Any Episcopalians in the house?

[wmscott]

I really don’t care how large the episcopal church is, I just look forward to being among those of like minds and hearts and know that I am building a closer relationship with Christ. Edwin is spot on, by the way. The defensiveness and dismissive attitudes illustrates my point exactly.

Virgo, are you noticing something? It really does not matter where you look among the different faith traditions, the “zealous” attitudes you want to avoid is everywhere. That is why the prayers to the HS for guidance is all so important. You may be lead to stay in the Catholic Church to deal with the zealous ones where you already are. We all have our cross to bear. good luck

 

[virgo]

You make a valid point, wmscott–I will indeed find all types of personalities and levels of zealotry wherever I go. However, the types of Catholics I’ve spoken of here do not define my only reason for wanting out. They are just the tipping point for me, but my real issues are with doctrine. For example (and this is just one of many examples), I was chuckling to myself one day when I was reading about Luther’s condemnation of plenary indulgences. I mean–who ever thought that making poor folk pay for an “indulgence” was a good idea?!? Oh yeah–cardinals and the like. So I did some research into when plenary indulgences ended and how and discovered that–lo and behold–they still exist?!? How did I not know this as a Catholic? Also–what in the world? Does the church really think it can dispense forgivness/indulgence for another’s sins? It just doesn’t make sense, and I do not believe it for a moment. Each man and woman is responsible for their sins and it is between them and God. We have no idea what truly happens after death, how long a person would spend in purgatory if there is such a thing, etc etc. Just one point of many in which I think the Catholic church is totally out of line.

 

[Thorolfr]

I’m Episcopalian and also ELCA Lutheran (I only belong to one church, but it has both formal affiliations). I was previously Baptist and later Pentecostal (AoG), but since I’ve considered myself Anglican at heart, this is coming home.

I was raised fundamentalist Baptist but became ELCA Lutheran. I like being a Lutheran much more than being a Baptist

 

[Contarini]

You make a valid point, wmscott–I will indeed find all types of personalities and levels of zealotry wherever I go. However, the types of Catholics I’ve spoken of here do not define my only reason for wanting out. They are just the tipping point for me, but my real issues are with doctrine. For example (and this is just one of many examples), I was chuckling to myself one day when I was reading about Luther’s condemnation of plenary indulgences. I mean–who ever thought that making poor folk pay for an “indulgence” was a good idea?!? Oh yeah–cardinals and the like. So I did some research into when plenary indulgences ended and how and discovered that–lo and behold–they still exist?!? How did I not know this as a Catholic? Also–what in the world? Does the church really think it can dispense forgivness/indulgence for another’s sins? It just doesn’t make sense, and I do not believe it for a moment. Each man and woman is responsible for their sins and it is between them and God. We have no idea what truly happens after death, how long a person would spend in purgatory if there is such a thing, etc etc. Just one point of many in which I think the Catholic church is totally out of line.

Virgo, I have a problem with indulgences too, but maybe you should look into the theological issues a bit more.

No one defends the “selling” of indulgences. That is not and never was doctrine.

Catholic teaching on indulgences is summarized in CCC 1471-79. The entire section on penance of course is important as the context for the doctrine of indulgences.

John Paul II explained Catholic teaching on indulgences here.

You may well be familiar with these texts already, and please forgive me if I’m insulting you by pointing out such obvious resources. But your reaction above didn’t mention these or any other modern statement of the Church’s teaching. Surely these texts are the proper starting point for an examination of whether this is a teaching that should cause you to leave the Roman Communion.

Edwin

 

[virgo]

I am familiar with those texts, and have read them recently a few times just to make sure I fully understood what they were saying. Yet I still feel they are wrong–how can the church know God’s mercies and how they work? I just feel that there is so much that we as humans do not know with any certainly, an the church sounds so certain about penances and what will or will not make you well in the eyes of God. We just can’t know that.

 

[Contarini]

I think that some of the doom and gloom may be justified. The Episcopal Church has declined 25% in average Sunday attendance in 10 years (it’s in the 600,000 range currently). Unfortunately, that is something that just can’t be chalked up entirely to changing demographics. If TEC continued at its current trajectory, the church will have a Sunday attendance of 0 in under 50 years…

I’ve pointed out several times that this isn’t so. If it declines 25% every 10 years, then in 50 years it will have an average Sunday attendance of about 140,000. People keep projecting the decline based on absolute numbers, but that doesn’t make sense.

And, of course, a large part of the decline had to do with 2003. Which is a good reason for not expecting it to continue at the same rate, since most of the people who were upset enough to leave have now left.

And to Syro-Malankara: you yourself say in your last post (correctly) that the Episcopal Church’s influence is declining relative to other Christian bodies. Which is my point. Historically, the Episcopal Church has always “punched above its weight” relative to its numbers. It has indeed played a prominent role in national life in spite of being pretty small. However, it is now even smaller relative to other churches than it used to be, and it no longer has the same kind of prestige and power. Catholics, meanwhile, are hardly the church of poor immigrants that they were to some extent even 100 years ago.

But I was not disputing that the secular media are generally speaking prejudiced against Catholicism and give the Episcopal Church and other mainline denominations a break, relatively speaking.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

I am familiar with those texts, and have read them recently a few times just to make sure I fully understood what they were saying. Yet I still feel they are wrong–how can the church know God’s mercies and how they work? I just feel that there is so much that we as humans do not know with any certainly, an the church sounds so certain about penances and what will or will not make you well in the eyes of God. We just can’t know that.

I have problems with the “treasury” language too and with the legal way the whole thing has historically been phrased. I like JPII’s attempt to put it in different terms, but of course he’s constrained by the tradition in many respects.

I don’t think it’s presumptuous for the Church to say that certain acts, done in the right spirit, will tend to contribute to a person’s spiritual healing. And if that’s all indulgences are (plus the transferral of them to other people, which again is OK in my book if it’s put in terms of the mystical Body and not in the legal/financial terms current in the past), then I can accept them.

But I did groan inwardly in RCIA yesterday when someone asked how to be freed from the burden of things in her past that weren’t mortal sins (but were either venial sins or things that others had done that still weighed her down in some way), and instead of saying, “the Eucharist,” the first response by one of the sponsors (the most traditional Catholic in the group) was to talk about Divine Mercy Sunday and the special indulgences available at that time.

And I get that for you this is the focus of a whole set of concerns about legalism, and I think those concerns are valid. I’m just not sure that you are actually objecting to the core of Catholic teaching so much as to the forms it has taken in the West. (Eastern Catholics, for instance, generally speak differently about these things, while maintaining the same basic teaching.)

Edwin

 

[virgo]

Exactly. And I’m one of those people who looks into absolutely everything before committing to something, especially something as significant as my religion. I know that most of my (non-zealous) Catholic friends just go to Mass, sign the kids up for faith formation, and don’t think too much beyond that. Of course, I’m the type of person who has to read all the fine print before signing on that line. I probably shouldn’t read the Catechism line by line, because everything I read has me shaking my head and saying to myself, “No wonder Martin Luther!”

 

[Contarini]

Exactly. And I’m one of those people who looks into absolutely everything before committing to something, especially something as significant as my religion. I know that most of my (non-zealous) Catholic friends just go to Mass, sign the kids up for faith formation, and don’t think too much beyond that. Of course, I’m the type of person who has to read all the fine print before signing on that line. I probably shouldn’t read the Catechism line by line, because everything I read has me shaking my head and saying to myself, “No wonder Martin Luther!”

Well, I have the opposite reaction, by and large–obviously Luther was wrong about Rome because the Catechism exists! Though a lot depends on which way I’m facing, so to speak (i.e., the closer I get to actually becoming Catholic the more I agree with you,which is why I have never quite managed to take the jump!).

Edwin

 

[Thorolfr]

I’ve pointed out several times that this isn’t so. If it declines 25% every 10 years, then in 50 years it will have an average Sunday attendance of about 140,000. People keep projecting the decline based on absolute numbers, but that doesn’t make sense.

And, of course, a large part of the decline had to do with 2003. Which is a good reason for not expecting it to continue at the same rate, since most of the people who were upset enough to leave have now left.

Some people have also been predicting the demise of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in American (ELCA) as well. They usually base their predictions on how many members and congregations were lost following the 2009 vote to allow gay clergy. It’s true that there were only 10 congregations that left in 2009 before the vote and 302 congregations left in 2010 and another 298 left in 2011. If the ELCA continued to decline at that rate indefinitely, then it would indeed disappear after a while. But in 2012 only 49 congregations left and in 2013, only 16 congregations left. I’m not sure how many left last year (2014), but it’s obvious that most of the people upset over the gay clergy vote in 2009 left in 2010 and 2011 and the loses are now approaching what they were before the vote in 2009. There is no reason to believe that the ELCA will disappear any time soon.

elcatoday.com/witness-stone-blog/number-of-churches-that-left-the-elca-from-2009-to-2013

 

[SyroMalankara]

Even if the legal charter exists, the precipitous drop of active, paying, attending practicing members should be alarming to their respective leaders. A Episcopalutheran parish would be unheard of 100 yrs ago, as would a Epsicopalian-UCC parish, however these are becoming the norm to keep the lights on. Of course, this also means a lot of doctrine is allowed to go by the wayside and differences go unmentioned to keep the peace. Is it sustainable? Maybe for a generation or two at most.

 

[seanman611]

I’ve pointed out several times that this isn’t so. If it declines 25% every 10 years, then in 50 years it will have an average Sunday attendance of about 140,000. People keep projecting the decline based on absolute numbers, but that doesn’t make sense.

TEC is bleeding about 18,000 per year when it comes to Sunday attendance. Domestically, TEC went from 640,000 in 2012 to 623,000 in 2013. The problem with this figure is that it doesn’t take into account the loss of the diocese of South Carolina. If South Carolina is factored into the 2013 figures, then TEC has a domestic ASA of about 601,000. If the church continues on its current trajectory, it wouldn’t be surprising to see them lose a few more dioceses or a big portion of them (example: Central Florida, Springfield, Dallas, Western Louisiana, Albany, etc.). Furthermore, there are many who are waiting for a decision on communion without baptism and same-sex marriages becoming part of the canons.

And, of course, a large part of the decline had to do with 2003. Which is a good reason for not expecting it to continue at the same rate, since most of the people who were upset enough to leave have now left.

I disagree and the numbers that they have been losing on Sunday have been pretty consistent, although it might be slowing down just a little bit. However, factoring in communion without baptism (which will pass, inclusive movements always gain steam in TEC) and other controversies that will not doubt get the stamp of approval from GC will keep the flow to the exit pretty steady IMO.

Even if they were able to hold on, an ASA of 140,000 is pretty pathetic. IMO, TEC will either merge with the ELCA or become a relic of the past that you may still find on the coasts.

 

[Thorolfr]

TEC is bleeding about 18,000 per year when it comes to Sunday attendance. Domestically, TEC went from 640,000 in 2012 to 623,000 in 2013. The problem with this figure is that it doesn’t take into account the loss of the diocese of South Carolina. If South Carolina is factored into the 2013 figures, then TEC has a domestic ASA of about 601,000. If the church continues on its current trajectory, it wouldn’t be surprising to see them lose a few more dioceses or a big portion of them (example: Central Florida, Springfield, Dallas, Western Louisiana, Albany, etc.). Furthermore, there are many who are waiting for a decision on communion without baptism and same-sex marriages becoming part of the canons.

I don’t know why all these predictions of doom and gloom for the Anglicans when compared to other Christian denominations. It seems that most of them aren’t doing that well.

As I already posted earlier, the Catholic Church has also had a net decline in membership in Latin America, going from 90% of the population before 1960 to 69% now. Another recent survey found that Catholics in the US who regularly attend Mass fell from 47% in 1974 to only 24% in 2012. Also according to that survey, “In 1988, there were 19,705 parishes in the U.S., while there are now 17,483, according to the Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate (CARA) at Georgetown University…The current number of parishes is about equal to the number that existed in 1965, even as the number of self-identified U.S. Catholics has risen in the past half-century, from 48.5 million to 76.7 million between 1965 and 2014, according to CARA’s data.”

pewforum.org/2014/11/13/religion-in-latin-america/

pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/11/06/the-number-of-u-s-catholics-has-grown-so-why-are-there-fewer-parishes/

 

[Randy_Carson]

I plead guilty to posting regularly. But the jury might be out as to clearly posting. I’m not Episcopalian, though I study the species, as a rather fascinating train wreck. I’m no expert, but I’d say that Edwin’s take on the fate of TEC is accurate. It’s not likely to disappear. But it is going to be smaller, more compact, and more “purified”. Or perhaps, less motley is a better way to put it.

Oh, yeah. Almost forgot. I’m an Anglo-Catholic, in the Anglican Continuum. I’d have to pick an Episcopalian forum carefully, to get any sort of welcome for my strain of Anglican orthodoxy. If I wanted to waste my time.

GKC, Anglicanus-Catholicus, posterus traditus Anglicanus.

Virgo-

This is a deeply personal decision for you, but I can’t help noting that you are planning on moving away from Catholicism and into the Episcopal Church just as the wheels are flying off of the Anglican/Episcopalian communion.

When you finally arrive, you may find that someone pulling out of the parking lot hands you a set of keys to a darkened building.

Of course you can help making uninformed and nasty remarks about other bodies of Christians. All it takes is a little willpower, Randy.

Say that Episcopalians are heretics. But spare the prognostications for people who actually have some experience. Episcopal parishes are not growing and booming, but most are in no danger of closing. And people are finding God there.

Gloating over the supposed (much exaggerated) decline and collapse of other religious bodies does nothing except make you feel good (in a way that is by no means healthy for your own soul), make people who think like you applaud you and strengthen their own most vicious impulses, and alienate all who don’t already share your prejudices.

So just cut it out.

Edwin

GKC notes in his post that the Anglican communion is a train wreck. Crickets.

I post that the wheels are coming off the Anglican communion, and I get blasted by Contarini.

 

[MaryT777]

GKC notes in his post that the Anglican communion is a train wreck. Crickets.

I post that the wheels are coming off the Anglican communion, and I get blasted by Contarini.

Some posters just can’t help themselves by blasting the poster instead of the content.

Mary.

 

[GKC]

GKC notes in his post that the Anglican communion is a train wreck. Crickets.

I post that the wheels are coming off the Anglican communion, and I get blasted by Contarini.

Contarini and I see the Anglicanism of TEC/CoE /1st world Anglicanism differently. And he and I have danced the subject, over the years. In fact, he was the first person to reply to me, after I posted the first time I ever posed anything, anywhere, maybe 15+ years ago, on that very topic. But we agree that the decline that TEC has experienced over the past years does not mean that it is going to disappear. When I say the thing is a train wreck, I mean doctrinally, in its trajectory.

And his experience of that Church, as an institution, is far deeper, broader, and more immediate than mine is.

GKC

 

[esieffe]

thank you for posting that. having been to high anglican service wonderful music wonderful prayers

i just wish all our christian brethren could be as one again in our true catholic church

the english church is catholic; it is just english catholic i hope they come Home soon

I feel that way too. Evidently Pope Benedict did as well. That is why I said the EC is a reflection of the CC. If it had not been for the EC, I may never have come to the CC. I feel absolutely no bad feelings whatsoever for the EC.

 

[ericc]

I am familiar with those texts, and have read them recently a few times just to make sure I fully understood what they were saying. Yet I still feel they are wrong–how can the church know God’s mercies and how they work? I just feel that there is so much that we as humans do not know with any certainly, an the church sounds so certain about penances and what will or will not make you well in the eyes of God. We just can’t know that.

Because they were given the authority to bind and loose? They were given authority to forgive and retain sins? Because Christ declared the Church is the foundation and pillar of truth? Because the HS will guide the Church into all truths? If the Church has been given authority by Christ himself, why do you doubt God’s words? Isn’t the guarantee given By Christ good enough for you (Mat 16:17-19)? Sinners in the Church doesn’t remove this divine authority, it was all foreknown. Where else can you find this divine authority?

 

[namax91]

There is no such thing as an “Anglican Church” existing as some kind of rival to the Catholic Church.

There was certainly a rivalry for a while, otherwise St. Thomas More would not have been killed, monasteries ransacked, or Catholicism made illegal.

Under Henry (and finally under Elizabeth I after a return under Mary I), this body of Christians became independent of Rome. From an Anglican point of view, that does not constitute leaving the Church Christ founded.

Wouldn’t becoming independent of Rome amount to leaving the Catholic Church?

 

[Novocastrian]

There was certainly a rivalry for a while, otherwise St. Thomas More would not have been killed, monasteries ransacked, or Catholicism made illegal. Wouldn’t becoming independent of Rome amount to leaving the Catholic Church?

If you think that to be saved all creatures must be subject to the Roman Pontiff, then yes. If not, then not necessarily.