Anullments really bother me

[kelvinf]

Thank you James and Suslar for the interesting discussion. I think I need to take a break now. I would respond to you guys later. But I think a lot of things have been settled so far.

I think I have been making a mistake with “grounds for an annulment”. I mostly meant grounds for seeking an annulment.

You guys have raised an issue about certain things that might be grounds for seeking an annulment if they happen repeately during the early years of marriage. I will tell you guys about my brother and his wife; how things changed immediately after they got married and what my dear mother and I did to fix the problem.

I strongly believe that exchanging all these experiences help a lot expecially those who are only reading this thread to learn or participating to learn.

BTW, I learn more by arguing.

 

[JRKH]

It is normal that whenever we respond to an issue that someone has posted here, we definitely draw conclusions based on the information the person has offered. We might not always understand the situation the way the person intended but we try to use our prudence to make a judgment on the situation.

I agree - we do tend to draw certain conclusions - myself included. I may well have drawn incorrect conclusions about you based on our discussion here.
I can say that I have been called on the carpet more than once for “jumping to conclusions”…I’ve learned to back off a bit and ask more questions…That seems to keep me out of the worst trouble…well mostly…

From the way she worded her posts, I think it was more than clear to me that she didn’t want to save her marriage. She didn’t respond to the issues I raised and neither did she respond to any other person. Anyways, just a single case.

Well then it could be a case of you having more information than you provided to us. Perhaps if you had linked to the thread…but oh well…

But I have observed and participated on lots of divorce and annulments threads on this forum. I am no newbie. I use the word observe because to observe is more like to listen or to learn. I have learned a lot from those who have been married for a very, very long time and had to detail with marital problems for more than a decade for instance.

Yea - I just looked at your join date…your an oldie like me…
Now I wonder if maybe we’ve had conversation before on this topic…hhmmmmm

Thanks for your insight regarding the bias aspect. Let me put it like this. Maybe I am biased towards always upholding the marital bond (in cases that are just “marital problems” IMO)

Another aspect could be that maybe it’s just a cultural thing. We could start another thread to debate this. I have heard all sorts of reasons why this cloud of annulment hovers over America as opposed to the rest of the world with a larger Catholic population. Again, we probably need another thread for this. But you should understand that non-Americans would definitely not see “seeking an annulment” the way some of you do.
There was a woman from Britain here who took a way much more tougher position than I do and focused on pointing out that it’s just a problem with the American system. (This is not ultimately my view but I do believe there is definitely some cultural difference here.)

No disagreement here. There is bound to be cultural issues involved in these things.

ON the subject of bias, I think my bias lies toward the other end of yours. Not that I favor more liberal annulments, but that I sort of “get my hackles up” when I read things that are critical of the system and of the tribunals. Even though this thread has not attacked the tribunals as such…I know my bias is in here and may even show.

My interest lies less in complaining about the number of annulments and more in determining root causes and seeking solutions to these. That way the number of annulments just naturally drop.

Peace
James

 

[Adamski]

Ok that does it one of my closest friends won’t get married in the church because both of his parents who where swingers got Anullments and are remarried and he thinks it’s bs

 

[TimothyH]

But I wouldn’t seek an annulment to begin with.

And would that mean that there are people who are married but who aren’t married? Are they sinning? I don’t think so. The words that come out of their mouths while taking the vows play a very big role.

I think you are misunderstanding the nature of marriage as a covenant and as a sacrament. Lets take this example…

A man who was addicted to drugs and porn got a girl pregnant. He was scared, but wanted to “Do the right thing” and married her. He thought he loved her and intended to stay married to her for his whole life, and tried his best to do so.

But the man did not know what self-sacrificial love, real love was. A marriage of putting oneself last and putting the other first was not possible for him even if he understood it because his addiction to drugs and porn made it impossible to do anything but live for himself, to satisfy “self” rather than “other”.

So this man steps to the altar and says, “I do.” But wait a minute… His “I do” carries no weight because he can’t say that in freedom. Covenants create family bonds. Marriage is a covenant. The man could not freely enter that covenant. The man was scared, didn’t understand what he was doing and couldn’t live out the demands of the covenant relationship even if he had understood what it meant. The covenant never took effect. God himself would not honor such a covenant. You have to understand what you are getting into, enter into it freely and you have to be able to live it out. This man was not able to do those things and therefor there was no sacrament. It never happened.

I felt the same way you did. I thought I would never seek an anullment until two priests and one deacon all seperately advised me to do so. I was glad I did, because I came to understand what reall marriage was and how I, as a scared drug and porn addict, had no understanding of marriage and would not have been able to live out a real sacrament covenant marriage even if I had understood.

-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

I think I have heard that.

So I think I am an ultra-“defender of the bond”!

You can be an ultra defender of the bond if you want but the Church is the voice of Christ.

For you to come on this website and tell people who have anullments that their anullments are BS is to speak counter to the voice of Christ. You should be ashamed of yourself.

-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

I stand by what I have said. I said:

It seems to me that most people seek annulments when their marriage isn’t going the way they wanted

That statement was carefully worded and there is nothing wrong with what I said. You can certainly disagree with me if you want.

It seems to me that, some people strongly believe that marital problems are grounds for an annulment (according to my observations on this forum)

Still a carefully worded statement and it’s according to my observation. Your own observation might be different, I don’t disagree.

When I read such posts (like that of the woman I quoted above) on CAF about annulments, they sicken me.

Same here. All very carefully worded statements. I know this topic is sensitive since some folks here seem to have had an annulment. So I tried my best to express my opinion in a way that shouldn’t offend anyone. But it seems like I failed big time.

The Church only allows one to file the forms for anullment after the civil divorce is complete. You have to present the divorce decree in order to file for anullment. No divorce, no anullment. It is that simple.

Anullment is not a way out of a marriage when one has problems. The marriage is over by the time someone files for anullment.

-Tim-

 

[Auntie_A]

In my limited view of the world of annulments, it appears that some seek annulments for dubious reasons. But perhaps most of us shouldn’t judge since we don’t see the whole picture and the tribunal does see more of it.

On the other hand, I know some divorced people whom I wish would have sought an annulment, but their immaturity and inability to understand annulment was most likely the same inability to understand a marriage vow. Had they gotten an annulment, (and believe me, these people were not raised, taught, catechized, or treated like you and me), they might have made better subsequent marriages but alas, they did not.

I wish we could teach young people more about dating, love, marriage, family, making a living, forming a conscience, standing alone, having true passion for life. I wish we still posted the banns of marriage. I wish there was more pre-wedding education as well as post-wedding.

 

[kelvinf]

Hi Kelvin,

No, you haven’t offended me. Gosh, at this point in my life, it takes a lot to offend me!

Hey,

I am happy you haven’t found my posts offensive. Apparently, some have. But I stand by the expression of my opinion. In today’s society, it’s almost impossible to have a view (that others can certainly disagree with) and express it without offending someone. I am happy to hear that it takes a lot to offend you. Same here.

My dad had a phrase I’ve come to love. It is “When you know better, then you do better.” I never really got the point of that when I was a kid, but now, it makes so much more sense. You are right – there are lots of people who get married without knowing what they are doing. So, it seems to me, getting married for silly reasons is the problem – not seeking annulment. Right? But once you KNOW what Mother Church teaches, then we are obligated to do better. I’ve been praying for 9 years that God would let me meet and marry a man who knows with the absolute certainty you seem to have that marriage is permanent. I will not ever go thru a civil divorce again so I want my first Catholic marriage to be a sacred, Sacramental covenant. I want a man who will as committed to that ideal as I am – even during the bad days and the rough times that do come in marriage. I’ve not found him yet

Right, it seems some people don’t know what they are doing when they are getting married.

I can understand how difficult it is for you to find the right man. Unfortunately, society has a bad impression about single moms. You are lucky to have been gifted with a dd. I am sure she brings much happiness to your life. I believe you just ought to continue living happily with your dd as you continue to discern God’s plan in your life. Don’t be mad that you haven’t found that man yet. God knows what’s best for you.

There are very few “immediate grounds” – generally, the case needs to be tried by the Tribunal – just like a court case.

Would you mind sharing more light on these “immediate grounds”?

Gosh, I think you are right – I DO sound like a know-it-all! Sorry about that. But like others have said, once you’ve lived it, you have a different understanding. In addition, I volunteer with different groups at my parish and get to help people – both with trying to save their marriages and helping them thru the annulment process once civilly divorced. My preference is to fight for marriage. It really can become a sacred, Sacramental covenant if both parties are committed to working on it. I also use my own story to serve as a witness to how horrible failed marriages are. Divorce wrecks people. It causes wounds that go thru to the soul. It leaves lasting scars. It takes away trust and crumbles friendships and family relationships. It’s a nightmare. My hope is that more people would spend the time upfront to know what they are getting into so as to avoid pain on the back end . . . and that people would find support for marriage in their parishes. It’s hard work to be married, but it’s a billion times harder to be betrayed thru divorce!

Well said! One can learn a lot from people who have experienced this nightmare as you call it. I certainly have. People ought to invest a lot more in the process of discerning marriage but that’s unfortunately not always the case.

 

[kelvinf]

Actually - infidelity (or lewd conduct) is expressly mentioned as an exception to the “no divorce” admonition in the Gospels.

But what’s the interpretation of that?
From the Ignatius Catholic Study Bible:
Jesus’ teaching on marriage, divorce, and remarriage is unfortunately a source of controversy among Christians. Much confusion moves around his statement in Mt 19:9: “Whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another, commits adultery” (cf. Mt 5:32; Mk 10:11-12). Does Jesus really make an “exception” to allow for divorce and remarriage? Since the rise of Protestantism in the sixteenth century, many non-Catholic groups have answered “yes”. They began to appeal to this “exception clause” to justify divorce and remarriage in extreme circumstances. However, this view fails to interpret Jesus’ statement in light of its immediate, biblical context. The disciples’ response to Jesus’ statement on divorce “it is not expedient to marry” (19:10)] demonstrates that, in their understanding. Jesus was leaving no room at all for divorce and remarriage. In fact they viewed celibacy as a preferable alternative to marriage precisely because Jesus’ teaching on this matter is so strict – far more so than that of any of his Jewish contemporaries. The disciples’ incredulous response to Jesus thus confirms the Catholic Church’s constant teaching on the indissolubility of sacramental marriage…
kuro-kuro.org/archives/3838

I disagree with this statement on the face of it. Unless you have data to back it up. I have read many posters here who had no intention of getting remarried yet decided to apply for an annulment for their own peace of mind.

Very well.

Kelvin…HERE is the thread I promised to link to…It is a long one that meanders a bit but I think that you will find it quite interesting…

Peace
James

Thanks! I will check it out.

 

[kelvinf]

YES! And the Church needs more people like you!!! We need people to pray for married couples and those discerning their call to marriage. We also need Churches to speak out in defense of marriage and to offer tangible support for married couples - like date nights. . . and single people like us can show our support by offering free babysitting so couples can have time together. Yes! Yes! Yes! I love it - ultra-defender! You rock!!! God bless you for your commitment and desire!!!

Oh, merci! God bless you too!

Oh, I would TOTALLY agree. On the whole, it is my experience that the majority of American Catholics are extremely poorly Catechized and far more influenced by popular culture. We had to live thru an era of getting only “Jesus loves you” for religious education along with weird new “in the spirit of Vatican II” theology, music and interpretations. Geesh - it took us 40+ years to finally start using the translation of the Roman Missal that you’ve been using in Germany (and the rest of the world) all along!

I am familiar with the Mass in English and in Germany. I had always thougt that something was wrong with the German translation. It turned out to be with the English translation.

My impression is that seeking annulment isn’t the problem. It’s people (particularly in the States) seeking marriage without full comprehension of the obligations and responsibilities it entails. After all, teenagers can turn on the tv and see superstars who were married for 48 hours and divorced, programs where the parties just leave one another and it has a happy ending in 30 minutes, and self-help shows that stress personal fulfillment over unified love. We’re a mess here! It took 50 years to create this mess - hope it can get cleaned up in 1/2 that time!

This is true. It ultimately boils down to the fact that people are not aware of what marriage means and entails.

 

[kelvinf]

ON the subject of bias, I think my bias lies toward the other end of yours. Not that I favor more liberal annulments, but that I sort of “get my hackles up” when I read things that are critical of the system and of the tribunals. Even though this thread has not attacked the tribunals as such…I know my bias is in here and may even show.

You know, there is nothing wrong with being critical of the tribunal system. Annulment is allowed, so one can always stick to that. But as I said before, it is also allowed for the pope to resign. However, if popes resign all the time, one could be critical of the system. Others might simply say, well, it’s allowed.

My interest lies less in complaining about the number of annulments and more in determining root causes and seeking solutions to these. That way the number of annulments just naturally drop.

Peace
James

Some have provided figures about the number of annulments the Roman Rota overturns. I don’t have a source to this but I definitely would be concerned if the figures are true. For me, it would mean that something is wrong somewhere–the system likely being abused.

So for me, it is legitimate to be concerned about the numbers. It could reflect the number of folks who aren’t well catechised but it could also indicate a problem with the system. I am just saying.

 

[kelvinf]

I think you are misunderstanding the nature of marriage as a covenant and as a sacrament. Lets take this example…

A man who was addicted to drugs and porn got a girl pregnant. He was scared, but wanted to “Do the right thing” and married her. He thought he loved her and intended to stay married to her for his whole life, and tried his best to do so.

But the man did not know what self-sacrificial love, real love was. A marriage of putting oneself last and putting the other first was not possible for him even if he understood it because his addiction to drugs and porn made it impossible to do anything but live for himself, to satisfy “self” rather than “other”.

So this man steps to the altar and says, “I do.” But wait a minute… His “I do” carries no weight because he can’t say that in freedom. Covenants create family bonds. Marriage is a covenant. The man could not freely enter that covenant. The man was scared, didn’t understand what he was doing and couldn’t live out the demands of the covenant relationship even if he had understood what it meant. The covenant never took effect. God himself would not honor such a covenant. You have to understand what you are getting into, enter into it freely and you have to be able to live it out. This man was not able to do those things and therefor there was no sacrament. It never happened.

Do we have a list of sins and faults that automatically incapacitate someone from exchanging consent freely? A good example that was given by Suslar was drunkness while taking the vows.

Porn unfortunately is a problem that has affected lots of marriages. Porn has destroyed some marriages. Many marriages have struggled with this and have found healing. I know a Catholic speaker who helps people dealing with porn. He was a porn addict before his marriage and found healing after his marriage. According to you, his “I do” carries no wait?

You can be an ultra defender of the bond if you want but the Church is the voice of Christ.

**For you to come on this website and tell people who have anullments that their anullments are BS is to speak counter to the voice of Christ. You should be ashamed of yourself.
**

-Tim-

You are overreacting. You are being too sensitive. I haven’t told anyone that their annulment is bs. And the poster who made reference to “bs” was saying that, that is what his friend thinks. Please read and heed or shoo!

I am not ashamed of anything I have said here. If you believe that the Church has the power to grant annulments, if you believe that the Church fully and rightly exercised her power in your case, then why do you seemed worried about my opinion?

I haven’t come across cases of drug use but maybe there are probably people who have had their marriages annulled because of porn and stuff like that but there are also those who have dealt with the problem. My view is that, I would encourage the couples to deal with the problem because it’s exactly what others have done and saved their marriages. If you don’t agree, fine. But I am not at all ashamed of my stance.

 

[JRKH]

Ok that does it one of my closest friends won’t get married in the church because both of his parents who where swingers got Annulments and are remarried and he thinks it’s bs

This is so sad. It points up the need for people to live the faith in Truth and consistency. Others, especially children are watching.
Another thing it points out is the danger of making one’s own faith dependent onthe action(s) of others.
Jesus, in Mt 23:1-3 expresses the age old admonition to "do as they say - not as they do.
He was speaking of the Pharisees and how their teachings and actions did not coincide. It is just as applicable to all of us today.

Adam - You are a wonderful friend to this person. Pray for them and stay close to them.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

For those interested…The grounds for an annulment are (from here):

• Most annulments are based on canon 1095, psychological reasons. These include a wide range of factors. Some of them may be misrepresentation or fraud (concealing the truth about capacity or desire to have children for example, or about an preexisting marriage, drug addiction, felony convictions, sexual preference or having reached the age of consent)
• Refusal or inability to consummate the marriage (inability or refusal to have sex)
• Bigamy, incest (being married to someone else, or close relatives)
• Duress (being forced or coerced into marriage against one’s will or serious external pressure, for example a pregnancy)
• Mental incapacity (considered unable to understand the nature and expectations of marriage)
• Lack of knowledge or understanding of the full implications of marriage as a life-long commitment in faithfulness and love, with priority to spouse and children.
• Psychological inability to live the marriage commitment as described above.
• Illegal “Form of Marriage” (ceremony was not performed according to Catholic canon law)
• One/both partners was under the influence of drugs, or addicted to a chemical substance.

Peace
James

 

[kelvinf]

For example…Say a man gets married and within a year or two begins having affairs. This fact is evidence that the person may not have been mature enough or did not understand the exclusivity aspect of marriage. Therefore he was unable to contract a valid marriage.

I think this where we fundamentally have different opinions. Based on the example you have given, my brother wouldn’t have been able to contract a valid marriage. My advice was for them to deal with the problem and it worked.

This is the story in brief:

After my brother married, things immediately started falling apart. BTW, I personally wouldn’t have advised my sister-in-law to have married my bro but they had dated for a very, very long time and I knew nobody would have listened to me.

After they got married, during their first year, my bro became something else. When his wife became pregnant, things only got worse. He didn’t help her at all with the housework. There were some things she was struggling to do that I don’t see why a pregnant woman should be doing. She told me she was feeling pains doing all these things while she was struggling to complete her degree. My bro didn’t care. He started coming home very late at night. He was drinking and getting drunk. Wait a moment. Drinking? I was shocked when I heard this. Yes I knew my bro had issues but he didn’t drink. Drinking has never been his thing. This for me was very unusual. And of course he was cheating on her.

It continued to a point where he said, he was done with the marriage. Eh? Boy, this sent out massive shock waves. Everything he did and said was bringing shame to our family. This was very unusual. Family members and friends close to both of them had tried everything to no avail. I had mostly been focusing on supporting my sister-in-law. Ultimately, my mom and I decided to look into the situation more closely. We tried to answer the question why he had changed and was behaving like that.

It turned out that they had moved to a new area and my bro had made some new friends there. Young guys with money who were out to “enjoy life”. They made my bro to think that he was missing out: stuck with a pregnant girl while his friends were having fun with hotter girls out there.

His wife hinted my mother of one specific guy who seemed to be the ringleader and my mom went after this guy with full force while I went after my brother. He was 26 back then while I was just 22.

To cut the long story short, my brother returned to his wife like the prodigal son. Now they have 2 kids and counting and are happy couples.

I am sure some here would have told my sister-in-law to initiate the process. At the same time, others here would have told her what I believe: to deal with the marital problem.

 

[benjohnson]

Yes, sometimes,. I’ve not found any stats showing Catholics divorce at same rate as Protestants.

They’re about the same… but thankfully for both Catholics and Protestants regular church attendance is strongly correlated with better marriage happiness and survival.

barna.org/barna-update/article/15-familykids/42-new-marriage-and-divorce-statistics-released

 

[JRKH]

You know, there is nothing wrong with being critical of the tribunal system. Annulment is allowed, so one can always stick to that. But as I said before, it is also allowed for the pope to resign. However, if popes resign all the time, one could be critical of the system. Others might simply say, well, it’s allowed.

I think that comparing annulments to papal resignation doesn’t really work well but OK…whatever…

You say that there is nothing wrong with being critical of the tribunal system…
If a person is knowledgeable about the system then I agree being critical of it for the purpose of improvement is a good thing. However, if a person is NOT knowledgeable of the system then their criticism - especially if publicly expressed - can be very harmful.
So - as with most things - it is important that we become as well informed as we can on a given subject before we begin offering (public) criticism.

To this end, I prefer discussions that start out with questions that seek understanding.

Some have provided figures about the number of annulments the Roman Rota overturns. I don’t have a source to this but I definitely would be concerned if the figures are true. For me, it would mean that something is wrong somewhere–the system likely being abused.

So for me, it is legitimate to be concerned about the numbers. It could reflect the number of folks who aren’t well catechised but it could also indicate a problem with the system. I am just saying.

Yes I have heard these things too…I believe that we got into this in the linked thread.
The numbers that people toss around are generally in isolation. Without a comprehensive set of data they mean nothing.
For example…A person says this…“it’s awful that 90% of annulments are granted”…
Sounds pretty bad doesn’t it. Yet a percentage is a basically useless number. It tells us little unless we have the raw numbers to give it meaning. 9 out of 10 is just as much 90% as 900 out of 1000.
Likewise the percentage of annulments granted out of the number applied for is also skewed because this number does not take into account all of the people who inquire but never apply because, after being interviewed by their priest, they are told they don’t have a case. If you know you are going to lose…you don’t file the paperwork…and if you don’t file the paperwork, it’s not included in the statistics.
A third matter that tends to skew the numbers is that a fair percentage of annulments granted are related to what are called “lack of form”. These take on different types…but they all fall under the general category of “lack of form” = no Sacramental marriage existed.
Likewise with the number of cases appealed to the rota and overturned. Only the most difficult cases - and the ones with the best chance of BEING overturned - are going to be sent. It’s not surprising that this would be a high percentage.

So - if one wishes to be critical - and legitimately so - then one should be balanced in their criticism. When one is presented with numbers, especially percentages, in isolation, ask questions about these numbers. What do they really represent? Is there sufficient detail to draw meaningful conclusions? If there is, then what is the true underlying cause - and how best can it be fixed?

Now please understand that I am not trying to downplay the idea that there are problems…but just what the problems are, where it is, and what to do about them is best served by a well ordered and comprehensive critique of the real numbers and the actual causes.

Finally - a comment/example that speaks to what might be both my strength and my bias.
Having worked in Quality Control for many years…I did a lot of inspection. If I found something wrong, there was a tendency for some people to get mad at me for the problem.
Yet I did not create the problem. I only made the measurements, checked them against the requirements and reported the results. So - why did people think that I was the problem??? Why were they mad at me???

Because of this background, It is perhaps a part of my nature to stick up for those who are “inspecting” things and reporting results and that includes marriage tribunals. I want to be sure that these people are being thought of and treated fairly. They do a difficult job. They are overworked, often understaffed and are certainly not getting rich by doing this work. They are not responsible for the catechesis of the young or for the marriage preparation ministry of a given parish. All they see is what is presented to them and all they can do is to act on the information provided - case by case - in the best way they know how.
Yet - for all of this it can often seem that it is the “tribunal system” that is held up for ridicule and criticism…
I’m not saying that you are ridiculing them, Kelvin, I’m just speaking my mind so that perhaps we can all see that there is more involved in this - and while the tribunals may share some of the burden - there are deep issues that need to be dealt with at the front end - before the wedding…even before the beginning of courtship.

Peace
James

 

[polki]

Annullments only really come into play if someone wants to get married (or remarried) in the Catholic Church. When people on here or other forums talk about their marital problems and ask “should I seek an annullment?” they are really asking “should I leave the marriage and get divorced?” because they “can’t take it anymore”. Maybe it’s just too hard for some people to come out and accept that this is what they are really contemplating. So they figure if they can reason that their marriage wasn’t valid in the first place, then they can somehow “justify” the divorce. I am only speculating of course, but a lot of people really don’t understand the divorce/annullment process and, honestly, I hope they never have to.

As other posters said, you need to be divorced first before you can even get the annullment paperwork. Anyone on here or anywhere else who gives the advice that they don’t have a sacramental marriage is giving really bad advice. Only the Tribunal can determine if you have a sacramental marriage. Not even a priest can tell you whether or not your marriage is sacramentally valid. ALL marriages are considered valid until the Tribunal determines otherwise and should be treated as such. You won’t know until you’ve gone through divorce court first!

Annullments are, in a way, keeping people in the Church, by giving them a “second chance”. If they married outside the Church and got divorced, they can seek an annullment to remarry in the Church. (That is GOOD. More Church marriages!) If a divorced Catholic wants to remarry in the Church, they would have to seek an annullment as well. Again, these folks want to stay in the Church. That is a GOOD thing. The “divorce” in the first place is the bad thing. So what bothers me more than annullments is when people post their marital problems and Catholics respond with “Leave him/her. Take the kids. You shouldn’t put up with that. Hire a lawyer.” And then they start talking about divorce. If they want to offer advice, they should offer ways to help save the marriage.

Marriages can succeed and be “fixed” when BOTH parties want to stay together. Not everyone “gets” that. In the examples in this thread, both the husband and wife wanted, at some level, to stay together, even though one may have been the one giving 99% most of the time. Once one spouse leaves no room for discussion, you’d be surprised how little the influence the other spouse has in “saving” their marriage, in spite of all their attempts. If a spouse keeps getting advice to “leave” then eventually it begins to sound appealing.

I think we should show some compassion for divorced and annulled Catholics. It is a well-known problem in the US that poor Catechesis is the cause for much confusion about what is a sacramental marriage. This is starting to be addressed better though, I think. If Pre Cana classes went step by step through the divorce and annullment process, it would give engaged couples a lot to think about. The advice I would give engaged couples is that they both have the same definition of marriage, because there are many out there nowadays. There are many couples that file for divorce because one wants to live or continue to live a sacramental marriage, and the other does not.

 

[kelvinf]

I think that comparing annulments to papal resignation doesn’t really work well but OK…whatever…

You say that there is nothing wrong with being critical of the tribunal system…
If a person is knowledgeable about the system then I agree being critical of it for the purpose of improvement is a good thing. However, if a person is NOT knowledgeable of the system then their criticism - especially if publicly expressed - can be very harmful.
So - as with most things - it is important that we become as well informed as we can on a given subject before we begin offering (public) criticism.

Well it’s just an example. I could use another example. And my point is just that the numbers could be a call for concern. If the number of Catholics seeking dispensations to marry non-Catholics and the number of dispensations granted were very high, then there is reason to be concerned, I believe. So for me, if the number of people seeking annulments and the subsequent number of annulments granted are very high, then I did be concerned. It could entirely be a problem with marriage preparation but it could also be a problem with the tribunal system. It’s possible. We have had other serious problems in the Catholic Church before. (I don’t want to bring up an example so that you shouldn’t think I am equating it to annulments.) But I am just saying that there could be problems with the system too. It has happened before.

So - if one wishes to be critical - and legitimately so - then one should be balanced in their criticism. When one is presented with numbers, especially percentages, in isolation, ask questions about these numbers. What do they really represent? Is there sufficient detail to draw meaningful conclusions? If there is, then what is the true underlying cause - and how best can it be fixed?

Now please understand that I am not trying to downplay the idea that there are problems…but just what the problems are, where it is, and what to do about them is best served by a well ordered and comprehensive critique of the real numbers and the actual causes.

Finally - a comment/example that speaks to what might be both my strength and my bias.
Having worked in Quality Control for many years…I did a lot of inspection. If I found something wrong, there was a tendency for some people to get mad at me for the problem.
Yet I did not create the problem. I only made the measurements, checked them against the requirements and reported the results. So - why did people think that I was the problem??? Why were they mad at me???

Because of this background, It is perhaps a part of my nature to stick up for those who are “inspecting” things and reporting results and that includes marriage tribunals. I want to be sure that these people are being thought of and treated fairly. They do a difficult job. They are overworked, often understaffed and are certainly not getting rich by doing this work. They are not responsible for the catechesis of the young or for the marriage preparation ministry of a given parish. All they see is what is presented to them and all they can do is to act on the information provided - case by case - in the best way they know how.
Yet - for all of this it can often seem that it is the “tribunal system” that is held up for ridicule and criticism…
I’m not saying that you are ridiculing them, Kelvin, I’m just speaking my mind so that perhaps we can all see that there is more involved in this - and while the tribunals may share some of the burden - there are deep issues that need to be dealt with at the front end - before the wedding…even before the beginning of courtship.

Peace
James

I get what you are saying. I acknowledge the tribunal system. My major concern is not with the system per se but with the motive behind making us of the system. You say the tribunals are burden/understaffed which I could interpret as they processing more requests than they would have imagined. I am just saying.

You make a good case re Quality Control at the level of the tribunal system. I agree. But don’t you think I am also doing some “inspection” not at the level of the tribunal system but at the level of Catholic marriages? I have done some inspection (and some are mad at me ) and come to the conclusion that the focus really should be on dealing with marital problems; experiencing the “for worse” part of marriage. That’s what marriage entails.

 

[kelvinf]

Was the requirement to first get a civil divorce instituted by the local bishops or is it a universal Catholic Church teaching? I am asking because I don’t see how this would be possible in countries where there is no divorce or where divorce is illegal like in the Philippines.