Anullments really bother me

[Suslar]

I am sure some here would have told my sister-in-law to initiate the process. At the same time, others here would have told her what I believe: to deal with the marital problem.

Glad the story has a happy ending! I LOVE happy endings!
I would have pounced on your brother to get him to man up to his responsibilities AND I would have prayed with and counseled your SIL to fight for the marriage. Marital problems can often be resolved.

However, if they were already legally divorced by the court system, then yes, I would encourage them to seek annulment. Not necessarily to remarry, but to find closure and peace.

 

[JRKH]

Well it’s just an example. I could use another example. And my point is just that the numbers could be a call for concern. If the number of Catholics seeking dispensations to marry non-Catholics and the number of dispensations granted were very high, then there is reason to be concerned, I believe. So for me, if the number of people seeking annulments and the subsequent number of annulments granted are very high, then I did be concerned. It could entirely be a problem with marriage preparation but it could also be a problem with the tribunal system. It’s possible. We have had other serious problems in the Catholic Church before. (I don’t want to bring up an example so that you shouldn’t think I am equating it to annulments.) But I am just saying that there could be problems with the system too. It has happened before.

Fair enough

I get what you are saying. I acknowledge the tribunal system. My major concern is not with the system per se but with the motive behind making us of the system. You say the tribunals are burden/understaffed which I could interpret as they processing more requests than they would have imagined. I am just saying.

Agreed, but again - standard “root cause analysis” must ask the question why are there so many requests. Based on the various (though not comprehensive) things I have learned there are several possibilities and some of these might even be interconnected with one exacerbating another.

You make a good case re Quality Control at the level of the tribunal system. I agree. But don’t you think I am also doing some “inspection” not at the level of the tribunal system but at the level of Catholic marriages? I have done some inspection (and some are mad at me ) and come to the conclusion that the focus really should be on dealing with marital problems; experiencing the “for worse” part of marriage. That’s what marriage entails.

I’m sorry but no you are not doing an inspection. What you are doing is reporting observations. If you were doing an inspection, or maybe an “audit” of the output of the process and system, you would be looking at specific data, measured against specific standards and criteria. You would be able to assemble and report clear conclusions based on and backed by the analysis of said data.
Furthermore - a person who performs inspections, or more accurately for this case performs audits, needs to be familiar with the process they are auditing. If possible they try to witness the process in action as well as examining the (name removed by moderator)uts and outputs to see that they meet the established criteria.

What you are doing is making observations. I too am making observations
We are discussing those observations. Without good and reliable data…we can do no more than that.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Was the requirement to first get a civil divorce instituted by the local bishops or is it a universal Catholic Church teaching? I am asking because I don’t see how this would be possible in countries where there is no divorce or where divorce is illegal like in the Philippines.

I am not sure how the system took it’s current shape here. Obviously the system varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction…All building off of the requirements of Canon Law.
So there is a combination of Universal requirements coupled with regional (national?) methodologies.

Peace
James

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

Was the requirement to first get a civil divorce instituted by the local bishops or is it a universal Catholic Church teaching? I am asking because I don’t see how this would be possible in countries where there is no divorce or where divorce is illegal like in the Philippines.

I’m not expert on the matter, but local laws play into what is required for marriage and/or divorce/annulment.

I remember someone posting about a case (can’t remember if it was the poster or the poster’s family member) of annulment in the Philippines. The poster gave all the details, which I do not remember, other than it took a very long time.

 

[Chatter163]

Was the requirement to first get a civil divorce instituted by the local bishops or is it a universal Catholic Church teaching? I am asking because I don’t see how this would be possible in countries where there is no divorce or where divorce is illegal like in the Philippines.

In the United States, clergy of any religious denomination have the legal right to perform marriages, and said marriage rites are recognized by the state as the civil ceremony, as well. In other words, it is not necessary, as it is in many countries, for the couple to have two ceremonies, one Catholic and one civil. This is a practice that we inherited from England, though the precise way in which we carry out the civil aspects are a little different.

When a couple wishes to get married, they first obtain a marriage license from the state in which they are to be married. This is, if you will, a permission from the state to marry. The couple makes a sworn legal statement that they are of legal age, legal residents or citizens, and are free to marry, without a prior bond in that or any other state or country. This process has become considerably streamlined in recent decades, depending on the state. The license is generally valid for anywhere between thirty and ninety days, and it is taken to the clergyman who presides over the marriage ceremony. IME, the license is generally given to the priest or deacon the day of the wedding, or at the rehearsal a day or two before. He signs his section of the license, listing the date and place of the wedding, and sends it back to the county court. Within a few weeks, the couple receives an official copy of the license, including the clergyman’s signed portion, and the license has been stamped with the county court’s official seal, indicating that the wedding as listed is now a matter of civil, legal and public record.

Since the Church’s clergy, as well as other legally registered ministers, has been given the right to conduct state-recognized weddings, the Church in this country requires that a civil divorce already be a matter of record before it will even review an anullment case. This is done to prevent a situation where a diocesan tribunal grants an ecclesiastical decree of nullity for a marriage that legally still exists in the civil realm. Doing so could leave the diocese open to a lawsuit for alienation of affection, since it would create a situation where the Church declares a situation that is at odds with the civil law.

 

[kelvinf]

In the United States, clergy of any religious denomination have the legal right to perform marriages, and said marriage rites are recognized by the state as the civil ceremony, as well. In other words, it is not necessary, as it is in many countries, for the couple to have two ceremonies, one Catholic and one civil. This is a practice that we inherited from England, though the precise way in which we carry out the civil aspects are a little different.

When a couple wishes to get married, they first obtain a marriage license from the state in which they are to be married. This is, if you will, a permission from the state to marry. The couple makes a sworn legal statement that they are of legal age, legal residents or citizens, and are free to marry, without a prior bond in that or any other state or country. This process has become considerably streamlined in recent decades, depending on the state. The license is generally valid for anywhere between thirty and ninety days, and it is taken to the clergyman who presides over the marriage ceremony. IME, the license is generally given to the priest or deacon the day of the wedding, or at the rehearsal a day or two before. He signs his section of the license, listing the date and place of the wedding, and sends it back to the county court. Within a few weeks, the couple receives an official copy of the license, including the clergyman’s signed portion, and the license has been stamped with the county court’s official seal, indicating that the wedding as listed is now a matter of civil, legal and public record.

Since the Church’s clergy, as well as other legally registered ministers, has been given the right to conduct state-recognized weddings, the Church in this country requires that a civil divorce already be a matter of record before it will even review an anullment case. This is done to prevent a situation where a diocesan tribunal grants an ecclesiastical decree of nullity for a marriage that legally still exists in the civil realm. Doing so could leave the diocese open to a lawsuit for alienation of affection, since it would create a situation where the Church declares a situation that is at odds with the civil law.

Thanks for explaining the reasoning behind the civil divorce.

 

[kelvinf]

What happens when the tribunal upholds the validity of the marriage? Does that undo the civil divorce?

 

[JRKH]

What happens when the tribunal upholds the validity of the marriage? Does that undo the civil divorce?

No

Blessed Easter
Peace
James

 

[WingsOfEagles]

People should do everything they can to stay in their marriages, but I think there is good reason for the Church to allow annulments in some cases. For example, a devout Catholic marries someone believing that they know exactly what they are doing. Unfortunately, what they don’t know is that the person they are marrying is already having an affair. There are other instances too where one spouse could be fully honest while another has a hidden secret that nullifies the marriage. There are also cases where the children have devout Catholic parents who force them into a marriage because the young girl is pregnant. “Shotgun” wedding can’t be considered a valid marriage that the two young people are held to the rest of their lives.