Any converts from Eastern Orthodoxy?

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… and many of the worst offenders are Protestant converts who use the same arguments they did before. More than anything I see myself as giving Catholicism a fair hearing, and I think it deserves that.
Yeah, in my experience that’s all too common, because so many protestants are strongly anti-Catholic, and vice versa.

On the plus side, I think it is rare for converts from protestantism to Catholicism (or vice versa) to be strongly anti-Orthodox (at least, as strongly as what you’re talking about).
 
You definitely have your polemicists on each side of the Catholic-Orthodox dialogue. I recommend people stick to the scholars in each camp rather than the apologists, since the latter often have an axe to grind and don’t take the issues as seriously or know the material as well.

For Orthodox readings I recommend:

David Bentley Hart
Met. Kallistos Ware
Fr. John Behr
Met. Hilarion Alfeyev
 
You definitely have your polemicists on each side of the Catholic-Orthodox dialogue. I recommend people stick to the scholars in each camp rather than the apologists, since the latter often have an axe to grind and don’t take the issues as seriously or know the material as well.

For Orthodox readings I recommend:

David Bentley Hart
Met. Kallistos Ware
Fr. John Behr
Met. Hilarion Alfeyev
This is pretty good advice when it comes to studying other churches or religions in general.
 
What private revelations are you referring to?
Any, I would say the same regardless of which one of these Church’s we talked about. Someone having been touched by the Holy Spirit, as you know could happen in various ways here. My point is to speak to whichever priest of the parish you belong. Some of which are very good in this regard.

Your personal situation, prayers are with you. Difficult I know, I could relate. In some ways this touches all of us in the Church, friends and family. I think you went a long way to be an example. I attempt to do the same.
 
You definitely have your polemicists on each side of the Catholic-Orthodox dialogue. I recommend people stick to the scholars in each camp rather than the apologists, since the latter often have an axe to grind and don’t take the issues as seriously or know the material as well.

For Orthodox readings I recommend:

David Bentley Hart
Met. Kallistos Ware
Fr. John Behr
Met. Hilarion Alfeyev
I don’t believe all apologists have an axe to grind, i.e., I’ve read quite a few articles from Catholic Apologists and they didn’t strike me as being anti-Orthodox or anti-Protestant.

p.s. I read an article by David Bentley Hart on the website “Monks and Mermaids”. It was good. If you’d like to read it, here it is: The Myth of Schism

fatherdavidbirdosb.blogspot.ca/2012/05/myth-of-schism-by-david-bentley-hart.html

Have you heard of Fr. Laurent Cleenewerck? I also think this article written by an Eastern Orthodox is good too:

devinrose.heroicvirtuecreations.com/blog/2012/11/26/an-eastern-orthodox-christian-looks-west/comment-page-1/
 
I don’t believe all apologists have an axe to grind, i.e., I’ve read quite a few articles from Catholic Apologists and they didn’t strike me as being anti-Orthodox or anti-Protestant.

p.s. I read an article by David Bentley Hart on the website “Monks and Mermaids”. It was good. If you’d like to read it, here it is: The Myth of Schism

fatherdavidbirdosb.blogspot.ca/2012/05/myth-of-schism-by-david-bentley-hart.html
Hart’s treatment of Lossky in that article borders on the absurd. He quite grossly misrepresents Lossky as being vehemently anti-Western, when it is only a certain strain of Western though, the essentialism inherent to Neo-Scholasticism, which was the focus of Lossky’s criticism. It is, I think, quite inconceivable that Hart, who is smart enough to know that Western theology is not limited to Neo-Scholasticism, would make the error of misreading Lossky’s criticism of Neo-Scholasticism as a criticism of the entire theological output of the West in the past two thousand years, which puts him in the awkward position of either willfully misrepresenting Lossky or hastily criticizing Lossky’s theological output without having read it carefully.

The fact that Lossky keeps his criticism reserved for Thomism and Neo-Scholasticism in particular is mentioned by George E. Demacopoulos and Aristotle Papanikolaou, who in “Augustine and the Orthodox: ‘The West’ in the East” point out that Lossky’s reading of Augustine does not exploit the difference between Augustine’s conception of apophasis from the Aeropagite’s conception of apophasis in order to attack St. Augustine as the author of Western errors, but rather links St. Augustine to later strains of Western mysticism based upon the mysticism of Dionysius, thus distancing the saint from the later Schoolmen and Augustinians, whose reading of Dionysius he rejected. Similarly, Lossky in In the Image and Likeness of God remarks on the possibility of an Orthodox reading of St. Augustine’s triadology, noting that no such in depth study of De Trinitate had yet been undertaken.

Hart is simply not correct in his reading of Lossky as “anti-Western,” for while it is true that Lossky did not care for a certain strain of Western thinking which he regarded as erroneous (that is, Neo-Scholasticism), it is not true that Lossky therefore rejected the West in its entirety as a consequence of his rejection of Neo-Scholasticism.

Similarly, I find Hart’s charge that Lossky misrepresents Western thought to be laughable. Lossky went through the trouble to study Thomas with none other than Etienne Gilson, so it should be quite unthinkable that Lossky’s interpretations of Thomas would not have been guided by current schools of Thomism at that time (in fact, one has to wonder if he did not pick up his intense distaste for Scholasticism from Gilson himself, though he clearly disagreed with Gilson’s view that Thomas Aquinas provided the answer to the problems caused by Scholasticism). Frankly, I’m not even sure why Hart brings Lossky up at all. Had he kept the article to criticizing Romanides’ treatment of the West, I wouldn’t find it so objectionable. But for him to try and lump Lossky in together with Romanides is quite untenable, I think.
 
Well-reasoned and balanced response, as usual, Cavaradossi.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Hart’s treatment of Lossky in that article borders on the absurd. He quite grossly misrepresents Lossky as being vehemently anti-Western, when it is only a certain strain of Western though, the essentialism inherent to Neo-Scholasticism, which was the focus of Lossky’s criticism. It is, I think, quite inconceivable that Hart, who is smart enough to know that Western theology is not limited to Neo-Scholasticism, would make the error of misreading Lossky’s criticism of Neo-Scholasticism as a criticism of the entire theological output of the West in the past two thousand years, which puts him in the awkward position of either willfully misrepresenting Lossky or hastily criticizing Lossky’s theological output without having read it carefully.

The fact that Lossky keeps his criticism reserved for Thomism and Neo-Scholasticism in particular is mentioned by George E. Demacopoulos and Aristotle Papanikolaou, who in “Augustine and the Orthodox: ‘The West’ in the East” point out that Lossky’s reading of Augustine does not exploit the difference between Augustine’s conception of apophasis from the Aeropagite’s conception of apophasis in order to attack St. Augustine as the author of Western errors, but rather links St. Augustine to later strains of Western mysticism based upon the mysticism of Dionysius, thus distancing the saint from the later Schoolmen and Augustinians, whose reading of Dionysius he rejected. Similarly, Lossky in In the Image and Likeness of God remarks on the possibility of an Orthodox reading of St. Augustine’s triadology, noting that no such in depth study of De Trinitate had yet been undertaken.

Hart is simply not correct in his reading of Lossky as “anti-Western,” for while it is true that Lossky did not care for a certain strain of Western thinking which he regarded as erroneous (that is, Neo-Scholasticism), it is not true that Lossky therefore rejected the West in its entirety as a consequence of his rejection of Neo-Scholasticism.

Similarly, I find Hart’s charge that Lossky misrepresents Western thought to be laughable. Lossky went through the trouble to study Thomas with none other than Etienne Gilson, so it should be quite unthinkable that Lossky’s interpretations of Thomas would not have been guided by current schools of Thomism at that time (in fact, one has to wonder if he did not pick up his intense distaste for Scholasticism from Gilson himself, though he clearly disagreed with Gilson’s view that Thomas Aquinas provided the answer to the problems caused by Scholasticism). Frankly, I’m not even sure why Hart brings Lossky up at all. Had he kept the article to criticizing Romanides’ treatment of the West, I wouldn’t find it so objectionable. But for him to try and lump Lossky in together with Romanides is quite untenable, I think.
Well, I got more than I bargained for by posting that article, thanks for the clarifications. I have to say however that Hart seems to have reserved his harshest criticism towards Romanides, i.e., I don’t think he was lumping them per se in the same category. Perhaps I have to read the article again in light of what you’ve told me.

p.s. Would you suggest I read Lossky, i.e., I brought up Hart because truthseeker32 said he was someone we should read if we wished a greater understanding of Orthodoxy. Overall, I still like his article (even if I didn’t agree with every aspect of it and as you mentioned there are some flaws).
 
p.s. Would you suggest I read Lossky, i.e., I brought up Hart because truthseeker32 said he was someone we should read if we wished a greater understanding of Orthodoxy. Overall, I still like his article (even if I didn’t agree with every aspect of it and as you mentioned there are some flaws).
That depends. If you’re familiar in general with 19th Century Neo-Scholasticism and Neo-Platonism, then Lossky might be a worthwhile read. It’s rather hard to read otherwise.
 
Lossky is definitely not light reading! Thank you for posting the essay from Fr. Hart, it was fantastic. His vocabulary is humbling 🙂

I don’t believe that purgatory is a major obstacle to reunion. If the definition given in the Catechism of the Catholic Church is the dogma, then I have no objections. Note that there is no mention of temporal punishments there.
 
That depends. If you’re familiar in general with 19th Century Neo-Scholasticism and Neo-Platonism, then Lossky might be a worthwhile read. It’s rather hard to read otherwise.
No, not really, as I’m not totally sure what those terms mean! I have an understanding of scholasticism, but not concretely so, i.e., I would assume neo-scholasticism is a renewal of scholasticism but in a form slightly different than its predecessor.
 
Lossky is definitely not light reading! Thank you for posting the essay from Fr. Hart, it was fantastic. His vocabulary is humbling 🙂
Just a point of clarification, David Bentley Hart isn’t a presbyter, but an independent scholar.
 
Ah thank you! He articulated so many of the thoughts I’ve been having lately, it’s good to know I’m not alone.
 
Lossky is definitely not light reading! Thank you for posting the essay from Fr. Hart, it was fantastic. His vocabulary is humbling 🙂

I don’t believe that purgatory is a major obstacle to reunion. If the definition given in the Catechism of the Catholic Church is the dogma, then I have no objections. Note that there is no mention of temporal punishments there.
You’re welcome. 👍

p.s. It is our theology that differentiates us for the most part, not doctrines per se.
 
Hart’s treatment of Lossky in that article borders on the absurd. He quite grossly misrepresents Lossky as being vehemently anti-Western, when it is only a certain strain of Western though, the essentialism inherent to Neo-Scholasticism, which was the focus of Lossky’s criticism. It is, I think, quite inconceivable that Hart, who is smart enough to know that Western theology is not limited to Neo-Scholasticism, would make the error of misreading Lossky’s criticism of Neo-Scholasticism as a criticism of the entire theological output of the West in the past two thousand years, which puts him in the awkward position of either willfully misrepresenting Lossky or hastily criticizing Lossky’s theological output without having read it carefully.

The fact that Lossky keeps his criticism reserved for Thomism and Neo-Scholasticism in particular is mentioned by George E. Demacopoulos and Aristotle Papanikolaou, who in “Augustine and the Orthodox: ‘The West’ in the East” point out that Lossky’s reading of Augustine does not exploit the difference between Augustine’s conception of apophasis from the Aeropagite’s conception of apophasis in order to attack St. Augustine as the author of Western errors, but rather links St. Augustine to later strains of Western mysticism based upon the mysticism of Dionysius, thus distancing the saint from the later Schoolmen and Augustinians, whose reading of Dionysius he rejected. Similarly, Lossky in In the Image and Likeness of God remarks on the possibility of an Orthodox reading of St. Augustine’s triadology, noting that no such in depth study of De Trinitate had yet been undertaken.

Hart is simply not correct in his reading of Lossky as “anti-Western,” for while it is true that Lossky did not care for a certain strain of Western thinking which he regarded as erroneous (that is, Neo-Scholasticism), it is not true that Lossky therefore rejected the West in its entirety as a consequence of his rejection of Neo-Scholasticism.

Similarly, I find Hart’s charge that Lossky misrepresents Western thought to be laughable. Lossky went through the trouble to study Thomas with none other than Etienne Gilson, so it should be quite unthinkable that Lossky’s interpretations of Thomas would not have been guided by current schools of Thomism at that time (in fact, one has to wonder if he did not pick up his intense distaste for Scholasticism from Gilson himself, though he clearly disagreed with Gilson’s view that Thomas Aquinas provided the answer to the problems caused by Scholasticism). Frankly, I’m not even sure why Hart brings Lossky up at all. Had he kept the article to criticizing Romanides’ treatment of the West, I wouldn’t find it so objectionable. But for him to try and lump Lossky in together with Romanides is quite untenable, I think.
Setting the Lossky issue aside, what did you think of the rest of the article?

See, there is a pattern (and I am beginning to believe it to be intentional) wherein you read an article that is not to your liking, so you find the one or two things that are technically questionable, and you focus on those smaller issues to divert attention away from the entire rest of the article. Perhaps you think by nit-picking on lesser points, you can divert the discussion away from the majors. You did this before with both Mark Bonocore’s Timeline and Dave Armstrong’s listing of the large number of heretical Eastern Bishops.

The author’s PRIMARY point was that there really isn’t all that much that is separating East and West and that those differences could be overcome with a bit of attention EXCEPT for the fact that some Eastern polemicists DO NOT WANT any reconciliation with Rome.

So, I’m asking straight up: Do you, Cavaradossi, want to see a reconciliation and healing of the division that has separated East and West for a thousand years?

Yes or no?
 
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