Anullment Issue

[MountainEEr]

Well this is my first post here, apart from research reading, and I wish it were an easier one to write than the trouble I have.

4 years ago, me and two buddies took our freind on a trip for his bachelor party. We all grew up together, dated women who we met at college and all, went to the state college together ect.

Patrick, the groom, and us “told” the girls we were going to California to surf, but we really went (just) a little East to the mountains to climb. We knew they would flip (and i mean flip) out if they knew we were climbing high Grades before the wedding.

Anyway, their marriage turned out to be a disaster, they divorced not 22 months later, and were granted an anullment a short time ago. I hadn’t called then in a while, and when I finally did call, Marina his ex/wife answered and told me they had split, and just gone through anullment. She told me that he had “confessed” to cheating on her before their wedding, specifically, the trip we all had went on.

She told me he had said that him and our other freind Kirin went out one night, and met two girls at a club, and they had a one night stand. Odd, because the four of us were around 5000 feet up the “supposed” nights that two of them “ditched” the other two of us to go to a club over 600 miles away.

All in all, what was presented for “evidence”? at the tribunal was so blatantly false. Even Kirin and Matt seemed to have lied for him. I moved across the country, so I guess Pat didn’t bother to contact me to back his story up, but the other two did. In short, Patrick seems to have turned what was a simple fib about surfing instead of climbing into a massive lie.

Now, I do know something about Catholocism, and I know that Anullments aren’t given out like candy. I also know (from reading posts here) that infidelity before marriage can be a key point in determining if a marriage was valid.

Is it possible that Pat could have gotten an anullment by lying? I didn’t tell Marina, because although I am not with the girl I dated back then, but I haven’t told the girl I am dating for a short time now about that particular incident. Also, I know Marina will be so very mad at me. I don’t know how she will react.

Do I have an obligation to tell 1) her, and 2) the Church? This is really eating at me. I don’t think it is fair that Patrick could lie his way out of a marriage, only to later meet a new women who he is living with. I have tried calling the other 2 guys, but they aren’t returning my calls. They seem to be avoiding me because they know I am serious about my faith, and this just does not fly with me.

 

[puzzleannie]

number one you have no right to tell this story which involves other people on a public forum

number two, you have no access to the tribunal investigation or proceedings, where testimony from several witnesses is taken, so you do not know the grounds or evidence on which the decision was based.

number three, this is a private situation between two persons and does not involve you, therefore you do not have any interest or obligation in pursuing the matter further.

It is fruitless and dangerous to ever speculate on the spiritual condition of other persons or on matters that relate to the internal forum–whether or not they have sinned, repented from sinning ets. That concern lies between the individual and the confessor and the bishop, who is ultimately responsible for the pastoral care of those under his jurisdiction. Third parties have no concern in such matters. Our duty in Christian charity is always to put the kindest most generous interpretation on anything we may observe, or think we know, about another person.

 

[1ke]

I completely disagree with what puzzleannie has written.

You called the woman and didn’t know what had happened. She told you that they had gotten a divorce, sought an annulment, and that her husband had confessed to cheating on a date/time you know he did not cheat. She also told you the other two friends confirmed his story that you know to be false. You did not seek to put your nose where it didn’t belong, your nose was put there for you by the wife.

So, at this point, yes I do believe you have a moral obligation to tell the truth of what you know. First, however, I would encourage you to tell what you know to your priest and seek his counsel. What you will get here on the forum are a variety of opinions-- but I think the most valuable opinion on this matter will be a trusted priest.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Wow

Take it from some one who has been married a long time; there is more to their separation than a fib or lie from a few years ago. My advice is for everyone to visit the confessional, and move on. It seems as though and underlying theme is if one tells the truth the others will say “oh, well that changes everything” and life would return to the past. Trust me neither will happen, similarly the tribunal has dealt with this before. Confess and move on. A calling to silence is one of the hardest parts of being humble.

 

[masondoggy]

I would let Marina know that you believe it was impossible for him to cheat on her during that specific trip, let her know why and then leave it at that. It’s up to her to do what she wants with the information.

I don’t agree with the poster who said it’s none of your business. It was made your business when she told you what happened, and by you keeping silent, you are in a way participating in the lie as the other friends did.

 

[marci]

I would tell the ex-wife that you believe his story of cheating to be impossible because you were there. But, it is my hunch that she already knows this.

Nothing amazes me anymore and people lying to get an annullment doesn’t surprise me in the least. Not that that’s what they did.

I don’t think there is much you can do about this other than to urge the parties involved to go to confession, it that is, they admit to wrongdoing.

Personally, I think the whole annullment process is so abused that it has become a terrible problem for the stability of sacramental marraige in the church.

My advice is pray for them and speak to your priest.

 

[thistle]

Well this is my first post here, apart from research reading, and I wish it were an easier one to write than the trouble I have.

4 years ago, me and two buddies took our freind on a trip for his bachelor party. We all grew up together, dated women who we met at college and all, went to the state college together ect.

Patrick, the groom, and us “told” the girls we were going to California to surf, but we really went (just) a little East to the mountains to climb. We knew they would flip (and i mean flip) out if they knew we were climbing high Grades before the wedding.

Anyway, their marriage turned out to be a disaster, they divorced not 22 months later, and were granted an anullment a short time ago. I hadn’t called then in a while, and when I finally did call, Marina his ex/wife answered and told me they had split, and just gone through anullment. She told me that he had “confessed” to cheating on her before their wedding, specifically, the trip we all had went on.

She told me he had said that him and our other freind Kirin went out one night, and met two girls at a club, and they had a one night stand. Odd, because the four of us were around 5000 feet up the “supposed” nights that two of them “ditched” the other two of us to go to a club over 600 miles away.

All in all, what was presented for “evidence”? at the tribunal was so blatantly false. Even Kirin and Matt seemed to have lied for him. I moved across the country, so I guess Pat didn’t bother to contact me to back his story up, but the other two did. In short, Patrick seems to have turned what was a simple fib about surfing instead of climbing into a massive lie.

Now, I do know something about Catholocism, and I know that Anullments aren’t given out like candy. I also know (from reading posts here) that infidelity before marriage can be a key point in determining if a marriage was valid.

Is it possible that Pat could have gotten an anullment by lying? I didn’t tell Marina, because although I am not with the girl I dated back then, but I haven’t told the girl I am dating for a short time now about that particular incident. Also, I know Marina will be so very mad at me. I don’t know how she will react.

Do I have an obligation to tell 1) her, and 2) the Church? This is really eating at me. I don’t think it is fair that Patrick could lie his way out of a marriage, only to later meet a new women who he is living with. I have tried calling the other 2 guys, but they aren’t returning my calls. They seem to be avoiding me because they know I am serious about my faith, and this just does not fly with me.

I totally agree with Puzzleannie on this. You should not be pouring this out on a public forum. I really really hope that the names you used are not the real names of the people involved.
You are not allowed to reveal things about people to others who did not previously know them (i.e. us on a public forum) even if what you say is true!

CCC 2477 Respect for the reputation of persons forbids every attitude and word likely to cause them unjust injury. He becomes guilty:

• of rash judgment who, even tacitly, assumes as true, without sufficient foundation, the moral fault of a neighbor;

**- of detraction who, without objectively valid reason, discloses another’s faults and failings to persons who did not know them; **

• of calumny who, by remarks contrary to the truth, harms the reputation of others and gives occasion for false judgments concerning them.

CCC 2479 Detraction and calumny destroy the reputation and honor of one’s neighbor. Honor is the social witness given to human dignity, and everyone enjoys a natural right to the honor of his name and reputation and to respect. Thus, detraction and calumny offend against the virtues of justice and charity.

 

[Jared123]

I would speak with a priest on the matter. I have been through the annulment process and can tell you that there is always more to the story. If your friend lied about this, he probably lied about many other things in the marriage and before. The Priest or Deacons who make up the tribunal are trained to seeing this in the evidence. Also if the marriage only lasted 22 months, that in itself shows something was missing. Were they living together before marriage? Having premarital sex? Did they go through marriage prep, engaged encounter? There is many other issues besides your friend lieing on one issue and this probably wasn’t the only reason the annulment was granted.

 

[YADA]

I too agree with puzzleannie. Also, adultery is not a ground upon which an annullment is granted. I couple could have a valid sacramental marriage and one of them commit the sin of adultry. A sacramental marriage does not mean that both spouses are ‘impeccable’.

A valid sacramental marriage cannot be annulled. A decree of nullity is granted when the tribunal determines that a sacramental union was never made.

Now the fact that one party was inclined to lie about their where abouts [surfing or mountain climbing] could be evidence that they lied about other aaspects of their life. This could be evidence of a lack of maturity and therefore an impediment to the marriage bond.

Was the marrriage entered into ‘freely’ or was it ‘coerced’ as in the shot gun weddings of old…Father of the bride: “My dauhgter is pregnant, marry her or I’ll kill you” Son-in-law: “Yes, sir, whatever you say, sir”

The tribunal knows what it is doing… The questions asked of both parties, and at least two witnesses for each party run into several pages. They cover the family life [growing up] of both partners and what you know of your partner’s family life. Dating and dating habits, your relationship, engagement, the wedding, the honeymoon, and your life together.

The annullment process is comprehensive and cannot be reduced to any one night activity…would not happen in any diocese, with any tribunal…

If I was you; I’d move on and never lie about where you are with any future groom…

 

[queeny]

I am a catholic from Singapore and I have a few questions which I need you to help clarify.
I married a catholic girl 12 years ago non-church wedding (civil marriage) and divorced 2 years later. My second marriage was to a non-catholic girl outside church (she has converted to catholic after our marriage) but the marriage ended up as a divorce as well. I am planning to marry a catholic girl which I am sure she is who I want. My questions are:

a. Do I need to annul my first wedding as it was a civil marriage and not by the church eventhough are we both catholics?
b. Do I need to annul my second marriage as it wa a civil marriage and to a non-catholic before she was baptized? If I do not annul my first marriage, does it mean that my second marriage is also a sin?
c. What must I do in order to remarry my new catholic girl friend in church? Will I put her into sin if I marry her? Does she need to seek her perish permission to marry me?

thank you

 

[Karin]

I am a catholic from Singapore and I have a few questions which I need you to help clarify.
I married a catholic girl 12 years ago non-church wedding (civil marriage) and divorced 2 years later. My second marriage was to a non-catholic girl outside church (she has converted to catholic after our marriage) but the marriage ended up as a divorce as well. I am planning to marry a catholic girl which I am sure she is who I want. My questions are:

a. Do I need to annul my first wedding as it was a civil marriage and not by the church eventhough are we both catholics?
b. Do I need to annul my second marriage as it wa a civil marriage and to a non-catholic before she was baptized? If I do not annul my first marriage, does it mean that my second marriage is also a sin?
c. What must I do in order to remarry my new catholic girl friend in church? Will I put her into sin if I marry her? Does she need to seek her perish permission to marry me?

thank you

First…Speak to your parish priest he is the best one to direct you in what you need to do to enter into a Sacramental Marriage in the Church…

 

[stbruno]

Yes, you do need an annulment, but the process begins with meeting with your parish priest. And do it sooner rather than later, because they are not automatic…and they always take time. In the meantime, make a good confession, attend mass and discuss your issues with a priest. You may not realize that until you get your annulment, you may not receive Holy Communion.

And we all need that spiritual food for our journey, especially me! May God bless you as you enter this next phase of returning home!

 

[Seatuck]

I am a catholic from Singapore and I have a few questions which I need you to help clarify.
I married a catholic girl 12 years ago non-church wedding (civil marriage) and divorced 2 years later. My second marriage was to a non-catholic girl outside church (she has converted to catholic after our marriage) but the marriage ended up as a divorce as well. I am planning to marry a catholic girl which I am sure she is who I want. My questions are:

a. Do I need to annul my first wedding as it was a civil marriage and not by the church eventhough are we both catholics?
b. Do I need to annul my second marriage as it wa a civil marriage and to a non-catholic before she was baptized? If I do not annul my first marriage, does it mean that my second marriage is also a sin?
c. What must I do in order to remarry my new catholic girl friend in church? Will I put her into sin if I marry her? Does she need to seek her perish permission to marry me?

thank you

First you need to start practicing the faith and learning how to do that. You need to see your priest and lay out all the facts for him. You will have to have your two marriages looked at. Most likely they are not valid and would only require the short process- pretty much just paperwork. Please take some time to study what the church teaching on marriage is. You must consider carefully before you make a lifelong commitment.