Any Episcopalians in the house?

[Thorolfr]

Absolutely, some connect to their version of what they term ‘God’ according to the ‘prophetic’ voices of Joseph Smith or Mary Baker Eddy or L. Ron Hubbard, etc. Of course they and others like them would be wrong - objectively.

I connect to God quite well in my Lutheran church, better than in any other church I’ve ever been a member of and certainly better than I could ever do in the Catholic church. The reasons why the Catholic Church would not work for me are very similar to virgo’s: the stifling legalism, the “centuries of magisterial law upon magisterial law.” As Derek Wilson’s recent biography of Martin Luther points out (p. 76), “Yes, the doctrine of justification by faith was part of the vast corpus of orthodox Christian teaching but an unquiet soul like Luther’s had to seek it amidst all the complexities of medieval theology. It was one tree in a forest, obscured from view by the luxuriant scholastic growth all around it.” And of course in something like the Catholic Church with its forest of “luxuriant scholastic growth,” it is always claimed that only certain experts can understand all of this and ordinary believers must defer to the understanding and interpretations of those experts. I also strongly believe that some issues must be left to the individual consciences of each believer, not dictated by a Magisterium and that I should be able to read and interpret the Bible for myself and not have to bow to some other authority to tell me what it all means. But I also recognize that for many people the Catholic church is the perfect church for them to be in.

 

[Thorolfr]

Virgo-

This is a deeply personal decision for you, but I can’t help noting that you are planning on moving away from Catholicism and into the Episcopal Church just as the wheels are flying off of the Anglican/Episcopalian communion.

When you finally arrive, you may find that someone pulling out of the parking lot hands you a set of keys to a darkened building.

It’s not as if the Catholic Church itself is doing wonderfully itself everywhere in comparison to other denominations. As a recent Pew Research Center survey from last November found:

Latin America is home to more than 425 million Catholics – nearly 40% of the world’s total Catholic population – and the Roman Catholic Church now has a Latin American pope for the first time in its history. Yet identification with Catholicism has declined throughout the region, according to a major new Pew Research Center survey that examines religious affiliations, beliefs and practices in 18 countries and one U.S. territory (Puerto Rico) across Latin America and the Caribbean.

Historical data suggest that for most of the 20th century, from 1900 through the 1960s, at least 90% of Latin America’s population was Catholic (See History of Religious Change). Today, the Pew Research survey shows, 69% of adults across the region identify as Catholic. In nearly every country surveyed, the Catholic Church has experienced net losses from religious switching, as many Latin Americans have joined evangelical Protestant churches or rejected organized religion altogether. For example, roughly one-in-four Nicaraguans, one-in-five Brazilians and one-in-seven Venezuelans are former Catholics.

Overall, 84% of Latin American adults report that they were raised Catholic, 15 percentage points more than currently identify as Catholic. The pattern is reversed among Protestants and people who do not identify with any religion: While the Catholic Church has lost adherents through religious switching, both Protestant churches and the religiously unaffiliated population in the region have gained members. Just one-in-ten Latin Americans (9%) were raised in Protestant churches, but nearly one-in-five (19%) now describe themselves as Protestants. And while only 4% of Latin Americans were raised without a religious affiliation, twice as many (8%) are unaffiliated today.

Much of the movement away from Catholicism and toward Protestantism in Latin America has occurred in the span of a single lifetime. Indeed, in most of the countries surveyed, at least a third of current Protestants were raised in the Catholic Church, and half or more say they were baptized as Catholics. For example, nearly three-quarters of current Protestants in Colombia were raised Catholic, and 84% say they were baptized as Catholics.

pewforum.org/2014/11/13/religion-in-latin-america/

It seems to me that many churches are declining in many places and I find this to be sad. I hope that all of them can flourish and the people in them can flourish.

 

[virgo]

Thorolfr, I attended a Lutheran service today just to check it out, and found it very welcoming and very comfortable to me as an inquiring Catholic.

SyroMalankara, if you don’t mind me asking–what is the Syro Malankara church? I’ve been Catholic all my life and have never heard of it.

 

[Thorolfr]

Absolutely, some connect to their version of what they term ‘God’ according to the ‘prophetic’ voices of Joseph Smith or Mary Baker Eddy or L. Ron Hubbard, etc. Of course they and others like them would be wrong - objectively.

Reading your comment again, I must admit that I have doubts about those three, too and the churches or religions they founded. But I hesitate to say with complete certainty that someone cannot find God in a certain place.

 

[Abu]

Thorolfr #99
I also strongly believe that some issues must be left to the individual consciences of each believer, not dictated by a Magisterium

Really? Unless the conscience is formed correctly, then it is subject to the negative influences all around us and tempted by sin, since we are all under the effects of Original Sin, to form its own judgment not necessarily based on sound teaching.

Where is that sound teaching found? Only from the Christ who founded His Catholic Church precisely to lead all to salvation.

As Christ instituted His Church with His Magisterium as He conclusively mandated (post #61), and conscience may be gravely mistaken due to that mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, it can thus lead to errors of judgment in moral conduct.

Therefore, as conscience is not a god, but a judgment of the practical reason as Msgr Cormac P Burke (Law and Dissent, 1985) points out, "for the Catholic, there is never a conflict between the authority of the Church and conscience, because belief that Christ has given His Church authority to teach without error is part of his conscience, freely accepted. According to Canon 205, Catholics are those in full communion with the Church through the bonds of profession of faith, the sacraments and ecclesiastical governance.”

and that I should be able to read and interpret the Bible for myself and not have to bow to some other authority to tell me what it all means.

Which erroneous feeling has produced the many thousands of sects all teaching something different.

But we only have the Sacred Scriptures because the Catholic Church, and She alone, has defined and authorized what writings they comprise, with 73 Books, no more nor less, in the New Testament, written by Her Members – the followers of Christ – who heard His Words, for He wrote nothing.

The failure to understand Christ, His Church, Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium is highlighted in Sacred Scripture, and solved only by Christ’s Catholic Church:
St Paul’s epistles have “some things hard to understand, which those who are unlearned and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.” [2Pet 3:16]

“…no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man but, but holy men of God spoken as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.” [2Pet 1: 20-21].

The Ethiopian eunuch reading Isaiah was asked by Philip who had been moved by the Holy Spirit – “Do you understand what you are reading? And he said, ‘How can I unless some man show me?’ And he asked Philip to come and sit with him.” [Acts 8:30-31].

As a companion of Christ, Saint John wrote: “And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by on, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.’ (Jn 21:25).

Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours." (2 Thess 2:15).

“Take as your norm the sound words that you heard from me, with faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. Guard this rich trust with the help of the Holy Spirit that dwells within us.” (2 Tim 1:13-14). Again St Paul writes: “And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well.” (2 Tim 2:2).

In Colossians 2: 4-23, St Paul calls on his flock to follow Christ “as you were taught” and warns against merely “human precepts and teachings.”

1 Cor 1:10: I urge you brothers, in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and in the same purpose.

We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. (1Jn 4:6).

“That we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness by which they lie in wait to deceive.” (Eph 4:14). Further, “For there will come a time when they will not endure the sound doctrine; but having itching ears, will heap up to themselves teachers according to their lusts. And they will turn away their hearing from the truth and turn aside rather to fables.” (2 Tim 4:3).

The result of not following Christ and the Sacred Scriptures of His Church, of substituting personal preferences, is the many thousands of differing interpretations and loss of the priesthood, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and nearly all of the sacraments.

 

[Thorolfr]

But we only have the Sacred Scriptures because the Catholic Church, and She alone, has defined and authorized what writings they comprise, with 73 Books, no more nor less, in the New Testament, written by Her Members – the followers of Christ – who heard His Words, for He wrote nothing.

I’m not absolutely certain that every book in the New Testament should be there or that others that were left out shouldn’t be there. Luther, for example, called the Epistle of James an “epistle of straw.” He also didn’t care much for Hebrews, Jude and Revelation. In fact, Revelation was the last book to be accepted into the canon and Luther said that it was “neither apostolic nor prophetic” and it was the only book in the New Testament on which Calvin did not care to write a commentary. There are also other books that might tell us something about God that were left out of the New Testament such as the Gospel of Thomas. There are many other non-canonical early Christian books that I would be interested in reading.

 

[ericc]

Ironic. I was an Episcopalian, and converted to Catholicism. I never looked back. As a bonus, my father is an Episcopalian priest, retired.

My Dad’s church was big, he was there for 15 years. It was more like a country club then a church. People were nice, but I was the “preachers kid.” The congregation was conservative. They didn’t like touchy feely at all.

It was a great life for me growing up. I got to stay at all of these rich parishioner’s vacation homes, my parents went to all these parties, and I was so very charming. The whole thing was empty. As a child, I was an alter boy, and I had faith. When I got older, I found out my father had lost his faith.

I loved the rich liturgy, the stained glass, the dark woods and the marble. The music was awsome, and the church, the building itself, was my personal playground during the summers.

When I grew up, I began to drift spiritually. The Episcopal church lacked… I don’t know… teeth? There was no accountability. All other denominations left me cold. I tried them all save the really scary Protestant ones. The Catholic church appealed to me a great deal, but being in my 20’s and no sex till marriage? Hmmm.

So I entered what I refer to as my wandering in the desert years. I had a blast in the 80s and made money in the 90s, but I was empty. I needed God, but I kept looking in the wrong places. That was when I became a seeker. Nothing worked, everything seemed like a play, a show. The weight of sin got heavier and heavier all the while. I was basically still a good person, but the hypocrisy I saw everywhere was too much.

To make a long story short, it took me hitting a hard spiritual, financial, and emotional bottom before coming back. I KNEW in my heart of hearts, the only redemption for me would be confession, confession to a REAL priest. I began a long look at Catholicism and finally went. I never regretted it.

Every Mass is a joy. Catholicism isn’t about one day a week, one hour, sitting in a pew. It is every day, every moment in a universal church that is still is plugged in to God. I FEEL it. I feel it the most in adoration, and confession. I feel it in the Eucharist and with every bead I tick off on the Rosary. I have never looked back.

I still like the Episcopal Church, and many are happy there, but it is only a reflection of a Church that is so much more to me, one that saved my life, this one and hopefully the next one.

Best wishes,
-E

Beautifully narrated:thumbsup:

I remembered those wandering years too though I never jumped ship.

 

[Contarini]

Wasn’t this the original insinuation?

No. The original insinuation was that the Episcopal Church is about to close down entirely, or at least that whatever parish virgo might join was likely to, which amounted to the same thing.

t The author may be using hyperbole, and including the steady dismantling Anglican Communion, and breakaway dioceses of the Episcopal church altogether.

Most Episcopalians really don’t care that much about GAFCON (the conservative network of Anglican provinces that may be turning itself into an alternative Anglican Communion, though they claim that their mission is to allow the Communion so survive), or even, to be honest, the Anglican Communion. Presiding Bishop +Schori doesn’t want to call the Episcopal Church a “province” or a “national church” but points out that it is an “international church” because it has some non-U.S. provinces. For her and many Episcopalians, the organized church body that matters is the Episcopal Church, of course within (at least notionally) the worldwide body of believers of all traditions.

I disagree with this attitude very strongly, and virgo should indeed be aware of it. He/she should not become Episcopalian with the same promise I did in 1998, that I was joining not just the Episcopal Church but the Anglican Communion. The modern Episcopal Church has asserted itself pretty strongly as a self-standing entity, and has rejected an attempt to give the Anglican Communion disciplinary teeth. But that’s not the same thing as the “wheels coming off the bus.” That language, like all the other loaded language used on this forum, imposes on the Episcopal Church the biases and assumptions of more conservative Christians. Again, I have very serious concerns about the direction of the Episcopal Church, but my experience with it over the past 17 years simply doesn’t bear out the rather gleeful projections of doom that are common on this forum.

A better analogy would be a site like Rorate or an SSPX backed page.

Sure, if we’re talking about Virtue’s relationship to Anglicanism or the SSPX’ relationship to Pope Francis. I used the other analogy because Virtue is completely hostile to the Episcopal Church as an institution. But it doesn’t much matter. The point is that he has a very strong bias and has frequently been known to distort the evidence.

Some would say the same about the vast majority of journalists who mention the Catholic Church, including the latest comment by the President regarding the Inquisition and the Crusades. But after all, it’s to be expected regarding Catholicism, it’s far less likely to be said about an establishment church like the Episcopalians.

Depends by whom. Catholicism is in fact larger and more powerful than the Episcopal Church by a long shot. Certainly in the past Episcopalians were the “establishment” and Catholics (in the U.S. and Britain) were the religion of the lower classes to a great extent. But that probably hasn’t been the case since WWII in any meaningful way. You can’t simultaneously deride us for our dwindling size and importance and play the “poor Catholic Church vs. mighty Episcopal establishment” card.

But I’m not disputing that plenty of journalists distort Catholicism pretty horrifically. I wrote a very angry email to NPR a couple of years ago about Sylvia Poggioli’s hatchet job on the anniversary of Vatican II, and that wasn’t even unusually bad by the standards of secular journalism (it was unusually bad by NPR’s standards, but I don’t expect people on this forum to agree with my high opinion of that particular news source!). Let’s not get into the President’s speech!

One would think that the experience of being misrepresented would make Catholics more sensitive to misrepresenting others. But over and over again, this forum reminds me that human nature doesn’t work that way.

Edwin

 

[Abu]

Thorolfr #104
I’m not absolutely certain that every book in the New Testament should be there or that others that were left out shouldn’t be there. Luther, for example, called the Epistle of James an “epistle of straw.”

Neither you, nor I, nor Luther have been authorized by Christ to judge what books should be in the N.T. Christ gave His Church, founded on St Peter, that mandate, when He established Her.

That Luther could so despise St James and Christ’s Church, confirms his illusory feelings.

 

[Thorolfr]

Neither you, nor I, nor Luther have been authorized by Christ to judge what books should be in the N.T. Christ gave His Church, founded on St Peter, that mandate, when He established Her.

That Luther could so despise St James and Christ’s Church, confirms his illusory feelings.

It’s not even certain that St. James wrote the Epistle of James. Luther himself, for example, did not believe it was written by one of the apostles. The author merely calls himself “James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ.” But since James was a very common name, we don’t know for sure which person named James wrote it.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Thorolfr, I attended a Lutheran service today just to check it out, and found it very welcoming and very comfortable to me as an inquiring Catholic.

SyroMalankara, if you don’t mind me asking–what is the Syro Malankara church? I’ve been Catholic all my life and have never heard of it.

The Syro-Malankara Church is an Eastern Catholic Church in Communion with the Bishop of Rome and the other Eastern Catholic Churches. It is the West Syriac Rite Church founded by St. Thomas the Apostle, and based in India. We share the same culture, Traditions, Liturgy and Patrimony as our Syriac and Malankara Orthodox brothers and sisters, while being fully Catholic.

The head and father of the Malankara Syriac Catholic Church is the Catholicos - His Beatitude Baselios Cleemis [Cardinal] (Thottukal)
malankaracatholicchurchuk.com/images/bishop/1Cleemis-bava.jpg

 

[SyroMalankara]

Most Episcopalians really don’t care that much about GAFCON (the conservative network of Anglican provinces that may be turning itself into an alternative Anglican Communion, though they claim that their mission is to allow the Communion so survive), or even, to be honest, the Anglican Communion. Presiding Bishop +Schori doesn’t want to call the Episcopal Church a “province” or a “national church” but points out that it is an “international church” because it has some non-U.S. provinces. For her and many Episcopalians, the organized church body that matters is the Episcopal Church, of course within (at least notionally) the worldwide body of believers of all traditions.

Of course Episcopalians are very small compared to the worldwide body of the Anglican Communion, and when the Episcopalians innovate and tell everyone else that they need to accept whatever they decide, well it gets hairy.

I disagree with this attitude very strongly, and virgo should indeed be aware of it. He/she should not become Episcopalian with the same promise I did in 1998, that I was joining not just the Episcopal Church but the Anglican Communion. The modern Episcopal Church has asserted itself pretty strongly as a self-standing entity, and has rejected an attempt to give the Anglican Communion disciplinary teeth. But that’s not the same thing as the “wheels coming off the bus.” That language, like all the other loaded language used on this forum, imposes on the Episcopal Church the biases and assumptions of more conservative Christians. Again, I have very serious concerns about the direction of the Episcopal Church, but my experience with it over the past 17 years simply doesn’t bear out the rather gleeful projections of doom that are common on this forum.

Time will tell, but the previously worldwide Anglican Communion, of which the Episcopalians were the US representative is no longer. The Episcopalians today have less ‘pull’ relative to the rest of the Communion and even within the US are becoming less influential as a denomination.

Depends by whom. Catholicism is in fact larger and more powerful than the Episcopal Church by a long shot. Certainly in the past Episcopalians were the “establishment” and Catholics (in the U.S. and Britain) were the religion of the lower classes to a great extent. But that probably hasn’t been the case since WWII in any meaningful way. You can’t simultaneously deride us for our dwindling size and importance and play the “poor Catholic Church vs. mighty Episcopal establishment” card.

Who’s Cathedral is termed the “National Cathedral”? Which establishment group carry the brand of most US presidents:
http://www.pewforum.org/files/2012/07/prez1.gif
Which group has hardly been derided nationally, despite having similar (or worse) issues to Catholicism as far as scandal, intrigue, and deviant (or even criminal) clerics?

But I’m not disputing that plenty of journalists distort Catholicism pretty horrifically. I wrote a very angry email to NPR a couple of years ago about Sylvia Poggioli’s hatchet job on the anniversary of Vatican II, and that wasn’t even unusually bad by the standards of secular journalism (it was unusually bad by NPR’s standards, but I don’t expect people on this forum to agree with my high opinion of that particular news source!). Let’s not get into the President’s speech!

I listen to NPR almost daily, usually I agree with it’s balanced reporting and tone. It’s bias against Catholicism is obvious, as is BBC’s bias against Catholicism. The subversive tone and selection of fringe dissidents as representative of the Church is ridiculous. They don’t do that to other denominations, especially Episcopalians.

One would think that the experience of being misrepresented would make Catholics more sensitive to misrepresenting others. But over and over again, this forum reminds me that human nature doesn’t work that way.

I’m not sure The Episcopalian Church is being misrepresented. GKC and a few others here seem to post regularly and clearly regarding their church. How many Episcopalian fora have welcomed Catholics not pro-women’s ordination, pro-LGBT marriage, are treat them respectfully?

 

[Thorolfr]

What? No Lutheran presidents?

 

[Abu]

Thorolfr #108
It’s not even certain that St. James wrote the Epistle of James. Luther himself, for example, did not believe it was written by one of the apostles.

Luther was notoriously wrong about so much, and cannot be relied upon.

But, once again, it is only the Catholic Church founded and guaranteed by God Himself that can and did proclaim and authorize the books of the Sacred Scriptures as the Word of God, so all other suppositions are futile.

 

[Thorolfr]

But, once again, it is only the Catholic Church founded and guaranteed by God Himself that can and did proclaim and authorize the books of the Sacred Scriptures as the Word of God, so all other suppositions are futile.

Resistance is futile?

 

[Izdaari]

I’m Episcopalian and also ELCA Lutheran (I only belong to one church, but it has both formal affiliations). I was previously Baptist and later Pentecostal (AoG), but since I’ve considered myself Anglican at heart, this is coming home.

 

[GKC]

Of course Episcopalians are very small compared to the worldwide body of the Anglican Communion, and when the Episcopalians innovate and tell everyone else that they need to accept whatever they decide, well it gets hairy.

Time will tell, but the previously worldwide Anglican Communion, of which the Episcopalians were the US representative is no longer. The Episcopalians today have less ‘pull’ relative to the rest of the Communion and even within the US are becoming less influential as a denomination.

Who’s Cathedral is termed the “National Cathedral”? Which establishment group carry the brand of most US presidents:
http://www.pewforum.org/files/2012/07/prez1.gif
Which group has hardly been derided nationally, despite having similar (or worse) issues to Catholicism as far as scandal, intrigue, and deviant (or even criminal) clerics?

I listen to NPR almost daily, usually I agree with it’s balanced reporting and tone. It’s bias against Catholicism is obvious, as is BBC’s bias against Catholicism. The subversive tone and selection of fringe dissidents as representative of the Church is ridiculous. They don’t do that to other denominations, especially Episcopalians.

I’m not sure The Episcopalian Church is being misrepresented. GKC and a few others here seem to post regularly and clearly regarding their church. How many Episcopalian fora have welcomed Catholics not pro-women’s ordination, pro-LGBT marriage, are treat them respectfully?

I plead guilty to posting regularly. But the jury might be out as to clearly posting. I’m not Episcopalian, though I study the species, as a rather fascinating train wreck. I’m no expert, but I’d say that Edwin’s take on the fate of TEC is accurate. It’s not likely to disappear. But it is going to be smaller, more compact, and more “purified”. Or perhaps, less motley is a better way to put it.

Oh, yeah. Almost forgot. I’m an Anglo-Catholic, in the Anglican Continuum. I’d have to pick an Episcopalian forum carefully, to get any sort of welcome for my strain of Anglican orthodoxy. If I wanted to waste my time.

GKC, Anglicanus-Catholicus, posterus traditus Anglicanus.

 

[SteveVH]

It’s not even certain that St. James wrote the Epistle of James. Luther himself, for example, did not believe it was written by one of the apostles. The author merely calls himself “James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ.” But since James was a very common name, we don’t know for sure which person named James wrote it.

Who wrote the letter to the Hebrews? The point is it doesn’t matter if St. James wrote the epistle. It has been declared the inerrant word of God as much as the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

 

[seanman611]

No. The original insinuation was that the Episcopal Church is about to close down entirely, or at least that whatever parish virgo might join was likely to, which amounted to the same thing.

Most Episcopalians really don’t care that much about GAFCON (the conservative network of Anglican provinces that may be turning itself into an alternative Anglican Communion, though they claim that their mission is to allow the Communion so survive), or even, to be honest, the Anglican Communion. Presiding Bishop +Schori doesn’t want to call the Episcopal Church a “province” or a “national church” but points out that it is an “international church” because it has some non-U.S. provinces. For her and many Episcopalians, the organized church body that matters is the Episcopal Church, of course within (at least notionally) the worldwide body of believers of all traditions.

I disagree with this attitude very strongly, and virgo should indeed be aware of it. He/she should not become Episcopalian with the same promise I did in 1998, that I was joining not just the Episcopal Church but the Anglican Communion. The modern Episcopal Church has asserted itself pretty strongly as a self-standing entity, and has rejected an attempt to give the Anglican Communion disciplinary teeth. But that’s not the same thing as the “wheels coming off the bus.” That language, like all the other loaded language used on this forum, imposes on the Episcopal Church the biases and assumptions of more conservative Christians. Again, I have very serious concerns about the direction of the Episcopal Church, but my experience with it over the past 17 years simply doesn’t bear out the rather gleeful projections of doom that are common on this forum.

I think that some of the doom and gloom may be justified. The Episcopal Church has declined 25% in average Sunday attendance in 10 years (it’s in the 600,000 range currently). Unfortunately, that is something that just can’t be chalked up entirely to changing demographics. If TEC continued at its current trajectory, the church will have a Sunday attendance of 0 in under 50 years. I don’t think we can point to any one controversy or issue as being the sole cause, but it is interesting that TEC went from regular mainline decline to an almost free fall since 2003, which was a controversial year for TEC. I think some sort of ELCA/TEC merger is almost a guarantee.

Heck, my own parish has only a five years left at best.

I don’t say this with any sort of glee or happiness as I love TEC and will continue to love TEC even though I can no longer remain.

 

[Thorolfr]

Who wrote the letter to the Hebrews? The point is it doesn’t matter if St. James wrote the epistle. It has been declared the inerrant word of God as much as the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

Do most Catholics actually believe in Scriptural inerrancy? There do seem to be some contradictions in scripture.