Any Comments on this 'Scary' Sermon?

[nsper7]

Awhile back, someone on another thread linked to this sermon by St. Leonard of Port Maurice: On the Fewness of those Saved.

When I read it, I found it extremely scary. When I have discussed with Catholics I know, they disagree with the idea put forth by St. Leonard. What are the opinions of those here? (Please read the sermon obviously)

 

[Madaglan]

It’s important to keep in mind the audience and intent of the sermon. The sermon is not intended to make people despair, but to recognize the gravity of their sin, its consequences, and so repent and give themselves over to Christ. He is addressing the error that says all or most men are saved, even without repentance and pious living.

There are stories by the saints that show God’s great mercy to sinners–e.g. rescuing a suicide headed for Hell, through the intercessions of Mary, saving a cannibal from eternal torment, etc.

 

[Ceil-1]

Groan. Not this one again? This caused me problems, once. You know, even holy people are not infallible. This is not inspired Scripture, and, one is just as well off reading the Gospels and meditating on that.

 

[VociMike]

I couldn’t help it, I did some math.

33,000 per hour is almost 300 million per year. Assuming an average life span of only 10 years (assuming many infant deaths) gives us a world population of 3 billion. Now this was during the life of St. Bernard of Clervaux, a thousand years ago. There were not 3 billion humans on the planet 1000 years ago! Not even close! One estimate I found gives a total population of 300 million in 1000AD.

And let’s look at infant deaths. We know that many, many infants did not make it to adulthood. So a great percentage of deaths at that time would have been miscarriages, stillborn babies and infants who died young. Let us say that half of all deaths were such innocents. According to this sermon, all of these infants were condemned to hell, even those who were born alive and baptized! So according to this sermon, baptized babies who die before reaching the age of reason and the potential of sin still go to hell! Nonsense!

Whatever the purpose of this sermon was, those numbers go directly against the Catholic faith.

 

[dcrowmik]

Consider Matthew 22:1-14 paying particular attention to Jesus’ words in the last verse: “Many are called but few are chosen.”

 

[Doc2be]

I couldn’t help it, I did some math.

33,000 per hour is almost 300 million per year. Assuming an average life span of only 10 years (assuming many infant deaths) gives us a world population of 3 billion. Now this was during the life of St. Bernard of Clervaux, a thousand years ago. There were not 3 billion humans on the planet 1000 years ago! Not even close! One estimate I found gives a total population of 300 million in 1000AD.

And let’s look at infant deaths. We know that many, many infants did not make it to adulthood. So a great percentage of deaths at that time would have been miscarriages, stillborn babies and infants who died young. Let us say that half of all deaths were such innocents. According to this sermon, all of these infants were condemned to hell, even those who were born alive and baptized! So according to this sermon, baptized babies who die before reaching the age of reason and the potential of sin still go to hell! Nonsense!

Whatever the purpose of this sermon was, those numbers go directly against the Catholic faith.

Children and all of that going to Hell is nonsense even by this Homily if you actually read it…

Moreover, if to the number of Christian adults who die in the grace of God, you add the countless host of children who die after baptism and before reaching the age of reason, you will not be surprised that Saint John the Apostle, speaking of those who are saved, says, “I saw a great multitude which no man could number.”

He is talking about the number that is saved, and how they populate Heaven like the “stars of heaven.” He is saying that Heaven is highly populated, but not by most Catholics who die each day but by the few TRUE Catholics who live up to the highest degree of holiness and die with their Robe of Innocence on, over time.

I think this is true. How many Catholics profess the faith and support abortion? Contraception? Remarriage? Divorce? Stealing? The list can go on and on. I readily admit I am not perfect, and I wish I could say I have met more great and holy people in my life than the opposite, but I can’t. (note I am not saying whether they are saved or not, just an observation of works which are a measure of one’s faith).

I like this homily because it speaks to the point of complacency that seems to have taken hold of many Christians…all Christians.

I also like in the conclusion when he is talking about 1 saved out of the many or 1 damned out of the many. Either way you should strive to live a life that will either qualify you to be that 1 who is saved or not that 1 who is damned. Either way we should constantly live our lives in prayer, contemplation, penance and constantly strive to do God’s will in our lives.

it is a good wake up call, especially for many people in this day and age. Not nonsense, IMHO.

 

[jean8]

Awhile back, someone on another thread linked to this sermon by St. Leonard of Port Maurice: On the Fewness of those Saved.

When I read it, I found it extremely scary. When I have discussed with Catholics I know, they disagree with the idea put forth by St. Leonard. What are the opinions of those here? (Please read the sermon obviously)

nsper,
My first thought was, “I’m glad a loving God will judge me and not St. Leonard.”

As Christians we must all walk daily with the Lord. Pray, repent and be kind to everyone…
Some call this having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
We worship a loving, and forgiving God. God the Father sent His son to take our sins to the cross. Jesus died for sinners. Don’t forget that.
He loves you and me. Pray and repent, everyday. More often if you feel the need.
Have you read the Ten Commandments lately?

Jesus loves you,
jean

 

[wisdomseeker]

Awhile back, someone on another thread linked to this sermon by St. Leonard of Port Maurice: On the Fewness of those Saved.

When I read it, I found it extremely scary. When I have discussed with Catholics I know, they disagree with the idea put forth by St. Leonard. What are the opinions of those here? (Please read the sermon obviously)

i think this sermon applies to today state of men. just look around us and see what is going. if Jesus came today, how many of us would be left with Him? he is right when he says that the Mercy of God is toward those who fear and obey His Laws and just not to anyone. God is Mercyfull and also Justice. Jesus Himself says," I pray not for the world but for these only."

 

[VociMike]

Children and all of that going to Hell is nonsense even by this Homily if you actually read it…

The point remains that if only 5 of 33,000 were saved, that means that children both born and unborn, baptized and unbaptized, went to hell. And that contradicts the Catholic faith.

 

[Ceil-1]

This is why I am always skeptical of private revelation, at least the details of it. I try to focus on the message. I think people get caught up in the details, and lose the gist of the message. The guy is saying it is not easy to get to heaven. It seems to me, though, if one focuses on the Gospel and living it, rather than having fear of hell, they can reach a high level of holiness.

A Byzantine priest told me, that, people don’t go to hell so much for their sins as for their bitterness of heart, and lack of seeking and giving forgiveness. He criticizes the Western Church for just the above attitudes that lead people into coldness and sterility, and stifling the movement of the Holy Spirit. I am inclined to agree with him.

 

[Doc2be]

The point remains that if only 5 of 33,000 were saved, that means that children both born and unborn, baptized and unbaptized, went to hell. And that contradicts the Catholic faith.

I am sorry if I am just misunderstanding…but at which point in that sermon did he claim that those who the Church teaches are saved…are not damned to hell? Sure he gives number, take them literally or take them to mean that many people who assume their salvation are indeed not saved for complacency and the “libertine” ideals.

He never puts, baptized children, the unborn, those robed with innocence and salvation in the 33,000. At least not in the version that I read from the link posted above.

I agree we should not be motivated solely by a fear of Hell…it should be fear of God. To assume that He will back down on His own commandments is to assume that God is somewhat hypocritical. Yes he is merciful, but we must seek it first (hence, in the sermon he speaks about how it is ourselves who condemn ourselves to hell). God does not want us to go to Hell, we choose it of our own free will. There is no despair in that but great hope! If God is constantly trying to bring us back, there is not reason for despair, only joy and love which He shows us constantly. But, we should never forget that at any moment we can be lead away from Him, because He does not want mindless slaves but willing servants!

I think this mentality can only lead to sterility if it is poorly explained or if people refuse to accept the fact that they are sinful…I know I thought for a year or two that I could do no wrong, and I would have hated this sermon…Pride leads to a lack of obedience and sterility in faith…we believe that we know better than God, His chosen, His Saints, His Word. This sermon read in humility leads us to a greater sense of our own mortality and sinfulness and, as I am sure the point was, leads sinners to repent and take up their cross and follow Christ.

 

[agbasinger]

This is why I am always skeptical of private revelation, at least the details of it. I try to focus on the message. I think people get caught up in the details, and lose the gist of the message. The guy is saying it is not easy to get to heaven. It seems to me, though, if one focuses on the Gospel and living it, rather than having fear of hell, they can reach a high level of holiness.

A Byzantine priest told me, that, people don’t go to hell so much for their sins as for their bitterness of heart, and lack of seeking and giving forgiveness. He criticizes the Western Church for just the above attitudes that lead people into coldness and sterility, and stifling the movement of the Holy Spirit. I am inclined to agree with him.

“that I have sinned through my own fault,
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done,
and in what I have failed to do;”

We say it every Sunday. Often times we are unaware of our sins of omission.

 

[CentralFLJames]

I couldn’t help it, I did some math.

33,000 per hour is almost 300 million per year. Assuming an average life span of only 10 years (assuming many infant deaths) gives us a world population of 3 billion. Now this was during the life of St. Bernard of Clervaux, a thousand years ago. There were not 3 billion humans on the planet 1000 years ago! Not even close! One estimate I found gives a total population of 300 million in 1000AD.

And let’s look at infant deaths. We know that many, many infants did not make it to adulthood. So a great percentage of deaths at that time would have been miscarriages, stillborn babies and infants who died young. Let us say that half of all deaths were such innocents. According to this sermon, all of these infants were condemned to hell, even those who were born alive and baptized! So according to this sermon, baptized babies who die before reaching the age of reason and the potential of sin still go to hell! Nonsense!

Whatever the purpose of this sermon was, those numbers go directly against the Catholic faith.

Mike I must respectfully disagree. I don’t think the numbers contradict Catholic teaching in the least bit. That could have been a time of war or disease when those numbers were given. The black death was hugely destructive in Europe and many saw that as God’s wrath - why the flagelists movement was started. The Muslims were also butchering Christians like they were sin offerings to Allah at one time. I have not taken the time to correlate the dates to major events. But in some of the empire days of the Romans and Hannibal etc. there were 100,000s slain in single day combat melees - all bloody hand to hand. Human blood flowed like water in certain periods of earth history and life was cheap.

The sobering reality to me is seeing 2 major themes in the bible where God destroys most of humanity or the entire populations of cities save a few “just” men. We had the Flood, Sodom/Gomorrah. We also have Jesus’ solemn warning about entering by the narrow gate for few enter there-bye.

But on the other hand we also have more positive statements about Abraham’s descendants being as numerous as the grains of sand or the stars and God’s Mercy unfathomable. We also have the lessons of the saints - virtually all feared God as much or more as they loved Him.

I think the message is clear - don’t presume upon God being indifferent to sin and obey God. This topic area should scare the bejeezus out of any “just believe”/OSAS type Protestant. The common theme from Lucifer’s fall to all the commandments is OBEY God and judging from what I know I am tempted with daily and what I observe in society at large I really think very few “get it” how solemn Jesus was when He told us we must obey His commandments if we love Him. There seems to be a tension between fear and love that every person must reconcile.

James

 

[agbasinger]

Mike I must respectfully disagree. I don’t think the numbers contradict Catholic teaching in the least bit. That could have been a time of war or disease when those numbers were given. The black death was hugely destructive in Europe and many saw that as God’s wrath - why the flagelists movement was started. The Muslims were also butchering Christians like they were sin offerings to Allah at one time. I have not taken the time to correlate the dates to major events. But in some of the empire days of the Romans and Hannibal etc. there were 100,000s slain in single day combat melees - all bloody hand to hand. Human blood flowed like water in certain periods of earth history and life was cheap.

The sobering reality to me is seeing 2 major themes in the bible where God destroys most of humanity or the entire populations of cities save a few “just” men. We had the Flood, Sodom/Gomorrah. We also have Jesus’ solemn warning about entering by the narrow gate for few enter there-bye.

But on the other hand we also have more positive statements about Abraham’s descendants being as numerous as the grains of sand or the stars and God’s Mercy unfathomable. We also have the lessons of the saints - virtually all feared God as much or more as they loved Him.

I think the message is clear - don’t presume upon God being indifferent to sin and obey God. This topic area should scare the bejeezus out of any “just believe”/OSAS type Protestant. The common theme from Lucifer’s fall to all the commandments is OBEY God and judging from what I know I am tempted with daily and what I observe in society at large I really think very few “get it” how solemn Jesus was when He told us we must obey His commandments if we love Him. There seems to be a tension between fear and love that every person must reconcile.

James

We should approach our salvation with fear and trembling.

But…

God promised he would never destroy the Earth again.

And

Karl Barth has an interesting interpretation on the narrow gate in his Epistle to the Romans (protestant, I know). He sees Christ as the narrow gate and the elected one. Through him we are elected lest any man boast of being ‘born saved’.

 

[VociMike]

Mike I must respectfully disagree. I don’t think the numbers contradict Catholic teaching in the least bit.

Hi James,

The contradiction is in the fact that out of those 33,000, which must include some baptized babies, all of them went to hell. Out of 33,000, surely there must have been hundreds, perhaps thousands, of baptized babies and children who had not reached the age of reason. The Church teaches that they would go to heaven, not hell.

Further, even the unbaptized babies and children apparently all went to hell, even though they had no personal sin.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Hi James,

The contradiction is in the fact that out of those 33,000, which must include some baptized babies, all of them went to hell. Out of 33,000, surely there must have been hundreds, perhaps thousands, of baptized babies and children who had not reached the age of reason. The Church teaches that they would go to heaven, not hell.

Further, even the unbaptized babies and children apparently all went to hell, even though they had no personal sin.

maybe its not a literal revelation - perhaps the concept that was meant to be conveyed is the relative scale of those who attain salvation vs those who do not. Judging by The current complacent attitude in Christendom I see everywhere I go everyone imagines it the other way - most all get to heaven. THAT is NOT consistent with scripture nor with what the saints have revealed to us.

And as far as “extra Ecclesia nulla salus” goes I refuse to believe that Invincible Ignorance is the norm. So that means with 800 million Protestants - at MOST - the very MOST maybe 10%-20% are “invincibly ignorant” otherwise it makes ignorance MORE efficacious as baptism for salvation for the balance of the 5 billion people on the planet. So if my back of napkin calculations are in the ball park and we TRULY believe our own Catechism that one MUST be a member of The Church then that means that about 640,000,000 of the Protestants can’t qualify for invincible ignorance and are bound for hell. The current world death rates (Death Rate Clock) are about 6,390 per hour. Given current religious affiliations ratios and assuming at least 50% of Catholics “make it” and 20% of protestants and 20% of others then hell is being populated at about 4,200 - 4,700 per hour.

Unless Invincible Ignorance is The Norm and unless ignorance benefits a person more than baptism and full membership in the Catholic Church then those are “reasonable” rough estimate numbers.

James

 

[cranster]

I couldn’t help it, I did some math.

33,000 per hour is almost 300 million per year. Assuming an average life span of only 10 years (assuming many infant deaths) gives us a world population of 3 billion. Now this was during the life of St. Bernard of Clervaux, a thousand years ago. There were not 3 billion humans on the planet 1000 years ago! Not even close! One estimate I found gives a total population of 300 million in 1000AD.

And let’s look at infant deaths. We know that many, many infants did not make it to adulthood. So a great percentage of deaths at that time would have been miscarriages, stillborn babies and infants who died young. Let us say that half of all deaths were such innocents. According to this sermon, all of these infants were condemned to hell, even those who were born alive and baptized! So according to this sermon, baptized babies who die before reaching the age of reason and the potential of sin still go to hell! Nonsense!

Whatever the purpose of this sermon was, those numbers go directly against the Catholic faith.

Mike where did you come up with 3 billion people in the year 1000? The current death rate per 1000 people is about 8.23. In ancient times through the middle ages it was about 40 per 1000. I don’t think St. Leonard’s figures were out of the realm of possibility, although it does seem a bit high. The thing about this sermon that bothers me the most, is It says that a loving God created humanity knowing that almost all of His creation is destined for eternal damnation and torment. Is His grace really not sufficient to bring more people to ever lasting life with Him than 5 out of 33000? That’s slightly more than 1/100th of 1%. It’s basically saying that 1/3 of the angels fell, but 99.99 percent of Humans will fall even with Christ’s redemption.JP2 said we should not despair, or even be anxious about the doctrine of hell.

I agree with James that there’s an awful lot of people that take salvation way too lightly. All you have to do is take a hard look at the gravity of what Jesus actually went through for us, to realize that he went through something horrific beyond comprehension so we could be with Him eternally. We really do have to respond to Him with the same gravity that He responded to the Father.

 

[Doc2be]

Mike where did you come up with 3 billion people in the year 1000? The current death rate per 1000 people is about 8.23. In ancient times through the middle ages it was about 40 per 1000. I don’t think St. Leonard’s figures were out of the realm of possibility, although it does seem a bit high. The thing about this sermon that bothers me the most, is It says that a loving God created humanity knowing that almost all of His creation is destined for eternal damnation and torment. Is His grace really not sufficient to bring more people to ever lasting life with Him than 5 out of 33000? That’s slightly more than 1/100th of 1%. It’s basically saying that 1/3 of the angels fell, but 99.99 percent of Humans will fall even with Christ’s redemption.JP2 said we should not despair, or even be anxious about the doctrine of hell.

One little comment about God’s grace. His grace and the grace earned for us through Christ’s passion is completely sufficient to save souls. But the catch is that we were given a free will. We can choose to take that grace and apply it in our lives and hearts or we can deny it. God gives, we reject. It is not God damning people, it is their own fault for refusing to truly live a life for Christ.

God created Adam and Eve and must have known that they would choose their own pride over Him. A loving God created mankind even though he knew we would reject him. God became man even though He knew we would kill Him. It seems, as if, God created us and truly wants 100% to be saved, but we don’t want 100% to be saved. That is a good message in this sermon. It is NOT God’s fault or doing…it is all our own. We need to start taking responsibility. That is how I see it.

 

[cranster]

One little comment about God’s grace. His grace and the grace earned for us through Christ’s passion is completely sufficient to save souls. But the catch is that we were given a free will. We can choose to take that grace and apply it in our lives and hearts or we can deny it. God gives, we reject. It is not God damning people, it is their own fault for refusing to truly live a life for Christ.

God created Adam and Eve and must have known that they would choose their own pride over Him. A loving God created mankind even though he knew we would reject him. God became man even though He knew we would kill Him. It seems, as if, God created us and truly wants 100% to be saved, but we don’t want 100% to be saved. That is a good message in this sermon. It is NOT God’s fault or doing…it is all our own. We need to start taking responsibility. That is how I see it.

What you’re saying is all true. I don’t disagree with any of it, but applying those numbers to today’s population out of the 6.6 billion people on the planet, only 660,000 are going to make it to heaven. Are you sure you are responding to God’s Grace completely enough to be counted in that number? It really requires that we have to live our life here as committed to Christ as a Saint Francis, Saint Pio, or Mother Theresa, to even have a remote chance of making it to Heaven. It requires a commitment equal to what Saint Leonard said about the guy who went out to the dessert in sackcloth and ash, fasting and praying for the rest of his life, and maybe this is the sobering, cold reality of what it really takes.

 

[Doc2be]

What you’re saying is all true. I don’t disagree with any of it, but applying those numbers to today’s population out of the 6.6 billion people on the planet, only 660,000 are going to make it to heaven. Are you sure you are responding to God’s Grace completely enough to be counted in that number? It really requires that we have to live our life here as committed to Christ as a Saint Francis, Saint Pio, or Mother Theresa, to even have a remote chance of making it to Heaven. It requires a commitment equal to what Saint Leonard said about the guy who went out to the dessert in sackcloth and ash, fasting and praying for the rest of his life, and maybe this is the sobering, cold reality of what it really takes.

Why should we be asked to do less? I am not saying that I am living up to the example of St. Pio or any of the saints, but what makes us so special that we do not need to live exemplary lives? I just think so many people assume they can not be saints…we are all called to be saints just many people refuse to take the steps to do just what the saints did. We are all called to live our faith heroically! Instead of debating about whether or not we will make it to heaven, we should just strive to live lives that will follow the examples of the saints.

I don’t know if those numbers were meant to be exact or maybe they were just a snap shot… a point in time. On that very day that many died and that many made it to heaven. I feel as if those numbers were not meant to be universally applied, just concrete examples…to put things into perspective. They were used to show his point that the complacency supported by the libertines leads one down a large easy road to Hell and not the narrow path to heaven.