Antiquity

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MikeCal2012

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I was wondering, how ancient do Eastern Christians claim their liturgy(s) are?? Traditional Catholic’s claim the Tridentine Mass goes back in most of its essentials to the days of the Apostles. Surely the Eastern Catholics would disagree right? Are there any good studies out there? Personally I think most of it is just speculation, but its interesting
 
MikeCal2012 said:
I was wondering, how ancient do Eastern Christians claim their liturgy(s) are?? Traditional Catholic’s claim the Tridentine Mass goes back in most of its essentials to the days of the Apostles. Surely the Eastern Catholics would disagree right? Are there any good studies out there? Personally I think most of it is just speculation, but its interesting
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There are essential elements in each Liturgy that are the same. This points that there is indeed a common origin which came from the Apostles. Even the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom which was written in 400AD did not look exactly what it is today as it was back then. There have been developments over time.
 
The oldest extant liturgy is the Divine Liturgy of St James, dating to the first century AD, celebrated on special events in the Church of Jerusalem.

The Divine Liturgy of St John Chrysostom dates to the fifth century AD.

The amount of changes are far fewer than one would expect, though the liturgies are not exactly as they once were.

The Tridentine Liturgy was previously a Fransiscan liturgy if my memory serves. It was adopted by the whole of the Roman Church (more or less) near about the Council of Trent. It has recently been superceeded. The Tridentine and Divine Liturgies are not very different at all, so I see no reason to suppose any contention.

The major elements of the traditional liturgies do indeed extend back to the age of Apostles.
 
ZDHayden said:
The amount of changes are far fewer than one would expect, though the liturgies are not exactly as they once were.
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It is quite significant I found. I have the link buried in my emails and I will post it here, but it shows the development of the Divine Liturgy from the time of St. John Chrysostom. For one thing, the entrances were actually “entrances”, people and the clergy entering the Church from a procession around town, rather than what we see today just a short parade around the altar and through the iconostasis.
 
The Roman Mass is itself old enough that we’ve taken parts out over the centuries such that the Roman Canon sounds a little choppy and things like the Kyrie apparently represent the responses of what was originally a Litany similar to the Great Litany and Little Litany in the Byzantine tradition. When I was reading about a history of the Popes, I remember reading that certain Popes were accredited with having added specific parts of the Mass and striking out other parts of the Mass. In its essentials, however, it remains the same. The Sursum Corda, “Lift up your hearts” is absolutely ancient and there is no known liturgy of any of the apostolic Churches that does not have this dialogue. Similarly parts of our more ancient feast day liturgies are pretty old. Parts of the Paschal/Easter liturgies go way, way, way back.

Indeed, we have some general outlines our church Fathers and other ecclesiastical writers in the early Church concerning the liturgies which they were accustomed to. Ones like the Hippolytan house liturgy seem to be ancestral or at least was related to the ancestors of all modern liturgies today. Development has occurred everywhere. The Orthodox just sometimes just enjoy thinking of themselves as much more pure and pristine and unadulterated as any other Christian faith.
ZDHayden said:
The oldest extant liturgy is the Divine Liturgy of St James, dating to the first century AD, celebrated on special events in the Church of Jerusalem.
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I was under the impression that the Hallowing of Mar Addai and Mar Mari were also among one of the oldest extant liturgies so old that the Institution narrative isn’t even mentioned!
 
ConstantineTG said:
It is quite significant I found. I have the link buried in my emails and I will post it here, but it shows the development of the Divine Liturgy from the time of St. John Chrysostom. For one thing, the entrances were actually “entrances”, people and the clergy entering the Church from a procession around town, rather than what we see today just a short parade around the altar and through the iconostasis.
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Pretty much, most especially in Constantinople on feast days.

Also the rite of preparation was sometimes done in a building outside, like an annex or something.

I think Father Taft has a book on these developments. It is probably one of those I owned and never read 😛
 
Hesychios said:
Pretty much, most especially in Constantinople on feast days.

Also the rite of preparation was sometimes done in a building outside, like an annex or something.

I think Father Taft has a book on these developments. It is probably one of those I owned and never read 😛
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The link I had came from a Ukrainian Orthodox source, it was sent to me by our priest some time ago. I have so much junk in my inbox, and I do have a lot of mail from the said priest so its a bit of a challenge to search as I can’t remember the website name to search the URL itself.
 
ZDHayden said:
The oldest extant liturgy is the Divine Liturgy of St James, dating to the first century AD, celebrated on special events in the Church of Jerusalem.

The Divine Liturgy of St John Chrysostom dates to the fifth century AD.

The amount of changes are far fewer than one would expect, though the liturgies are not exactly as they once were.

The Tridentine Liturgy was previously a Fransiscan liturgy if my memory serves. It was adopted by the whole of the Roman Church (more or less) near about the Council of Trent. It has recently been superceeded. The Tridentine and Divine Liturgies are not very different at all, so I see no reason to suppose any contention.

The major elements of the traditional liturgies do indeed extend back to the age of Apostles.
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What do you mean that the Tridentine liturgy has been superseded? In the Latin Church, all priests are permitted to celebrate eith ther Ordinary Form fo the Roman Rite (Mass of Paul VI - c. 1970 missal) or the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite (Tridentine Mass - 1962 missal).
 
ConstantineTG said:
It is quite significant I found. I have the link buried in my emails and I will post it here, but it shows the development of the Divine Liturgy from the time of St. John Chrysostom. For one thing, the entrances were actually “entrances”, people and the clergy entering the Church from a procession around town, rather than what we see today just a short parade around the altar and through the iconostasis.
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I was pretty surprised when I found out that the Divine Liturgy originally “began” at the Little Entrance; the prayers before that we prayers people said on the way to the church, often traveling in groups as a procession.

There are many other changes that have accumulated over time, as you said. I remember reading Fr. Alexander Schmemann’s writings on the subject and being amazed at how much has developed in the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.

In answer to the OP, I doubt many Eastern Christians who have studied the development of Liturgy would claim that the “Tridentine” Liturgy is less ancient than the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom; both have undergone significant developments over the centuries, but retain much of the foundation of the earliest Liturgies.

Peace and God bless!
 
Ghosty said:
I was pretty surprised when I found out that the Divine Liturgy originally “began” at the Little Entrance; the prayers before that we prayers people said on the way to the church, often traveling in groups as a procession.

There are many other changes that have accumulated over time, as you said. I remember reading Fr. Alexander Schmemann’s writings on the subject and being amazed at how much has developed in the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.

In answer to the OP, I doubt many Eastern Christians who have studied the development of Liturgy would claim that the “Tridentine” Liturgy is less ancient than the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom; both have undergone significant developments over the centuries, but retain much of the foundation of the earliest Liturgies.

Peace and God bless!
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Good to see you again Ghosty!
 
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