Any Catholic ever been out debated by a Protestant?

[solarguy17]

Wall of text above me .

My point is mainly that because Catholics and protestants have different views on the Bible and Authority its hard to have real debate. Usually 1 or both parties get mad and the debate is over simply due to emotion.
This applies even with in protestants debating against each other. Or Muslims or Hindus, or ext debate.

The recent abdication by Pope Benedict led me to read most of the Wikipedia articles on the various conclaves and Papal selection information. And it is interesting reading, but sometimes as I was reading I was surprised the Catholic church survived, there are many articles discussing bribes, vetos, secular interference, etc when deciding the new Pope that just astonished me.

And one of the things I read, is that according to Catholic tradition a Pope can’t appoint his successor. But that Peter appointed the following 3 Bishops of Rome (not yet called Pope) to take over after his death.
And it made me wonder, if Peter is the person that has the power to bind and loose, and Catholic teaching is that Peter choose his successor, why does the current Pope not name a successor, even in secret revealed only upon death or resignation?
That was something not discussed in the wikipedia articles, why did people (leity and clergy) start electing the Bishop of Rome after the 4th had died?

 

[PRmerger]

Huh? The only offering we need was Christ’s sacrifice.

Exactly. That’s what the Mass is: our re-presentation of Christ’s sacrifice.

Were you under the impression that there was some other offering that was being given?

Well, to be clear, we all participate in this atoning sacrifice, so our offerings are presented at the Mass as well…

But it is only because of Christ’s sacrifice, given once for all, that we have the Mass.

 

[PRmerger]

Well, technically according to Catholic teaching the authority to “bind and loose” was given to Peter in Matt 19:16.

This is incorrect, solarguy. According to Catholic teaching the authority to bind and loose was given to the magisterium of the Catholic Church.

Of course that ignores fact that Matthew 18:18 says the same thing and is directed at all the disciples.

Yes. This is the function of the magisterium.

No, but all the Biblical examples mention the 1st day of the week, not sundown on the 7th.

I think you are unfamiliar with Jewish tradition regarding sundown. And how the ancient Christians, following in the tradition of their Jewish forebears, counted days and nights.

 

[PRmerger]

No…I am saying that God/Holy Spirit guided them to compile the books of the NT becuase HE knew that Catholism would be the major religion for at least a 1000 yrs and the best way to preserve the NT was through those men.

Setting aside this astonishing claim that you know why God did this…

you are indeed correct, and very Catholic, in saying that the Holy Spirit did guide “them” to compile the books of the NT.

The “them” were Catholic men. Catholic bishops to be exact. 400 years after the death of Christ. And subsequent years.

Does your church have bishops who have been ordained by bishops <snip 1600 years> who were ordained by these Catholic bishops? :nope:

No man is infallible, but God does use men to fullfill his will. (see Noah, Moses, Jonah, etc)

If no man is infallible, can you please tell me where Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul erred in the sacred texts they wrote?

And no I don’t submit to the authority of the Catholic church, the Magesterium, or even the church of Christ I attend. I submit to God’s authority and strive to follow His will as defined in His inspired Word.

Then are you saying that you came to the compilation of the 27 books of the New Testament of your own authority? You discerned that these books are theopneustos on your own?

Ok, then attending Mass after 4:00PM on Sunday would not fulfill the requirement then by that logic because Monday will have already started.

This is where the binding and loosing part comes in. The Church has the authority to loose here.

 

[PRmerger]

And one of the things I read, is that according to Catholic tradition a Pope can’t appoint his successor. But that Peter appointed the following 3 Bishops of Rome (not yet called Pope) to take over after his death.
And it made me wonder, if Peter is the person that has the power to bind and loose, and Catholic teaching is that Peter choose his successor, why does the current Pope not name a successor, even in secret revealed only upon death or resignation?
That was something not discussed in the wikipedia articles, why did people (leity and clergy) start electing the Bishop of Rome after the 4th had died?

This is another example of the magisterium binding and loosing. They discerned that it was the will of God that popes not name their successors.

 

[Sheadad]

This is another example of the magisterium binding and loosing. They discerned that it was the will of God that popes not name their successors.

In response to the OP’s question, I have a feeling that any Catholic willing to spend some time with PRmerger’s blog will have a heck of a lot better chance.
:coffeeread:

 

[PRmerger]

In response to the OP’s question, I have a feeling that any Catholic willing to spend some time with PRmerger’s blog will have a heck of a lot better chance.
:coffeeread:

Awww…you’re so sweet.

 

[solarguy17]

This is incorrect, solarguy. According to Catholic teaching the authority to bind and loose was given to the magisterium of the Catholic Church.
Yes. This is the function of the magisterium.

Ahhh…the magisterium, a big reason why its hard to have a debate or discussion with a catholic if you aren’t.
Many conversations I have had with catholics have had the discussion end with, “well, the magisterium said or decided so”.
You aren’t discussing from the same perspective so thus its hard to have a fair discussion.

I think you are unfamiliar with Jewish tradition regarding sundown. And how the ancient Christians, following in the tradition of their Jewish forebears, counted days and nights.

I may be, but that doesn’t change the fact that there are 24 hours in a day but the magisterium permits the Sunday obligation for Mass to be fulfilled over the span of 32 hours. Unless of course you are will to admit that you should not have Mass that ends after 4PM on Sunday…

 

[solarguy17]

Setting aside this astonishing claim that you know why God did this…

you are indeed correct, and very Catholic, in saying that the Holy Spirit did guide “them” to compile the books of the NT.

The “them” were Catholic men. Catholic bishops to be exact. 400 years after the death of Christ. And subsequent years.

Does your church have bishops who have been ordained by bishops <snip 1600 years> who were ordained by these Catholic bishops? :nope:

My church currently has 4 bishops, over of course they meet the requirements specified for bishops in 1Tim 3
1:This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work.
2: A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach;
3: not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous;
4: one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence
5: (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?);
6: not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil.
7: Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Of course there are many titles the Bible gives to men in this positions, bishops, elders, overseers, shepards.

If no man is infallible, can you please tell me where Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul erred in the sacred texts they wrote?

The HS guided them to write what God intended, so in writing the books they did not err or sin. But doubtless they did at other times. Namely all of them abandoning Jesus when He was arrested.

Then are you saying that you came to the compilation of the 27 books of the New Testament of your own authority? You discerned that these books are theopneustos on your own?
PRmerger;10454677:

Nope, God determined the books and used men to make sure it was set the way He wanted.
PRmerger;10454677:

This is where the binding and loosing part comes in. The Church has the authority to loose here.

I see the binding and loosing abilities given to Peter and the disciples. Where does the Bible mention that ability moving on to more people or a group of people?

 

[solarguy17]

This is another example of the magisterium binding and loosing. They discerned that it was the will of God that popes not name their successors.

Did the magisterium also decree that the Cardinals could take bribes and ruling secular kings have veto powers? Because they was also permitted back in the early middle ages?

 

[PRmerger]

The HS guided them to write what God intended, so in writing the books they did not err or sin. But doubtless they did at other times.

Love that you said this, solarguy!



What you have said above is nothing more and nothing less than the Catholic understanding of what infallibility is!

So we are agreed, then, that men can indeed be infallible. Men have indeed been infallible.

 

[PRmerger]

Many conversations I have had with catholics have had the discussion end with, “well, the magisterium said or decided so”.

What conversations you’ve had with other Catholics, I cannot attest to.

I typically don’t end my discussions with non-Catholics with that phrase, because that’s not the Catholic paradigm. The Catholic paradigm is: fides quaerens intellectum. Faith seeking understanding.

Now, I will say that there is one topic that always ends with, “well, the magisterium said or decided so”, and it’s a topic that even you must agree is true. And that is the canon of the New Testament.

The ONLY way you know that the Gospel of Mark is theopneustos and the Shepherd of Hermas is not is, well, because “the magisterium said or decided so.”

You would not know it any other way.

 

[PRmerger]

I see the binding and loosing abilities given to Peter and the disciples. Where does the Bible mention that ability moving on to more people or a group of people?

Where does the Bible mention that it ought not be passed on?

 

[PRmerger]

I may be, but that doesn’t change the fact that there are 24 hours in a day but the magisterium permits the Sunday obligation for Mass to be fulfilled over the span of 32 hours.

Sure. What’s the problem with that? Is there a particular Bible verse that this contradicts? Is there a verse I’m unfamiliar with that says, “It is not permissible to worship the Lord on a Saturday evening or a Sunday evening as part of the Lord’s Day”?

Are you of the position: if it’s not in the Bible then it’s forbidden?

 

[pablope]

My church currently has 4 bishops, over of course they meet the requirements specified for bishops in 1Tim 3

Of course there are many titles the Bible gives to men in this positions, bishops, elders, overseers, shepards.

?

But how do they meet the example of St. Paul?

Galatians 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and remained with him fifteen days.
Galatians 2:2 I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain.

Paul had a direct revelation from Christ. Yet, from the two passages above, he goes to visit Cephas/Peter and submits himself to Peter. Gal 2: 2 states his purpose…to present his gospel/message to make sure it is in line with the Apostles and what they were handed down from Christ.

Now look at Acts 13:
1 Now in the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen (who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch) and Saul. 2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” 3 So after they had fasted and prayed, they placed their hands on them and sent them off.

Romans 10:
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”[g]

Who sent them?

from 1John 4…6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

Who tells them, who do they listened to…first to know if they indeed recognized the spirt of truth vs the spirit of falsehood?

 

[pablope]

My

I see the binding and loosing abilities given to Peter and the disciples. Where does the Bible mention that ability moving on to more people or a group of people?

Did the need to bind and loose stopped with the death of the Apostles and Paul? Or does the need continue to this day?

If it does…then who would do it? Anybody? Or only those with authority to do it?

 

[pablope]

No man is infallible, but God does use men to fullfill his will. (see Noah, Moses, Jonah, etc)

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by solarguy17

I see the binding and loosing abilities given to Peter and the disciples. Where does the Bible mention that ability moving on to more people or a group of people?

Well first show us where everything has to be said in the Bible? Why on earth would Jesus suspend everything with the Apostles?

 

[pablope]

Did the magisterium also decree that the Cardinals could take bribes and ruling secular kings have veto powers? Because they was also permitted back in the early middle ages?

Let me ask you instead…does your pastor…who is in effect, your magisterium…you do not just call him a magisterium…does he tell you to take bribes, to commit adultery, steal, etc…can he also give you veto powers?

Once you answer this question…then you can answer your own question above.

 

[SteveVH]

My church currently has 4 bishops, over of course they meet the requirements specified for bishops in 1Tim 3
1:This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work.
2: A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach;
3: not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous;
4: one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence
5: (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?);
6: not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil.
7: Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Just one thing that is missing here. One does not become a bishop in the Christian Church without being ordained by another bishop with succession back to the Apostles. There is absolutely no Scriptural basis for self-prclaimed bishops who have decided that they meet certain requirements. Authority is handed down, not assumed. And the only true authority was given by Christ himself to the Apostles which was then handed down to the bishops. So unless they can show Apostolic succession I think they’re out of luck.