Any canon lawyers out there?

[roxane_gallaher]

Need answers concerning son’s upcoming marriage at a private, independent chapel (tridetine) without permission from the bishop. Is marriage valid or not?
Is marriage sacramental or not?
Can parents/family faithful to Rome attend wedding?
If invalid or nonsacramental what would it take to do it right?
The bride-to-be wants to get married in/with a traditional mass and bishop is not open to traditional masses said in his diocese.

Please refer to Code of Canon Law if you can. We would appreciate your answers.
Thank you.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

roxane gallaher:

Need answers concerning son’s upcoming marriage at a private, independent chapel (tridetine) without permission from the bishop. Is marriage valid or not?
Is marriage sacramental or not?
Can parents/family faithful to Rome attend wedding?
If invalid or nonsacramental what would it take to do it right?
The bride-to-be wants to get married in/with a traditional mass and bishop is not open to traditional masses said in his diocese.

Please refer to Code of Canon Law if you can. We would appreciate your answers.
Thank you.

Is marriage valid or not?

Is he Catholic? Then NO!

Is marriage sacramental or not?

If it’s not valid it’s not Sacramental it’s actually a sacrilege if intentionally done.

Can parents/family faithful to Rome attend wedding?

That is a personal decision.

If invalid or nonsacramental what would it take to do it right?

You son is under the Jurisdiction of his pastor and his Bishop. He cannot attempt solemn Marriage vows outside of Church Law.
That Law says that he must meet the marriage preparation requirements established by the Bishop, Marry in the parish church of either Catholic party or obtain permission of the Bishop for another place. The priest is representing the Church in witnessing the Marriage in effect also the Bishop in who’s diocese it takes place. He must be designated to do so by the Bishop.
A priest is not free to celebrate some Sacraments when or where he wants and he is not free to celebrate Sacraments with someone when he is not their pastor.

The bride-to-be wants to get married in/with a traditional mass and bishop is not open to traditional masses said in his diocese.

When what the bride and Bishop want are two diferent things regarding the Sacraments guess who wins?

Look in book four of the code at the canons on Marriage.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

roxane gallaher:

Need answers concerning son’s upcoming marriage at a private, independent chapel (tridetine) without permission from the bishop. Is marriage valid or not?
Is marriage sacramental or not?
Can parents/family faithful to Rome attend wedding?
If invalid or nonsacramental what would it take to do it right?
The bride-to-be wants to get married in/with a traditional mass and bishop is not open to traditional masses said in his diocese.

Please refer to Code of Canon Law if you can. We would appreciate your answers.
Thank you.

This smacks of schismatic. Am I wrong?

Does this “chapel” have an Indult to do the Tridentine Mass? Is this parish/chapel in communion with Rome or are they outside of that, such as SSPX or other?

There is a “Catholic” Church near my home that advertises it has the “Pre-Vatican 2” Mass and calls it Tridentine. There is only one problem… as far as the Archdiocese of Detroit is concerned this parish doesn’t exist. They are not in communion with Rome. They went off on their own, were disobedient, then in the greatest act of disobedience went into schism. But unsuspecting people think it is still a true Catholic Church.

If it is not in communion with Rome, all the more that no Catholic shoudl be entertaining the idea of getting married there.

If the bride wants a traditional Mass, then seek out a traditional parish that is in communion with Rome. Seek the permission, otherwise, I’d be getting married in bride or groom’s home parish. In fact, that is where they truly should be getting married. IF they like traditional Catholic parishes, they need to join one and support it - with their presence and their weekly tithing. This is what I did because I couldn’t stand contemporary Masses.

However, if the bride is doing this just to get nice pictures (very common), then she needs to re-evaluate altogether why she wants it in a traditional parish. To my mind, it is the wrong reason to be doing so. If she truly values traditional Catholicism, then she should join a traditional parish. People commute very long distances for my traditional parish,which is in full communion with Rome.

 

[otm]

There is also a common misunderstanding that the marriage should necessarily take place during a nupptual Mass. That is generally the norm, but not a requirement.

If the bride is insisiting that it take place in what, from the OP seems to be soem form of schismatic church, then what is needed is to get to the bottom of “why?”

Does she understand the Sacrament, or as the second poster suggested, is this a “photo op”?

Assuming for the moment that she is a traditionalist and that the choice of Mass is based on either a greater attraction to the Tridentine rite, or a rejection of the pauline rite, does your son agree with her? And if not, does he fully understand what he may be getting into? this issue can run quite deep.

Assuming for the moment that she is simply a traditionalist who is more attracted to the Tridentine rite, unless she is into a big wedding, why not have a simple exchange of vows in front of her pastor, and go to a more traditional Mass on their honeymoon?

I get the feeling that rules are not particularly important here, as having her wedding at the chapel would fly in the face of a number of rules she needs to comply with to be a member of the Catholic Church.

 

[she_he]

Ok i am not sure what this all means but I am gathering this is an older style type wedding, if that is the case instead of assuming she wants a “photo op”

maybe she wants to follow up in a family type tradition, you know the get married like mom and the grandparents type thing.
traditions in a family can run deep as well…esspecially when it comes to weddings…I know people who have been married in "great great Grandmas dress that has been passed down for the last century or three,and using the same ring as well…

sorry my normal useless 2 cents I always try to assume innocent till proven other…
John

 

[bear06]

I believe the below are the ones for which you are looking. The short version is that the local ordinary must grant the SSPX priest the faculties to officiate marriages. Because of the SSPX is in schism, there are very few, if any bishops that grant faculties to these priests. SSPX will try and argue that they do have faculties via one way or another. They do not unless the local bishop gives faculties to them. It’s also important to know that their confessions are invalid (except for in case of death) for the same reason.

Canon 1108

1. Only those marriages are valid which are contracted in the presence of the local ordinary or the pastor, or a priest or deacon delegated by either of them, who assist, and in the presence of two witnesses, according to the rules expressed in the following canons, with due regard for the exceptions mentioned in cann. 144, 1112, part 1, 1116 and 1127, parts 2 and 3.
2. The one assisting at a marriage is understood to be only that person who, present at the ceremony, asks for the contractants’ manifestation of consent and receives it in the name of the Church.

Canon 1109
Unless through a sentence or decree they have been excommunicated, interdicted or suspended from office or declared such, in virtue of their office the local ordinary and the pastor validly assist within the confines of their territory at the marriages of their subjects as well as of non-subjects provided one of the contractants is of the Latin rite.

Canon 1110
In virtue of their office and within the limits of their jurisdiction an ordinary and a personal pastor validly assist only at marriages involving at least one of their subjects.

Canon 1111

1. As long as they validly hold office, the local ordinary and the pastor (parochus) can delegate to priests and deacons the faculty, even a general one, to assist at marriages within the limits of their territory.
2. To be valid the delegation of the faculty to assist at marriages must be given expressly to specified persons; if it is a question of a special delegation, it is to be granted for a specific marriage; however, if it is a question of a general delegation, it is to be granted in writing.

 

[cameron_lansing]

roxane gallaher:

Need answers concerning son’s upcoming marriage at a private, independent chapel…

We are all presuming at least one of these parties is Catholic, but more likely both. In that light others have answered the chief points of this inquiry correctly and adequately. (Roxanne, though I did PM you on this.)

In particular, Bear06 has correctly presented and interpreted the relevant canons. BrotherRich’s analysis is also correct. Even when both parties are baptized, if a marriage is not valid, it cannot be sacramental. The lack of a priest with faculties to assist would invalidate the marriage.

I do think another point mentioned by Bear06 merits a little expansion.

Be very wary of what anyone associated with this kind of chapel claims about the ability to witness a marriage validly without delegation. Such “independent” priests and those of the SSPX claim that they can by invoking some kind of extraordinary circumstances, and assert various reasons from the former or present canon law.

You would hear of terms like “ecclesia supplet” (the Church supplies the power of jurisdiction) or the use of canon 144 regarding common error in the present code. Or, you might hear mention of “the extraordinary form of marriage” in which it is claimed that canon 1116 applies which allows the couple to validly exchange marital vows without a qualified assistant (priest, deacon, and rarely an authorized lay person). By these means, the “independents” and SSPXers claim they can have valid marriages.

Their positions are not accepted by canon lawyers.

jimmyakin.org/2005/03/marriage_involv_2.html is a useful expose of some of those claims.

Getting permission for the actual place of such an attempted marriage though, is the least of concerns. It would be irrelevant to the question of validity, and that is the glaring problem.