the entire people of God.

Tomorrow’s priests must be trained with a view to the future, since their ministry will be carried out in a secularized world. This in turn demands that we pastors discern how best to prepare them for carrying out their mission in these concrete circumstances and not in our “ideal worlds or situations”. Their mission is carried out in fraternal unity with the whole People of God. Side by side, supporting and encouraging the laity in a climate of discernment and synodality, two of the essential features of the priest of tomorrow. Let us say no to clericalism and to ideal worlds that are only part of our thinking, but touch the life of no one.

Clericalism was shown in the “Scribes, Pharisees, hypocrites” - the “clericalists” - of Jesus’ day!
(the above from an article in HPR, Clericalism - Betrayal of the Body of Christ)

 

[fide]

My post #9 shows Pope Francis demonstrating well the term “anti-clericalism”, since he was/is clearly opposed to clericalism.

 

[Irishmom2]

I mean that married people believe that they are superior to the priest because the “family” has become more sacred than the Church itself

Whoa, who, whoa… where are you getting that Idea from? I would love to know where you came up with that.

 

[kapp19]

I am guessing the OP is from a particular kind of place which is neither the USA or Western Europe. I am betting Eastern Europe… just a guess.

 

[Sarcelle]

I have Catholics that do believe that.

There are a few.

However, I attribute it to Protestant influence where celibacy is considered suspect.

The ideal Christian man is married with a stay at home, homeschooling wife.

 

[BornInMarch]

This trend is not surprising to me. Conservatism in the United States is very closely linked with Protestantism and especially Evangelicalism.

 

[marie3]

There has been a reversal of doctrine. The figure of the priest has been desacralized. The priest is no longer a representative of God on earth but a sinner like any other person. On the other hand, the layman put herself on a pedestal. By choosing to refuse the priesthood to live a human love with a pretty woman having children a big car and to make a career he answered a divine vocation !

 

[marie3]

I am from France

 

[JulianN]

The priest is no longer a representative of God on earth but a sinner like any other person.

He is a sinner like any other person. What gave you the idea he is not?

 

[kapp19]

Ahh… now your question makes more sense. Is this a large trend in the traditionalist groups, or do you mean the political conservatives only?

 

[Irishmom2]

There has been a reversal of doctrine. The figure of the priest has been desacralized. The priest is no longer a representative of God on earth but a sinner like any other person.

Once again, where are you getting these ideas from? There has been no reversal of doctrine. This is your opinion, and certainly not the way most Catholics see things.

 

[Polak]

Is this a large trend in the traditionalist groups, or do you mean the political conservatives only?

I was thinking she has a traditionalist in mind who criticises Catholic clergy and the Vatican a lot and tries to make out that he, with his wife and dozen kids, is a type of authority figure on the subject and people should be listening to him and not the ‘rotten and corrupt’ clergy. I can certainly have one person in mind.