Any Episcopalians in the house?

[Thorolfr]

If a man came to your church and openly admitted to being a pedophile, would you welcome him with open arms? Even if he said that he would NEVER give up raping young boys and that he had made arrangements to have a permanent supply of young boys to sodomize?

Would you welcome THAT person with open arms?

The pedophile, of course, can stop doing what he’s doing, repent and I would assume start taking communion again. But the person who has divorced and remarried cannot undo that second marriage without divorcing him/her. Is that a solution that the Church would approve of?

 

[Randy_Carson]

The pedophile, of course, can stop doing what he’s doing, repent and I would assume start taking communion again. But the person who has divorced and remarried cannot undo that second marriage without divorcing him/her. Is that a solution that the Church would approve of?

You didn’t answer the question. Would you welcome the person who said, “I’m going to continue in this sin forever and make no effort to change”?

Regarding the remarriage situation, there are two possibilities:

1. 
   *]The first marriage never existed. The annulment process seeks to determine this. If this is the case, then the person may have his second marriage regularized by exchanging vows before a priest. Until an annulment is granted, the couple may agree to live together without sexual relations.
   *]The first marriage was valid in which case the person is still married to his first spouse and the second marriage is null and void since it is not possible to be married to two people simultaneously.
   
   I appreciate that there are no easy answers when people get themselves into these situations, but the Church can help sort it out.

 

[Thorolfr]

You didn’t answer the question. Would you welcome the person who said, “I’m going to continue in this sin forever and make no effort to change”?

It would depend on what the “sin” is or whether I even considered it to be a sin. A pedophile who continues to harm children would, of course, be more difficult to welcome than some others. A person who has amicably divorced a first spouse and remarried to someone else I would not have a problem welcoming since this does not harm anyone. I wouldn’t even consider it to be a sin (but then I’m not Catholic).

 

[Contarini]

Yep.

But first things, first. Begin the process and see what comes of it.

Now, about welcoming folks…are there NO absolutes for the Church, Thorolfr?

If a man came to your church and openly admitted to being a pedophile, would you welcome him with open arms? Even if he said that he would NEVER give up raping young boys and that he had made arrangements to have a permanent supply of young boys to sodomize?

Would you welcome THAT person with open arms?

Obviously, I’m using an extreme example to illustrate a point and I’m not equating pedophilia with the civil marriage under discussion. However, I am taking issue with your apparent disagreement with the Catholic Church’s guidance that those who are in a civil marriage without having a first marriage annulled should refrain from reception of the Eucharist. Surely the Church should have some standards that we adhere to?

I think your example is a very appropriate one to point out the problems with a rhetoric of “inclusion” that bypasses talk about repentance.

However, I think it actually shows up the real problems with the conservative position (I say “conservative” simply because it is broader than just the Catholic Church, obviously) on sexuality. It’s easy to see why a person who rapes and abuses children–or abuses and harms people generally–should be disciplined and brought to repentance. What is less clear is that someone whose marriage has failed, and who is seeking to be faithful in a new marriage, should be deprived of the help of the Sacraments–or, for that matter, a gay couple who are seeking to express their sexuality in mutual fidelity rather than in promiscuity or exploitation.

I am not saying necessarily that Catholic discipline is wrong on these points. I am certainly not saying that the doctrine concerning the right ordering of sexuality is wrong. I am saying that this is a serious objection that makes it very hard for many people to see the beauty and mercy and grace of Catholic doctrine, and that it’s not immediately obvious that maintaining the doctrine about what sexuality ought to look like necessarily implies that those who fall short cannot receive the Eucharist.

To put it another way: a couple who recognize the sin and brokenness in the failure of prior marriage(s) and are seeking to live a godly life with each other now, or who (in the case of a gay couple) recognize that promiscuity and hedonism are destructive and are seeking to make their relationship approximate a godly marriage insofar as a same-sex marriage can, are clearly more akin spiritually to those of us who experience sin and brokenness but are able to repent and be forgiven and receive the sacraments (hypothetically in my case, if I go through with becoming Catholic!) than to a person who persists in behavior that is clearly incompatible with love of God and neighbor.

Or to put it simply and bluntly: I don’t have a problem seeing remarriage or gay cohabitation as sinful–I do have a problem seeing it as mortally sinful, because it seems clear that people who engage in these behaviors are capable of genuinely loving God and neighbor.

Edwin

 

[SyroMalankara]

It would depend on what the “sin” is or whether I even considered it to be a sin. A pedophile who continues to harm children would, of course, be more difficult to welcome than some others. A person who has amicably divorced a first spouse and remarried to someone else I would not have a problem welcoming since this does not harm anyone. I wouldn’t even consider it to be a sin (but then I’m not Catholic).

How in the world would you determine whether a divorce was amicable or antagonistic between the two persons, especially if only one of the two attend your congregation? Of course, the one you speak with would normally exempt themselves and say they were the innocent party of the two.

 

[seanman611]

One of the things that I struggle with on this forum is some of the posters hostility towards the divorced and remarried. I think every situation should be judged individually and not all should be lumped together. Do some people create these situations themselves? Certainly! However, there are some that have legitimate grievances and deserve a chance at happiness. Let us not lose sight of this and let us all try to be a little more merciful.

In response to what another poster said, I too find it ironic that a rapist, murderer, adulterer, etc. can confess, be absolved, and find themselves almost instantly welcomed back to the altar, however, no such mercy exists for those evil divorced and remarried folks!

EDIT: I say all of this as someone who has never been divorced. I have no axe to grind, just trying to understand.

 

[Magdalena59]

One of the things that I struggle with on this forum is some of the posters hostility towards the divorced and remarried. I think every situation should be judged individually and not all should be lumped together. Do some people create these situations themselves? Certainly! However, there are some that have legitimate grievances and deserve a chance at happiness. Let us not lose sight of this and let us all try to be a little more merciful.

In response to what another poster said, I too find it ironic that a rapist, murderer, adulterer, etc. can confess, be absolved, and find themselves almost instantly welcomed back to the altar, however, no such mercy exists for those evil divorced and remarried folks!

EDIT: I say all of this as someone who has never been divorced. I have no axe to grind, just trying to understand.

I agree with you that not all who have been married, divorced and remarried should be lumped together but that is what the annulment process in the Church does. It looks at your individual situation.

 

[Contarini]

One of the things that I struggle with on this forum is some of the posters hostility towards the divorced and remarried. I think every situation should be judged individually and not all should be lumped together. Do some people create these situations themselves? Certainly! However, there are some that have legitimate grievances and deserve a chance at happiness. Let us not lose sight of this and let us all try to be a little more merciful.

In response to what another poster said, I too find it ironic that a rapist, murderer, adulterer, etc. can confess, be absolved, and find themselves almost instantly welcomed back to the altar, however, no such mercy exists for those evil divorced and remarried folks!

EDIT: I say all of this as someone who has never been divorced. I have no axe to grind, just trying to understand.

It isn’t that divorced people are more evil, but that if they are remarried and sexually active then they can’t be absolved, because they are continuing to engage in the sinful behavior (sex outside of a valid marriage). And furthermore, in practice priests seem to assume that divorced and remarried people won’t be willing to give up sexual activity, and that divorced people will want to remarry. So divorced people in general seem to get the impression that they can’t receive communion just because they are divorced.

Clearly, at the bare minimum there are huge pastoral problems with how Catholic teaching is applied on this issue.

Edwin

 

[Magdalena59]

Fantastic! For years I’ve thought on and off about attending an Episcopal service (mass?) but have been too afraid to step out of my comfort zone. But for various cultural, political, and theological reasons (I won’t go over them all here, they’ve been discussed enough!), I feel like the Episcopal church is a better fit for me. I’m not getting any younger (I’m 39) and I feel that I need to get on with it instead of living with the feeling of biting my tongue when I’m around other (increasingly zealous) Catholic peers.
So…what can I expect at an Episcopal service? Do I speak with the reverend first, or do I simply attend? Catholic masses are usually pretty large congregations and no one approaches or notices if you are new or not. Is it the same in your church?

I just want to say, as someone who left the Catholic church years ago and has returned now, that it was one of the biggest mistakes I ever made. Once you get out there you will find there is no unity but confusion and strife and you will find yourself searching, searching, searching because you know inside something is missing but you can’t figure it out until you return. Don’t be surprised if you don’t find your self in a church hop situation.

Leaving the God and His Church, believe me, is not the answer.

It isn’t our truth we should be looking for but God’s truth. It may be hard to accept and understand sometimes but it is what we need for the salvation of our souls. Eternity is a long time.

There is no place like home.

Praying for you.

 

[SteveVH]

The first marriage was valid in which case the person is still married to his first spouse and the second marriage is null and void since it is not possible to be married to two people simultaneously.

This is the one that gets really sticky, IMO, especially when children from the second “marriage” are involved. I know a woman who wished to convert but, for reasons of personal safety she could not even contact her former spouse in order to begin the annulment process. He was actually involved in organized crime and her life was in danger. In the meantime she had two beautiful daughters with her second husband and they have a beautiful family. These are tough and painful situations and I don’t envy the priests who have to make these decisions.

 

[Magdalena59]

Greetings,
I thought I would relate my own experience. Hopefully it may add something to the discussion.
I am an adult convert to the Roman Catholic Church. I love the Catholic Church. Unlike many that I have noticed in the church, I believe and embrace all of its teachings. By this I am saying that I embrace the papacy, tradition, dogmas, beliefs, etc. I have no problem with celibate priests, no artificial contraception, no divorce, male clergy, pro life, stances on homosexuality, and all of the other usual points of contention that my fellow Catholics of my generation express. I expected to be Roman Catholic until the day I die.
Without going into much detail, after 18 years of a verbally/ emotionally abusive, and adulterous marriage I divorced my wife. This is not something that I expected to do. I expected to absorb the abuse for the rest of my life and return unconditional love much like some of the saints that I read about. I went to mass 3-4 times a week and went to adoration just to get the strength to last as long as I did. It worked for a long time. When I reached the end of my human endurance and realized that I just could not go on any longer, I divorced my wife.
I expected to try for an annulment and then see what God had planned for me. Even though I realized that I was allowed to continue receiving the Eucharist, I felt so guilty I just went up for a blessing. Before my divorce was even final, I started a relationship with an incredible woman. After my divorce was final, I married this person before a civil judge.
I intended to maybe be that person who continues to go to Mass to worship but just never gets the Eucharist. After about 9 months of not being able to to take the Eucharist, I stopped going to mass unless my kids were with me. I felt like I was a trespasser and that I was completely detached from what was going on. In confession they cannot absolve me because I am in a state of mortal sin that I have no intention of changing (by leaving my wife). Sooooo, unlike a murderer or rapist who can instantly repair their relationship with the church through confession, I am stuck indefinitely. I cannot express the pain that I feel because of this.
Out of desperation, I began attending an Episcopal Church. I disagree intellectually with much of what they believe. But they embraced me into their community. I cannot (from a theological standpoint) be 100% sure that I am truly receiving the body and blood of Christ there. However, I know 100% where I am not allowed to receive it.
I am not sure whether I even want to pursue an annulment at this point. Although I miss the Catholic Church, I am beginning to feel at home with all of the other refugees (former Catholics, etc.) find myself with in the Episcopal Church. This church family and my wife were what kept me going through the most difficult time of my life. I find myself humbled and in a situation that I never expected; amongst the divorcees, homosexuals, etc. that I used to feel were in a separate group than I was.
I am in my situation because of choices I made and I take responsibility for them. But I am just a human being who is weaker than I used to think I was. I am also finding that there may be life with Christ after being barred from getting the Sacraments in the Catholic church.
Unlike 99% of people who have left the Church, I did not go because I wanted to use a condom or felt that it was past time for a female priest. I just could not live up to the standards through my own human weakness.
I invite anyone to say anything about this post that they want, even if it is to tell me that I am going to hell for leaving the Church. Regardless of your stance, I would ask that you pray for me and all of the others that have left or are considering it. I hope that the original poster (or anyone) feels a little less alone by reading my experience.

Praying for you Lloyd. It sounds like a very difficult situation but after reading your post it seems like you know what you need to do. God’s love is always there and is merciful. His arms are open. I would highly suggest seeing a priest and start your annulment proceedings. You will never know unless you try. God is faithful and will help you through this. There is a reason you came across this thread. I think God is calling you to be reconciled with Him as He does all of us.

God bless.

 

[total_Catholic]

If you want your sermons to all be leftist, “social justice”, gay supporting mantras, then by all means have it. Noted Episcopal Bishop, term used loosely I may add, John Shelby Spong doesn’t even believe in the Virgin Birth or the Resurrection.

So, if that suits you, then by all means, go for it. I trust you’ll make the right decision.

 

[Contarini]

If you want your sermons to all be leftist, “social justice”, gay supporting mantras, then by all means have it. Noted Episcopal Bishop, term used loosely I may add, John Shelby Spong doesn’t even believe in the Virgin Birth or the Resurrection.

So, if that suits you, then by all means, go for it. I trust you’ll make the right decision.

Your description is not my experience of the Episcopal Church. And your contempt for “social justice” doesn’t say much for your theological reliability. It also makes your moniker of “total Catholic” a bit ironic, doesn’t it, given how prominent social justice is in Catholic teaching?

Of course Episcopalians often have some different views about social justice, and I am very suspicious of those views where they differ from Catholic teaching. But either you are dealing with stereotypes rather than with real experience of Episcopalianism or I have just been luckier than you. I’ve certainly heard sermons I’d describe as full of liberal ideology rather than the Gospel, but actually they have not been the norm in my experience.

Nor is John Shelby Spong the paradigmatic Episcopal bishop. The fact that he was never disciplined certainly says something about the doctrinal breadth and tolerance of the Episcopal Church (and I am not assuming that those things are always good), but it doesn’t say much about the normative teaching you would be likely to hear in an Episcopal parish.

Edwin

 

[total_Catholic]

I apologize if these links are not from a Catholic website, but here goes:

fellowshipoftheminds.com/2012/03/10/lesbian-episcopal-priest-calls-abortion-a-blessing/

blog.adw.org/2013/04/total-loss-file-a-prominent-episcopal-leader-denies-the-need-for-the-bodily-resurrection-of-jesus/

virtueonline.org/pennsylvania-parish-priests-practice-pagan-eucharistic-ceremony

Episcopal Church, all are welcome.

 

[total_Catholic]

Your description is not my experience of the Episcopal Church. **And your contempt for “social justice” doesn’t say much for your theological reliability. It also makes your moniker of “total Catholic” a bit ironic, doesn’t it, given how prominent social justice is in Catholic teaching?:**p

Of course Episcopalians often have some different views about social justice, and I am very suspicious of those views where they differ from Catholic teaching. But either you are dealing with stereotypes rather than with real experience of Episcopalianism or I have just been luckier than you. I’ve certainly heard sermons I’d describe as full of liberal ideology rather than the Gospel, but actually they have not been the norm in my experience.

Nor is John Shelby Spong the paradigmatic Episcopal bishop. The fact that he was never disciplined certainly says something about the doctrinal breadth and tolerance of the Episcopal Church (and I am not assuming that those things are always good), but it doesn’t say much about the normative teaching you would be likely to hear in an Episcopal parish.

Edwin

When the lack of clean air and clean water are TEC’s version of mortal sins, it isn’t my version of social justice that needs to be challenged. I dare you to find ANY mention of repentance in TEC’s presiding bishop’s “Lenten message”. There is none.

 

[lloydbirdman]

I appreciate the comments left by folks after reading my posting. I hope the original poster doesn’t feel as though I have taken attention away from their specific concerns. In answer to some of the points brought up and to provide further fodder for this discussion I would like to add the following:
-in response to the question of why not just pursue an annulment- Although I realize intellectually that my decisions put me in the position that I am now, I feel …hurt by not being able to participate fully in the worship life of my church when I needed it most. The Eucharist and confession are ways in which a Catholic gets grace and strength. I have found that to deny someone these central parts of Catholic existence is to exclude. I understand the reasons for the rules (in scripture and as a form of encouragement to stop sinful behavior) but emotionally I feel as though the Church turned its back on me. I understand that no one would ever say or feel that towards me. But folks, you must admit, in practice it is similiar to “shunning”. This is something I will have to come to peace with before I ever decide to return.
-I understand that, in theory, you can still participate in the Eucharist while not communing. In practice it makes you feel like you no longer belong…especially over a long time.
-My divorce took a year. The annulments here take 1.5 to 2 or more years. That will mean about 3 years without the sacraments…without that avenue of strength…without the body and blood of Christ…Friends, that is awful. I keep reflecting on when the Pharisees would always point out ways in which Christ and his followers and the people he was helping broke rules that were given to the people of Israel by God himself. And they were right! Christ never challenged whether the rules were right or not…he would just seem to say that they were missing the point of it all. I am in no way wanting to challenge the rightness of the rules of the Church…sometimes I just feel in my heart that, in some ways, other churches (Episcopal) do the mercy part a little better.
-my plans for my religious life failed. I have been humbled by finding myself in a group that I never thought I would belong in…people that have made failed to live up to the ideal and find themselves outside of the central worship of the Church with no possible way to repair it anytime soon. The Episcopal Church is more welcoming to folks that are “shipwrecked” like me.
-TotalCatholic- Most people in the Episcopal Church think Spong is a whack job. There also is not a huge amount of respect for the presiding bishop in my neck of the Episcopalian woods (Texas). The average Episcopalian is about as conservative as the average Catholic around here. A huge portion of people in my church are divorced Catholics
-Please continue to pray for me and others like me!

 

[ChurchSoldier]

-Please continue to pray for me and others like me!

Will do. May you find peace on your journey.

 

[cheezey]

I appreciate the comments left by folks after reading my posting. I hope the original poster doesn’t feel as though I have taken attention away from their specific concerns. In answer to some of the points brought up and to provide further fodder for this discussion I would like to add the following:
-in response to the question of why not just pursue an annulment- Although I realize intellectually that my decisions put me in the position that I am now, I feel …hurt by not being able to participate fully in the worship life of my church when I needed it most. The Eucharist and confession are ways in which a Catholic gets grace and strength. I have found that to deny someone these central parts of Catholic existence is to exclude. I understand the reasons for the rules (in scripture and as a form of encouragement to stop sinful behavior) but emotionally I feel as though the Church turned its back on me. I understand that no one would ever say or feel that towards me. But folks, you must admit, in practice it is similiar to “shunning”. This is something I will have to come to peace with before I ever decide to return.
-I understand that, in theory, you can still participate in the Eucharist while not communing. In practice it makes you feel like you no longer belong…especially over a long time.
-My divorce took a year. The annulments here take 1.5 to 2 or more years. That will mean about 3 years without the sacraments…without that avenue of strength…without the body and blood of Christ…Friends, that is awful. I keep reflecting on when the Pharisees would always point out ways in which Christ and his followers and the people he was helping broke rules that were given to the people of Israel by God himself. And they were right! Christ never challenged whether the rules were right or not…he would just seem to say that they were missing the point of it all. I am in no way wanting to challenge the rightness of the rules of the Church…sometimes I just feel in my heart that, in some ways, other churches (Episcopal) do the mercy part a little better.
-my plans for my religious life failed. I have been humbled by finding myself in a group that I never thought I would belong in…people that have made failed to live up to the ideal and find themselves outside of the central worship of the Church with no possible way to repair it anytime soon. The Episcopal Church is more welcoming to folks that are “shipwrecked” like me.
-TotalCatholic- Most people in the Episcopal Church think Spong is a whack job. There also is not a huge amount of respect for the presiding bishop in my neck of the Episcopalian woods (Texas). The average Episcopalian is about as conservative as the average Catholic around here. A huge portion of people in my church are divorced Catholics
-Please continue to pray for me and others like me!

Praying so much for you…

 

[commenter]

This is the one that gets really sticky, IMO, especially when children from the second “marriage” are involved. I know a woman who wished to convert but, for reasons of personal safety she could not even contact her former spouse in order to begin the annulment process. He was actually involved in organized crime and her life was in danger. In the meantime she had two beautiful daughters with her second husband and they have a beautiful family. These are tough and painful situations and I don’t envy the priests who have to make these decisions.

Every single case I have heard of is justified as an extreme exception, a unique instance. I have not been divorced, so it isn’t directly a temptation for me. But I am tempted in another way, and I constantly tell my conscience, well of course the Christian teaching is right, in general; but in MY situation, there are other factors, so the Church should adopt a **pastoral ** response - (“pastoral” means let me give in to my temptation) rather than a judgmental response (“judgmental” means resist the temptation).

We are forgetting that the Episcopal Church puts a strong emphasis on the importance of Tradition; and that their Tradition (as well as Scripture) strongly affirms indissolubility of marriage. This is not just a “Catholic” thing, like the papacy they threw out. Indissolubility of marriage is what Anglicans regarded as a universal, Christian belief, which Anglican theologians and bishops upheld as as Anglicans, as Episcopalians.

If a TEC church can toss overboard such a basic part of Anglican Tradition, it’s hard to see how they would be much different from the non-denominational congregation that sprang up in 2010, which says they are going to start from scratch, no traditions to bind us.

 

[Thorolfr]

We are forgetting that the Episcopal Church puts a strong emphasis on the importance of Tradition; and that their Tradition (as well as Scripture) strongly affirms indissolubility of marriage.

How can the indissolubility of marriage be a strong Anglican tradition considering that the Anglican church was founded precisely because of the desire of Henry VIII to dissolve his marriage to Catherine of Aragon?